238 réponses à ce sujet

[BraveVesperia]

What I don't get is how a spirit of compassion can justify the hundreds of people he's killed with me. Yeah, they were baddies, but shouldn't compassion feel even for baddies?

You can actually ask him about that on the spirit path, and he does say that the killing troubles him.

 

However, I suppose you can look at it like this - if a Venatori is capturing slaves, killing people, hollowing out Tranquils' skulls, etc, then killing that one Venatori is an act of compassion towards his/her victims (future and past). An act of compassion towards the Venatori themself would be teaching them that their actions are wrong and helping them atone. If they won't, then the former option is the only choice.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

So are you Cole's best friend?

 

When you first ask about him he says "Before you, Rhys was my best friend..." or am I just taking it on the wrong context?  And rather he means "Before (this whole inquisition business I am now participating in with) you, ..."

 

[Heidirs]

On my first playthrough, I went with Spirit Cole. I felt making him human would be changing him, and I didn't want to change who or what he was. I just wanted to help him get through what he was feeling. So spirit made the most sense to me. I was delighted by the cutscenes you get with Spirit Cole - forgiving the Templar and the dinner in Val Roux. But when I got to the end and Cole made himself forget the real Cole... 

 

I feel like Cole is who he is because of what happened to the Real Cole. Cole chose to leave the fade because of his desire to help Cole. In making himself forget, he seems to lose a part of himself - exactly what I was trying NOT to let happen by going with the spirit side.

 

So, on my second playthrough, I went with Human Cole. And while I don't like the cutscenes with the Templar or the Val Roux dinner as much, the final scene with Cole where he realizes he did make a different and healed the Real Cole's hurt is worth it for me. Cole still wants to help people and still maintains the memory of the Real Cole, which to me makes up so much of who he is. Cole maintains himself as Human in ways he doesn't as a Spirit, which is why I have to prefer the Human side (even with a disapproving Solas).

[Cha0sEff3ct]

On my first playthrough, I went with Spirit Cole. I felt making him human would be changing him, and I didn't want to change who or what he was. I just wanted to help him get through what he was feeling. So spirit made the most sense to me. I was delighted by the cutscenes you get with Spirit Cole - forgiving the Templar and the dinner in Val Roux. But when I got to the end and Cole made himself forget the real Cole... 

 

I feel like Cole is who he is because of what happened to the Real Cole. Cole chose to leave the fade because of his desire to help Cole. In making himself forget, he seems to lose a part of himself - exactly what I was trying NOT to let happen by going with the spirit side.

 

So, on my second playthrough, I went with Human Cole. And while I don't like the cutscenes with the Templar or the Val Roux dinner as much, the final scene with Cole where he realizes he did make a different and healed the Real Cole's hurt is worth it for me. Cole still wants to help people and still maintains the memory of the Real Cole, which to me makes up so much of who he is. Cole maintains himself as Human in ways he doesn't as a Spirit, which is why I have to prefer the Human side (even with a disapproving Solas).

Solas disapproves of everythingggggg 

[TheBlackSwordsman]

Human Cole is my bro

[GoneGrimdark]

I kinda hope if you made him more human he becomes romanceable in the next game! Plus some time will probably have passed so he'll be a little more worldly and knowledgeable.

[Korva]

For the sake philosophical argument, think of it this way: The whole "he willfully manifested himself as a young man" because he couldn't save the real Cole... well in a way he did. He took the name, the memories, and the shape of Cole. If our Cole had not done what he did, no one would ever have known what had happened, would not have remembered the poor boy, who died of starvation in the dark dungeon of the Spire. And if he turns back into a spirit... He makes himself forget the "real" Cole. Which would eventually turn into everyone forgetting what happened, forgetting Cole entirely. What then, would have been the point of it?

