145 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is ridiculous. What exactly is there to fault? Sexual attraction is far beyond anyone's ability to control; the only thing that matters is how you react to these feelings. Unless you're totally devoid of any sexuality, you yourself have these same kinds of thoughts, and there's nothing you can do about them, all you can do is show discretion in what you say and how you behave. If anyone's at fault, it would be the Inquisitor for allowing Cole to stick around, despite his rather invasive ability to sift through people's inner thoughts and then blab them to everyone.

 

The way we think is not the way we sit and write a journal. These thoughts manifest themselves spontaneously in our minds and we can't erase them.

People can control their thoughts, words, and actions. We wouldn't have civilizations if we couldn't. Everything man-made you see right now wouldn't exist if we couldn't control ourselves. And there is a huge difference between thinking someone is pretty and fantasizing about how someone feels under their clothes. 

 

 

If you encourage him to be more spirit like, you go to an inn in Orlais with him.  He disappears and reappears several times around the inn encouraging people with his words.  On at least one of those, confident, and I think two of them, they were about unrequited love or a romantic relationship.  One, specifically, was something to the effect of, "You wonder if she feels the same about you.  You should talk to her because she does....."  Or something to that effect.  It's totally Cole's M.O. to try to make people happy.  I cannot imagine any other reason for him to ask Blackwall if he's going to pursue her and then tell him that he should hear what she thinks if he wasn't encouraging him.  And, given that we know that he knows what she's thinking, it's because she's interested back.  I can't imagine any other way to interpret that scene.

Ah. I always make him more human, so I didn't know that. 

 

"No relationship forms" is not the same thing as "Josephine is uninterested in Blackwall".  You seem to be interpreting the former as the latter.

I have never once said she is uninterested. I said no actual relationship forms between them, which is objectively true, and that he acts like a stalker, which is subjectively true. 

 

 

If said out loud, absolutely.

 

But it's not.  It's just a thought, kept to himself and not acted upon. It's a harmless fantasy.  The same as any number of people think when they see someone they are attracted to.  And talking to Blackwall, it seems his attraction to her is more than simply physical anyway.

 

It's actually kind of sad for him, as the shame of his past may very well be what's keeping him from talking to Josephine.

To use a comparison, a racist is still a racist even if they keep their racist thoughts to themselves. Likewise, a stalker is still a stalker even if they keep those kinds of thoughts to themselves. 

 

And if that's why he doesn't do anything, good. After what he's done, he doesn't deserve happiness in any way, shape, and/or form. 

 

 

If none of us every thought about what another might be like in a sensual, sexual way, the species would not ever propagate. You only get together with a significant other because you feel attracted to them and with that attraction comes those sensual thoughts. It's part of what your pheromones and hormones do to you. Part of being human is learning how to control those thoughts and urges and how they manifest in your actual behavior to everyone else. When thoughts and urges become action is when the boundaries can be crossed. Everything else is your own private world ... unless you have someone like Cole to air them for you.

Nonsense. People form relationships for reasons other than them finding the other person physically attractive. Heck, they can form relationships with people they find physically unattractive. 

 

 

 

So....you've never had pervy thoughts about ANYONE???? Ever?

As a matter of fact, no I have not. What's your point? 

 

Actually... Josephine IS interested in Blackwall. Like a lot. How do I know that? Well... After hearing one of these conversation, Inquistor can talk with Josephine about that. And I think there is a way to brought them together, but only if Blackwall is freed.

Again, no you can't. Rainier does not duel Otranto like the Inquisitor can if romancing Josephine, so she ends up getting married to Otranto. 

[Super Drone]

 

Nonsense. People form relationships for reasons other than them finding the other person physically attractive. Heck, they can form relationships with people they find physically unattractive. 

 

You might wanna at least clarify for the people you are arguing with that you are kinda unsympathetic/unused to the way verisexuals think and feel.  It would help bridge the communication barrier.

[jellobell]

People can control their thoughts, words, and actions. We wouldn't have civilizations if we couldn't. Everything man-made you see right now wouldn't exist if we couldn't control ourselves. And there is a huge difference between thinking someone is pretty and fantasizing about how someone feels under their clothes. 

Look, perhaps you don't personally experience feelings of sexual attraction, or fantasize about people in that way, but that doesn't mean that those kinds of thoughts are wrong or criminal. That's ridiculous. So long as you do not act on those thoughts or voice them aloud (unless the other person wants you to, of course) then they're just a part of being human. There's nothing wrong with Blackwall being attracted to Josephine, and it never would've come up if not for Cole (he's adorable, but he has the habit of voicing aloud thoughts that people would rather have stayed private). He never acts like anything other than a gentleman towards her. And in fact, Josephine is hinted at being attracted to him as well. 

[InstantNoodlez]

But what about Lord Otranto?

[banhmi87]

They always bring up the option to make the Inquisitor ask Josephine about Leliana. No! Inquisitor! You should instead be worried about Blackwall

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You might wanna at least clarify for the people you are arguing with that you are kinda unsympathetic/unused to the way verisexuals think and feel.  It would help bridge the communication barrier.

