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[Lakmoots]

This is not quest related, and does not contain any game spoilers, but it *MAY* be considered to contain "metagame spoilers".

I have been thinking alot about the truth of the Black City and the details we are given about Arlathan.

Now, I have come to some rather nutty conclusions - please think of me as a DA conspiracy theorist.

I loooove the Chantry version, all dark and gothic. However, there are far too many times when people say in-game that it "may be allegorical" for anyone to take this as an actual explanation that won't be recinded or revealed.

Now, most of my following theory is taken from the Dalish Elf origin, the details of Elven Gods and Arlathan, and what you see from the spirit in the Ancient Ruins (via the AW spirit).

Here we go:

Arlathan was sunk far beneath the ground by the Tevinter Magisters. We also know that Arlathan itself, and other ancient Elven cities, were shared with humans, or had human populations - even the Dalish do not know that, though, and it is not recorded generally.

The Ancient Elven Gods were divided into goodies, and Forgotten Ones, who are said to be entombed underground or "in the abyss" by a trick of the Wolf God. We do not know their names of identities.

The visions from the mirror mention a "city turned black" and the AW spirit mentions a nameless evil that trashed their city.

So... my shaky thesis is that the Forgotten Ones and the Tevinter gods are in fact facets of the same beings, and that the Magisters breaking into the Golden City is an allegory of something they found in sunken Arlathan.

I reckon (sorta-kinda) that the Darkspawn are in fact, somehow a remnant of some old nameless evil of the Elves - and that the connection between the first people and the Tevinter is closer than Thedan history has recorded.

There are quite a few holes and gaps in this, namely that Arlathan was sunk about 1000 years before the Tevinter first tried to access the Golden City, but still... I think they actually went to Arlathan, and that it is still down there, and that the Dragon Gods are the same Gods as the Forgotten Ones... heck, humans may even be somehow related or connected to elves... even though they are said to appear from another land.

Jus sayin, yknow...

[Bann Duncan]

Hmm. Well I can definitely see some connexion between the 'Forgotten Ones' and the 'Old Gods' in the lore, although I haven't yet met the spirit for AW, which I plan to do in my next playthrough (as an Elven mage.)

[Wowlock]

You dont wanna miss the ruins really, Arcane Warrior Spec , good old elven spirits and more and more ancient stuff



There is too much to discover.

[Lakmoots]

C'mon...



Surely I am not the only "crazy conspiracy nut job" on this board...

[electricfish]

*Edit* Lol, I should read more carefully before I post. Maybe Arlathan isn't the Black City, but merely the place where the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones lay dormant before the Tevinter folks found them. 1000 years of cultivating worship and plotting for *something* can go a long way in a dragon's lifetime. The Black City might have been rival to Arlathan, or a "rediscovered" city found by information from the Old Gods when they decided to begin their plot to take it over for whatever reason. The "seat" of the good Elvish gods, which might have included the human's Maker?

Modifié par Zorr Crew, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:31 .

[Lakmoots]

Zorr Crew wrote...

*Edit* Lol, I should read more carefully before I post. Maybe Arlathan isn't the Black City, but merely the place where the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones lay dormant before the Tevinter folks found them. 1000 years of cultivating worship and plotting for *something* can go a long way in a dragon's lifetime. The Black City might have been rival to Arlathan, or a "rediscovered" city found by information from the Old Gods when they decided to begin their plot to take it over for whatever reason. The "seat" of the good Elvish gods, which might have included the human's Maker?

Yes - I think something similar to this.

That the Elven Gods include a "facet" of the Maker, and that the Forgotten Ones and the Dragon Gods are essentially the same...

It is too easy: Forgotten Ones are bound beneath the earth - Dragon Gods are bound beneath the earth...

Heck... I even think that the Maker could be the Elven Trickster God... who tricked all the others into imprisonment...

Thus leading to a new age of Monotheism.

In the very least, the story of the Trickster is a religious analogy as to the rise of Monotheism in Thedas.

That, and the fact that Arlathan was sunk beneath the ground... and it was a "city turned black" according to the Mirror.

[draxynnus]

This discussion looks strangely familiar somehow...

[Maferath]

It is interesting to note that the elven Mirror became an actual source of the Taint, presumably just from being broken. Actually, for all we know, it could have been infected with the Taint long before the first Blight happened.... which would be kind of a big hole in the Chantry version.

Modifié par Maferath, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:29 .

[Lakmoots]

draxynnus wrote...

This discussion looks strangely familiar somehow...

HA!

If ideas could only be had once, then it would be a dead world!!

Although... it isn't exactly the same argument...

Except for something said by some guy called "draxynnus"... 

[rsbrehm]

Well it has occured to me that Arlathan may be in fact the Golden City.  The elves put the city in the fade (metaphorically sunk) in order to keep out the Tevinter.  OR Its possible the elves lived in the Fade before they met humans and the reason they started dying is because they left it.  The mages used the mirrors for communication with the elves (who were in the golden city) and, after the elves cut them off, the Tevinter retaliated by opening a portal into the city. 

I don't buy into the chantry stories (obviously the whole story is fiction ) but I get the feeling in context all of the chantry "lore" was written after the fact.

Any thoughts?


-Shaun

Modifié par rsbrehm, 15 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Vicious]

For what it's worth, Avernus believes that the ultimate truth of the taint does indeed lie within the Black City.



As Arlathan being the Black City, why not? It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than any other theory, like the Chantry's which makes zero sense and reeks of 'this is the truth because I say so!' dogma.

[rsbrehm]

It would certainly fit. Considering the Chantry priestesses in the game are rogues then none of them could be trusted lol (Jowan's girlfriend, and Lilianna.) I'd say they were all using religion as a tool. Its rather harmless when used as a peace keeping tool, but as the history goes they also used it as a tool for making war.