 

You make it sound as if the spirit that became "our" Cole has no value of his own, that the only thing that really matters is him aping a human, not his own existence. Of course that impression could be wrong, and I'm sorry if so, but it's an impression that I do get a lot from those who don't seem to see any appeal in the spirit-path, don't seem to think that making Cole more human means he loses anything of particular worth, or seem to think that the spirit-path essentially makes him a non-person. Many of us who prefer making him more spirit-like do acknowledge that either choice means sacrifice and, while positive for Cole, is also bittersweet.

 

IMO the point of it all is that he tried to save that poor kid, even though he failed ... but at least the "real" Cole wasn't alone in the end. Just being held by Compassion in his last moments is likely more kindness he had ever known in his entire life, as horrible as that thought is. That is worth enough in and of itself, like every act of care. The point is also that this experience was the catalyst for the evolution of an utterly unique creature ... but again, the catalyst isn't what that creature should remain defined by. He is his own being.

 

As I said before when it comes to this choice, I think there's some great and really touching writing for both sides, but my preference for the spirit path means stepping away from the impulse to say that "more like me equals better" and "different means inferior". I really like the idea of trying to meet Cole halfway in finding himself and his place instead of making him do all the work, the idea of having to challenge myself to understand him better ... and, through him, gain a better understanding of spirits and the Fade in general. Is it sad that he changes from the endearing character we first get to know? Sure, but the same is true for the more-human path. Is it harder to relate to him this way? Of course, but it's also worth it, and he is worth it. Maybe above all else, that is what I want him to know, especially after all the crap he's been through in this alien, often hostile mortal world. That is why the quote in my sig, the "(thank you) for believing in me", brought tears to my eyes because I was so happy that the writer recognized my intent and let Cole recognize it too.

 

Cole would probably always maintain a part of his spirit, Compassion, while becoming more human. Yes, becoming human is painful for him. But in the long run, he would live on literally in the real Cole's name. If he figured that out, wouldn't he think it was worth it? Wouldn't you? Cause I sure would.

 

Not me. The original Cole is long dead and gone. It's impossible to bring him back, and I don't think it could ever be truly healthy for anyone -- human or spirit -- to deny their own identity for the sake of pretending to be someone else. Everyone -- again, human or spirit -- has value in and of themselves and I'd rather see that unique existence shine on its own merits. And if it was me that someone tried to live on for? Absolutely not. I wouldn't want to be that sort of burden or the cause of someone being not-themselves. It wouldn't make me any less dead. Remember me if you can, let me go if you can't bear it, but be yourself above all.

 

He was killing people because of his compassion.

 

No, he killed them because he was perverted from his nature, broken, and so utterly confused he didn't know who and what he was. That is the whole point of his repeated insistence that you or Cullen or Cassandra or the templars must kill him if he ever becomes a demon "again".

 

More-spirit-Cole isn't a simplistic one-trick pony. More alien, yes, harder to relate to, yes, more limited in some ways yet more capable in others, yes ... but he's still Cole. Like Solas says, contact with the mortal world lets spirits learn (probably because static reality doesn't bend to one's will like the Fade does). And there's a lot that springs from his compassion -- for example, it's his nature that allows Cole to display a first glimpse of understanding humor if you make him more spirit-like. Compassion, more than any other virtue except wisdom, is one that lends itself to engaging with others and new concepts. Of course he'll never understand some things like humans do, or want/need things that many humans do ... but humans don't understand everything that spirits feel and do and understand, either. It doesn't mean that either spirits or humans are deficient, just different. They can still bond and learn if both sides make the effort.

[sim-ran]

Gotta say, it shocks me so many people prefer making him more human, given all the complaints I remember hearing about making the geth individuals in ME3.

Well that's totally different. ME2 is your real introduction to geth as something more than robot baddies, and you get all this fascinating insight into their very alien outlook. Legion is quite emphatic about the Geth having their own path to walk and it is in the opposite direction of humanity.

ME3 threw all that out the window and just made them human.