Except I'm not unsympathetic or unused to the way verisexuals think. The line you quoted was explained to me by a verisexual person.

 

 

Look, perhaps you don't personally experience feelings of sexual attraction, or fantasize about people in that way, but that doesn't mean that those kinds of thoughts are wrong or criminal. That's ridiculous. So long as you do not act on those thoughts or voice them aloud (unless the other person wants you to, of course) then they're just a part of being human. There's nothing wrong with Blackwall being attracted to Josephine, and it never would've come up if not for Cole (he's adorable, but he has the habit of voicing aloud thoughts that people would rather have stayed private). He never acts like anything other than a gentleman towards her. And in fact, Josephine is hinted at being attracted to him as well. 

Imaging how someone you are not in a relationship feels naked is wrong. 

Other companions comment on it as well, for example Sera, Varric, and Vivienne. Cole isn't the only one who brings it up, and the others explain what he does via actions. 

[KaiserShep]

Imaging how someone you are not in a relationship feels naked is wrong.

 

Sweet sea-splitting Moses. Wat.

 

Imagining what someone looks like naked is an automatic response to physical attraction.I have a very active imagination and I do it all the time, and even if I wanted to stop (which I don't), there's simply no way to accomplish this. The idea simply exists and runs on its own.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But what about Lord Otranto?

If you don't romance Josephine, he marries her. 

 

Sweet sea-splitting Moses. Wat.

 

Imagining what someone looks like naked is an automatic response to physical attraction. I do it all the time. I have a very active imagination and I do it all the time, and even if I wanted to stop (which I don't), there's simply no way to accomplish this. The idea simply exists and runs on its own.

I said feels like, not looks like. If you see someone you are attracted to, do you imagine what they feel like naked? 

[jellobell]

Imaging how someone you are not in a relationship feels naked is wrong.

Yeah, alright. If that's what you believe then I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere. Because at this point it seems to me like you're blaming Blackwall for something that a) he has no control over b] he never acts on except by expressing his admiration in a really sweet and non-creepy way and c) that Josephine actually reciprocates. So the guy has a crush. Big freaking deal.

 

I said feels like, not looks like. If you see someone you are attracted to, do you imagine what they feel like naked? 

Yes? The human imagination is a wonderful thing. 

[KaiserShep]

I said feels like, not looks like. If you see someone you are attracted to, do you imagine what they feel like naked? 

 

Absolutely. That and more, 'cause I ain't dead. There's nothing to be done about it, except for me to either share my thoughts, either with that person or a confidante or simply keep it to myself and simply let the feeling pass. This isn't some abhorrent behavior I should feel the compulsion to suppress.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, alright. If that's what you believe then I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere. Because at this point it seems to me like you're blaming Blackwall for something that a) he has no control over b] he never acts on except by expressing his admiration in a really sweet and non-creepy way c) that Josephine actually reciprocates. So the guy has a crush. Big freaking deal.

A) He does have control. People have control over their thoughts. 

B] He stalks her, which is pretty much the definition of creepy way. 

C) And? Is an abusive partner not abusive because the other person likes them? No, they are still abusive. Likewise a stalker is still a stalker even if the other person likes them. 

[Super Drone]

Except I'm not unsympathetic or unused to the way verisexuals think. The line you quoted was explained to me by a verisexual person.. 

 

Uh huh. You assert over an over again that people shouldn't feel attracted or think sexual thoughts about people they aren't in a relationship with. What does that sound like?

 

That sounds like someone asserting that people should feel and think the way demisexuals feel and think.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Absolutely. That and more, 'cause I ain't dead. There's nothing to be done about it, except for me to either share my thoughts, either with that person or a confidante or simply keep it to myself and simply let the feeling pass. This isn't some abhorrent behavior I should feel the compulsion to suppress.

Then your thoughts on the matter are wrong in my opinion, especially since you admit you go beyond that. Not that you'd care.

 

Uh huh. You assert over an over again that people shouldn't feel attracted or think sexual thoughts about people they aren't in a relationship with. What does that sound like?

 

That sounds like someone asserting that people should feel and think the way demisexuals feel and think.

No, it is someone asserting people should have decent and respectful thoughts rather than fantasizing about them touching an undressed stranger because they find them hot. But if you want to read it your way, I can't control how you think. Only you can.

[Estelindis]

As a matter of fact, no I have not.

It sounds like you're judging people for struggling with thoughts and feelings that never even begin to happen for you.  You are presenting your situation as morally superior to others' (indeed, as being the kind of superiority on which the advances of civilization are based), even though it requires no effort on your part to choose the best way to respond to said thoughts and feelings, since, well, you don't have them.  I think this is problematic as a basis for any discussion, whether it's the topic of romantic pairings or something else.  You are, of course, entitled to hold your particular views, but I don't think that your insistence that others should regard your norms as their own will meet with much success.

[Super Drone]

A) He does have control. People have control over their thoughts. 