-Dragon worshipping mages learn of interdimensional creatures (elves)
-Elves entertain notions with humans until it gets dangerous
-Elves leave humans
-Humans learn from the dragons how to defeat the elves
-Humans kill elves for revenge.

Makes for a better story than the Andraste crap. Unless Andreste really was a mage who had compassion on the elves and decided to fight against the Tevinter on their behalf. That would be a good story too. As for the "maker" version a Supreme being wouldn't be so lame.

Now the ultimate antagonist would have to be the Dragons. They taught the magic to the Tevinter and I bet they planned the whole thing from the beginning. An army of mindless killers under the control of a Dark-Magic empowered Dragon? Looks like the dragons are the sole beneficiary in the blight.

-Shaun

Modifié par rsbrehm, 15 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[rsbrehm]

I finished the Witch Hunt DLC. Seems like this is all fitting together as we had suspected

[Kolikeos]

Nice theory. Although I wasn't aware of (or didn't remember) all he background information you posted, the "Old Gods = Forgotten Ones" is something I should have thought of myself.

[Sagar DKar]

See under community creations "The truth of Thedas and the liars that keep them".  It discusses this very subject of the Golden City.

[Daxne Kettel_]

Sagar DKar wrote...

See under community creations "The truth of Thedas and the liars that keep them".  It discusses this very subject of the Golden City.

You want to know my opinion? I don't think the Black City exists. Never did, it doesn't now, and it probably never will. Remember that when we enter the Fade, we mostly do it when we dream. The spirits that live in the Fade change the landscape to copy what they see in the minds of us "mortals." Given how the Chantry says that the Black City is high, out of reach, and inaccessible, it seems pretty much impossible that anyone could ever get there. The Chantry says that the Magisters from the Tevinter Imperium somehow found a way to get there, and tainted it with their sinful pride, and were cast back into their own realm as the first darkspawn. Given how the Chantry despises the Imperium, and that the story fuels their own beliefs about how blood magic is "evil," and especially given the fact that Andraste herself seemed to just pull the idea out of her butt, I don't buy this version. I'm content to sit with the idea that we don't really know where the darkspawn are actually from, or where the taint comes from, or why they attack us. We'll just have to wait for future installments to find out, won't we?

Back to the Black City. Regarding my earlier comment about how spirits change the Fade according to the minds that they observe, and given that the Chantry is the biggest influence in Thedas right now, it's obvious that their tale will intrigue others, and when they go to sleep at night, and hear about the Fade, they probably wonder if they'll see the Black City there. Well, the spirits have studied their minds, so in goes the Black City. So, yes. The Black City is just conjured up because spirits see it in our minds, and so in it goes.

Think about it. How come spirits never once mention it? If it was an ever-present thing all the time, wouldn't the spirits notice it? It's pretty easy. Just look up at the sky. There. That's my take on the Black City.

[Frolk]

Interesting thought, Daxne. I guess I'm still not really sure how much of the Fade is the dreamer's subjective experience and how much of it exists independent of the dreamers. The thing about the Black City is that Dalish and dwarven characters, who are not Andrastians, still see it. I suppose that this can be explained by the fact that there are a lot of Andrastians in Thedas and that their thoughts influence the Fade in some objective sense.

But I think that Lakmoots' theory is also pretty intriguing. We know that it is possible to physically enter the Fade with the right sort of magic; I can imagine that powerful magic could transport a whole city like Arlathan as well.

[Navasha]

Performing some serious thread necromancy here, but am replaying the series and really focusing on the lore and trying to put it all in perspective.

I was examining the timelines and had similar thoughts about a possible connection between Arlathan and the Black City.

We know that Arlathan was destroyed by the young Tevinter Imperium and that the city was sunk underground. One possibility is that it wasn't sunk, but rather transported to the Fade. Whether this was done by the Tevinters or by the ancient elves themselves in perhaps an attempt to save the city. Another possibility is that a sort of Shadow of Arlathan was maintained within the fade. A golden city that helped maintain the connection between the fade and Thedas. Maybe this is why the elves were immortal. In that case, the destruction of Arlathan might have been the cause of the corruption of the Golden City and its turning black and corrupt.

Corypheus does say, that when they got there it was already black. Its possible that the destruction of Arlathan severed the connection which gave the elves their immortality and caused the corruption that tainted the Tevinters when they arrived. They then brought back the taint to the real world creating the Darkspawn.

Ok... just random thoughts and I thought some thread necromancy might be better than creating a new thread in the DA:I forum.

[Jeffonl1]

That's really interesting - it ties some loose ends together (at least for me)
I always thought it would have made a great game or DLC to play out the destruction of Aralathan; a fade connection would have enriched the storyline

[hwd]

Sinking a city into a ground would be manageable with enough mages I imagine, but how would the Tevinter Imperium magi have enough power to transport a city into another dimension? Given that they weren't very experienced with magic at the time. However that's an interesting theory that the elves' immortality is tied to the fate of their city.

[Navasha]

hwd wrote...

Sinking a city into a ground would be manageable with enough mages I imagine, but how would the Tevinter Imperium magi have enough power to transport a city into another dimension? Given that they weren't very experienced with magic at the time. However that's an interesting theory that the elves' immortality is tied to the fate of their city.

Well, we know that the Tevinters often used the blood of their slaves to power their spells.   What if enough blood mages used all that immortal elven blood from all the citizens of the city?  

A sort of 'salting the earth' type of scenario.   Not just conquest of the city, but a statement to all the elves, or all the world?   A display of power?