Cole on the other hand is a spirit that crossed into our world, took on human form, and had no objections to becoming more human. And all his interest seems to be focused on the people in Thedas, so he's very much joined our world and left the fade behind him.

'Becoming human' is a focus of his narrative from the start. Become human was tacked into the Geth AFTER introducing them as something else in the ME2 narrative. And the picture painted in ME2 was awesome so it sucked when they unceremoniously dropped it.

[sim-ran]

Gotta say, it shocks me so many people prefer making him more human, given all the complaints I remember hearing about making the geth individuals in ME3.

Well that's totally different. ME2 is your real introduction to geth as something more than robot baddies, and you get all this fascinating insight into their very alien outlook. Legion is quite emphatic about the Geth having their own path to walk and it is in the opposite direction of humanity.

ME3 threw all that out the window and just made them human.

Cole on the other hand is a spirit that crossed into our world, took on human form, and had no objections to becoming more human. And all his interest seems to be focused on the people in Thedas, so he's very much joined our world and left the fade behind him.

'Becoming human' is a focus of his narrative from the start. Become human was tacked into the Geth AFTER introducing them as something else in the ME2 narrative. And the picture painted in ME2 was awesome so it sucked when they unceremoniously dropped it.

[happy_daiz]

I went with human twice, then spirit once. He seems much happier as a human, so I will probably keep going that route, in upcoming play-throughs.

 

Sidenote, I'm so happy I changed him over to an archer. His survivability makes him much more likely to leave the bench, now.

[Korva]

Melee DPS is a pain in this game, yes, due to both pitiful AI and 360° AoE. I felt really bad for making him an archer for a while, too, because it's so OOC ... but until you get the masterwork materials to give him at least one and preferably both of guard-on-hit and Walking Fortress on hit, poor Cole is basically a wet paper bag.

 

Once he does get that stuff, though, he gets really scary -- appropriately so, given his speed, invisibility and mercy-driven intuition for how to end it fast. He may well be the most dangerous companion in a fight, lore-wise.

 

(And you can read his story as being about "becoming human", but it's up to interpretation. That's part of what I like about him, both paths are equally viable and "speak" to different themes and priorities.)

[happy_daiz]

Melee DPS is a pain in this game, yes, due to both pitiful AI and 360° AoE. I felt really bad for making him an archer for a while, too, because it's so OOC ... but until you get the masterwork materials to give him at least one and preferably both of guard-on-hit and Walking Fortress on hit, poor Cole is basically a wet paper bag.

 

Once he does get that stuff, though, he gets really scary -- appropriately so, given his speed, invisibility and mercy-driven intuition for how to end it fast. He may well be the most dangerous companion in a fight, lore-wise.

 

(And you can read his story as being about "becoming human", but it's up to interpretation. That's part of what I like about him, both paths are equally viable and "speak" to different themes and priorities.)

 

Ooh, I never thought of adding Walking Fortress to a dagger! I shall have to try that! I'll also switch Cole back over to daggers, once I get better materials. 

 

Thanks for the tip!

 

I've been curious if and how those skills work, from other classes, when added to weapons. Like...if it's worthwhile to add hidden blades to a crafted staff, or Unbowed to daggers, etc. So those actually work? Are they gimped, due to lack of strength/dexterity/etc.?

[Korva]

Thanks to some suggestions in the main Cole-related thread on the story forum, I had Cole with guard-on-hit on one dagger, Hidden Blades on the other, and Walking Fortress on his armor. It worked really well, even though his AI pretty much refused to flank and I had to babysit him into position every time his target moved. (It didn't take long before I stopped bothering. His damage was impressive even without the flanking bonus.)

 

My sword & board Champion Inquisitor had Hidden Blades on her weapon for extra damage, too, and I can confirm that it triggers quite a bit. I've no idea about the mechanics behind the damage numbers for "cross-class" masterwork effects, but I'd guess it just uses the appropriate damage modifiers (i.e. Strength for my warrior).