 

No. They don't. People have control over their actions. Making yourself not feel is called suppression. And it's usually bad.

[Super Drone]

No, it is someone asserting people should have decent and respectful thoughts rather than fantasizing about them touching an undressed stranger because they find them hot. But if you want to read it your way, I can't control how you think. Only you can.

 

It's just that easy huh? And you'd know, right? You're in the perfect position to cast judgement on people who are wired differently from you.

 

For... reasons, right?

[KaiserShep]

Then your thoughts on the matter are wrong in my opinion, especially since you admit you go beyond that. Not that you'd care.

 

Moralizing on this issue seems pointless. I could just blame evolution for not granting me the ability to take the reigns of my subconscious and most basic thought processes.

[jellobell]

A) He does have control. People have control over their thoughts.

We've been over this. Fantasizing about someone is not something you can control, or even should control.

 

 B] He stalks her, which is pretty much the definition of creepy way. 

Okay, seriously, when does he stalk her? He brings her flowers, talks to her. He has a crush on her, he wants to be around her. If she didn't like his attention and wanted him to leave her alone and he didn't, then that might be grounds for saying he's stalking her. Except she doesn't. She enjoys him courting her.

 

C) And? Is an abusive partner not abusive because the other person likes them? No, they are still abusive. Likewise a stalker is still a stalker even if the other person likes them. 

...Bwuh? Stalking is unwelcome and excessive attention, that continues even after being told to stop. Josie encourages his attentions.

[Iakus]

 

To use a comparison, a racist is still a racist even if they keep their racist thoughts to themselves. Likewise, a stalker is still a stalker even if they keep those kinds of thoughts to themselves. 

 

And if that's why he doesn't do anything, good. After what he's done, he doesn't deserve happiness in any way, shape, and/or form. 

 

 

I'd say it takes more than thoughts to make someone into a stalker.  Otherwise every man who's eye is caught by an attractive woman passing by is a stalker.

 

As long as they don't press unwanted advances or act in a way that makes the person (or bystanders) uncomfortable, I'd say it stays pretty much in the category of "art appreciation"

 

As for whether Blackwall deserves happiness or not, it's a separate issue, though I think his past does raise an interesting question about whether there are acts you can never truly atone for.

[Iakus]

People can control their thoughts, words, and actions. We wouldn't have civilizations if we couldn't. Everything man-made you see right now wouldn't exist if we couldn't control ourselves. And there is a huge difference between thinking someone is pretty and fantasizing about how someone feels under their clothes. 

 

Words and actions yes.  Thoughts, to some degree.  But is more challenging.

 

But with attraction you're also dealing with feelings and emotions.  And those can be very, very hard to control.  Sometimes it's impossible.  What's important though is when confronted by those emotions, to channel them constructively, That is what's possible.

 

And you'll notice from banter, Blackwall never acts on his attraction to her, even when encouraged to by Cole and Varric.

[Wynterdust]

What I'm learning from this thread is: Nearly every human being alive is a stalker or a pervert according to some. And that no explanation no matter how true it is will change that because they say so. There's no real point me repeating what others have but it's pretty obvious there's nothing wrong with Blackwall's feelings towards Josephine, especially considering it's encouraged.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Fine, whatever. I'm just imaging it. Just like I imagined the real stalker who acted the same way as Rainier does. 

 

...

 

Oh, wait a minute. I didn't imagine that. 

[Jaulen]

I've been stalked IRL.

 

Josie doesn't tell Blackwall his attentions are unwelcome.

 

Blackwall is NOT a stalker.

 

 

 

And I'm rather offended by the thought that because I might have 'sexual' thoughts about people I don't know, that I'm somehow a deviant/morally corrupt/a criminal.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's just that easy huh? And you'd know, right? You're in the perfect position to cast judgement on people who are wired differently from you.

 

For... reasons, right?

And I'm rather offended by the thought that because I might have 'sexual' thoughts about people I don't know, that I'm somehow a deviant/morally corrupt/a criminal.

It sounds like you're judging people for struggling with thoughts and feelings that never even begin to happen for you.  You are presenting your situation as morally superior to others' (indeed, as being the kind of superiority on which the advances of civilization are based), even though it requires no effort on your part to choose the best way to respond to said thoughts and feelings, since, well, you don't have them.  I think this is problematic as a basis for any discussion, whether it's the topic of romantic pairings or something else.  You are, of course, entitled to hold your particular views, but I don't think that your insistence that others should regard your norms as their own will meet with much success.

You're right. I went too far with that. I apologize. 

[Estelindis]

Kallen, you obviously have very strong views on this, judging from your posts here as well as in the Blackwall thread.  No one can invalidate your personal experience.  That said, I don't think anyone's try to do that.  People can and are entitled to argue that, based on the evidence we see in-game, Josephine didn't perceive Blackwall's actions as stalker-y.  Even if you personally feel that there is a parallel between your life and the game story, that doesn't mean that people are making any claims about your life when they comment about the game, just the story insofar as it concerns Josephine and Blackwall.