[Fireheart]

Blood magic. It can force spirits or demons into obedience, and if a spirit is made to act against its nature it can be broken into a demon. Remember Solas' personal mission and how those f*ckwit mages turned his spirit-of-wisdom friend into a pride demon? That is exactly what Cole fears, someone turning him into a monster. He's much less concerned about losing his free will and possibly even his personality than he is about hurting other people. Since he trusts Solas not to make him hurt innocents, he thinks being bound by Solas would prevent other mages from messing with him, and thus keep people safe from what said other mages would make him do.

 

The Grey Wardens at Adamant create their demon army through binding, too ... and in turn end up bound to Corypheus themselves, since mortals can be messed with via blood magic as well.

But why did he say someone should bind me too? I guess he was just speaking figuratively?   *shrugs*

[Korva]

But why did he say someone should bind me too? I guess he was just speaking figuratively?   *shrugs*

 

Remember that he's in distress and not exactly thinking straight. His line of thought is "blood magic could break me and make me hurt people" --> "I want Solas to bind me because I trust him not to make me hurt people". If you point out to him that blood magic could twist everyone into doing terrible things, then it's no surprise that he applies the same logic to everyone else too. If everyone is controlled by someone trustworthy, then no one is at risk of being controlled by evil mages. It ... makes a certain amount of sense if you look at it from that angle, but of course it's not a practical or pleasant idea for pretty much everyone else.

[Nerys]

I read Asunder before I played DA:I, and I just love the character of Cole. I still don't know which decision is better for him, though I have played it through both ways. I agree with both sides on this. He is my favorite companion in DA:I. No matter what I have planned, he always seems to end up in my party  He is sneaky that way.

[Qun00]

In this first playthrough I just took Varric's word for it and made Cole more human.

But then I watched a video showing the spirit option and honestly, he seems happier that way.

Helping people is the only thing Cole really cares about. Having him be human hinders him from fulfilling that purpose to the extent he'd like to.

[nikitalauncher]

In this first playthrough I just took Varric's word for it and made Cole more human.

Varric can be a convincing bugger.

 

Solas: "Well, if you ask me--"

Inquisitor: "Shhh. I want to hear more from Varric about his expertise in making spirits happy."

[Kalas Magnus]

human.

 

isnt that spirits want. to expirience the world.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well that's totally different. ME2 is your real introduction to geth as something more than robot baddies, and you get all this fascinating insight into their very alien outlook. Legion is quite emphatic about the Geth having their own path to walk and it is in the opposite direction of humanity.

ME3 threw all that out the window and just made them human.

Cole on the other hand is a spirit that crossed into our world, took on human form, and had no objections to becoming more human. And all his interest seems to be focused on the people in Thedas, so he's very much joined our world and left the fade behind him.

'Becoming human' is a focus of his narrative from the start. Become human was tacked into the Geth AFTER introducing them as something else in the ME2 narrative. And the picture painted in ME2 was awesome so it sucked when they unceremoniously dropped it.

 

Really dude? Totally different? C'mon, I can easily draw many similarities.

 

Geth had their interesting hive-mind thing, yes. Did not Cole have his own interesting thing to him, too? He read people when he sensed despair and tried to ease the pain of those people. And for spirits to live among mortals that freely is unheard of in this setting (just as much as a geth like Legion).

 

Also, the Reaper-code did not make geth "human." It made them fully-formed AI (as opposed to data files that lacked sentience without networking to many others). It made them more like humans, sure, but still very different beings. And Legion expressed admiration for what the Code did and desire to become like that, perhaps even more so than Cole ever did for human nature.

[Raunien]

Even though making him more human is the right thing to do, making him more of a spirit is best. He returns to his original purpose, heal the hurts -- unchained, unbound, and free, he can do this better. It's a sacrifice on his part, but sacrifices don't necessarily mean a bad thing. *cough cough Grey Wardens cough cough* It is a sacrifice that must be made for the betterment of humanity. Also, this way Cole, the real Cole, can finally rest in peace.

[fhs33721]

human.

 

isnt that spirits want. to expirience the world.

Wrong. It's mostly only demons who want to "experience" the mortal world. And "experiencing the world" usually ends in pain for all mortals that get involved.

 

And I choose the spirtit path. Mostly just because it irks me to no end when stories introduce interesting and vastly alien (read as different from human) characters only to have them become more human and then lazily try to sell that as "positive character developement". Thankfully this can be avoided with Cole.

[guigaccess]

Am I allowed to revive a thread this old? Hope so... came late to DA:I and just left the game at this point. Tried both ways up to the cutscene, but didn't made a final decision.

 

There isn't a right answer, it is more of what you think is better for him.

 

Letting him become a spirit again is to chose his happiness. In his scene at Val Royeaux it is obvious how happy he is now that he lost his human side. Without the human in him, he is back at his pure Compassion self, molded solely by the will to help others and finding fulfillment in this. There in no inner conflict, there is purity and, in it, peace. Not being a human, he doesn't share the pain of others anymore when accessing them, he can help them without suffering at the same time. The problem is this means he lost his ability to empathize, he can identify the problem and correct it, but all in a very detached way, he is not connecting with others anymore. He becomes complete, happy, but similar to a robot that is controled by one single directive - although with a sense of fulfillment.

That aside, chosing this path, as Cole states, makes him glad for seeing the Inquisitor accepted him for what he truly was without trying to change that (meaning that he saw his human side as something alien, not a true part of him).

 

Making him become a human is chosing his development. At Val Royeaux he is nowhere as happy as in the above, it is a bittersweet scene because he is not a simple spirit moved by one only feeling, but a complex creature with a whole plethora of emotions he is only learning about. And even once he gets used to it, he will never be as happy as if he remained a spirit, because that's what being a living creature is. You are filled with conflicts, the beauty of it comes from this complexity and everything it entails and not the purity you find in spirits. He is able to evolve, learn, form real bonds with others and connect to the world in a much richier way with a much deeper understanding of his surroundings.

In the talk, he admits he actually feared changes because he learned it meant losing what he already had, but is thankful for the oportunity to see changes for what they are - meaning that even though he didn't wanted to change, it was simply because he was afraid of it.

 

As I see it, making him a human allows him to evolve, but maybe that's only because I am judging it from a human's perspective. As Solas said to Varric, you shouldn't judge a spirit based on the concepts of what is good and right for a human.

This option, however, bothers me for two reasons: first, it takes away from Cole what makes him a unique character and makes him just another human, and, more importantly, I don't think being a human was ever his intention. It was simply a failed attempt to help the original Cole. He didn't became (half) a human because he longed for it, because he wanted to feel what was like, but simply because he thought this would help someone else... and it didn't. It was a misstep, an error, and he was stuck with it.

 

On the other hand, allowing him to become a pure spirit would be the same as killing all the emotions he acquired and would only develop much further if he became a complete human. Kieran says that being without magic is a sad thing, it's like missing a sense and you are unable to perceive an important part of the reality, living always in ignorance. Allowing Compassion to become Compassion again is similar to that, in my eyes; it is the same as handicapping Cole and taking away from him this new and empowering ability to elaborate the world from a much more complex perspective and truly connect to it (soft lobotomy?).

 

 

 

Really hard decision, but I think I will go with the spirit path because I believe judging what is better for him from a human's POV is inherently wrong. We should try to look at it from the perspective of a spirit and I think Solas is the best one to listen on this. Also, how happy was Cole in Val Royeaux as a spirit? If he can live forever in that state of complete extasis, I can't be sad for him. 

 

Also, I think he can always revert it and go the human way again if he really wants it, the opposite... not so much.

[Erstus]

He's a demon in my eyes. Exorcise and purge him if I had the opition