191 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

---- Note: This was written during the start of DA:I. It has not been updated since it was written! If anything needs changing, please compile a list to me in a PM, and I will test it! ---- 

 

Ohoy! There has been a lot of question regarding this particular question. Most likely because the hardest part of the game are, in fact, early game. After Skyhold you get your specialization, more stats and everything flows very nice! 

Now, first of. What I am about to say is very important! 

 

This is just my opinion and reccomendations! It's based off of my own playing over 8 pre-skyhold playthroughs where I complete each zone before moving on. It's based lightly off theorycrafting and it requires no cheesy tactic/exploit/abuse. I also play exclusively on Nightmare with FF off, so that might change some of these. I also kill the Ferelden Frostback at level 11 and turn 12, before I do the Mages/Templar quest. This means I am near level 13(or level 13) at Skyhold.  

 

There are many ways to play and many ways to succeed. These builds worked for me, and with my team setup. I also play 90% in real time, but I do pause occasionally to target/position. I rarely switch to other character unless it is beneficial. Example: I will manually use Varric to use Full Draw to instantly kill a whisp early-game. If I feel I am in danger, I will manually use Winter's grasp on Solas. 

 

Next up is my team composition: Varric, Solas, Blackwall/Cassandra and me. These are my favorites, and I do not change any. At this stage there is no difference in Blackwall or Cassandra, so do not worry about which one. Just choose between strong jawline and glorious beard I'll explain the party builds together with the other builds I post. They work the same!

 

Okay? Good. Let's get to it!

 

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Warriors

Ferelden Frostback Kill: Coming soon!

Playthrough: Coming soon!

 

[2h] DPS Warrior

 

Spoiler

 

As a 2h warrior your job is not to smash stuff to bits early game. Your job is control, and your damage comes from knockdown. Here is a quick rundown of the build:

 

You got 4 points to play with at level 3. Respec as soon as possible. If you are a human, you get another point and will finish the build 1 level earlier. Here is where you allocate the points:

 

4 points - Level 3:  Mighty Blow + Upgrade [Two-Handed Weapon, Right Side] +  Gappling Chain + Upgrade [Battlemaster]

3 points - Level 6:  Block and Slash --> Flow of Battle --> Pommel Strike [Two Handed Weapon, Left side]

3 points - Level 9:  Crippling Blow --> Combat Roll --> Coupe De Grace [Battlemaster, Left side]

3 points - Level 12: War Cry --> Charging Bull + Upgrade [Vanguard]

*Optional: Instead of Charging Bull and Coupe De Grace you can go down [Weapon and Shield] and get Turn the Blade(4 points). This will add to your survivability, but you lose some damage and control of the battlefield.

 

- The reasoning for this is to to first build some initiate damage: Mighty blow + Grappling chain combo is massive. You pull something in, you knock it down and you smash it for a lot of damage.

 

- Next you build Pommel Strike which is a CC and a damage ability with one important feature: It hits almost instantly. Not to mention the low CD and low stamina cost. It combos nicely after a Mighy Blow!

 

- Now you build for 2 vital abilities: Combat roll will save you a lot of times. Mighty blow and melee swings got a recovery time, at which you can get absolutely murdered. However, you can roll out of it! You also get a passive that gives you 30% more damage on knocked down and stunned targets. You know the 3 abilities we got? Yeah. Each of them triggers this. Remember the Mighty blow combo? Yeah, another 30% on top of that!

 

- With the core of the build done, I spend my last points on getting Charging Bull. I do it for 2 reasons: 1) By tapping charging bull you can knock down stuff and get a "free"(10 stamina) Mighty Blow and 2) It lets me move out of bad situation. 

The guard generation is OK, but not really all that helpful. But hey, I get free guard!

 

 

[sns] Tank Warrior

 

Spoiler

The tank. How we love the tanks! They take damage! And are completely broken in this game! Look at this!

Anyways, I never actually play the tank myself. It's simply not anything I find interesting. For me, a tank is there to take aggro and survive with as little support as possible. The AI manage to do this well enough(Well.. questionably so). 

 

At level 3 you got 2 points to play with. I am unsure which points you start with, but Cassandra starts with War Cry, Shield Wall and Payback strike. Leaving with 1 point to spend on goodies out of the tutorial. So let's go with that, as that works just fine! As a human you finish this 1 level earlier. If you plan to tank, I would recommend a Dwarf over a human, where magic defense is a lot harder to get, and more valuable, than a single ability point!

 

1 point   - Level 3:  Challenge [Vanguard, Right Side]

4 points - Level 7:  Bear Mauls the Wolves --> Turn the bolt --> Shield Bash --> Turn the Blade [Weapon and Shield]

2 points - Level 9: War Cry upgrade --> Trust The Steel [Vanguard, right side]

3 points - level 12: Grappling Chain --> Crippling Blows --> Combat Roll

 

- First of you get Challenge as the second taunt. Much needed!

 

- Then you get all survivability passives in the Weapon and Shield tree. I believe these are calculated before armor, so they are massive in terms of defense! 

 

- Then we upgrade War Cry for some juicy armor buff, and get Trust the Steel (albeit it does not work for front armor, it helps if the tank is surrounded. The tank always got some guard up in my experience!)

 

- Lastly I build for Combat Roll. Tank AI actually uses this well! Cassandra efficiently avoided the fire breath and fire balls of the Ferelden Frostback. It was a sight for sore eyes I tell you! It's not as important as it is for dps, but it is worth it in my opinion! Crippling Blow also means the tank can apply weakness, which is 15% less damage taken! More tanking power!

 

- Get the Masterwork Vanguard armor from the Bandit Leader in Hinterlands(Level 8). At this point not even Ferelden Frostback will hit you for more than 1, as long as you face him/her(?). 

 

 

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Rogues

Ferelden Frostback Kill: Coming soon!

Playthrough: Coming soon!

 

[Archer] DPS Rogue

 

Spoiler

Oh, my love. My big, big love. Early game archers annihilate, and it's just fun times all over! Your focus is to maximize damage. Easy as that. There isn't much to say. I recommend being a Human for the extra point, but it doesn't even matter!

 

At the start you get points in Long Shot and Stealth. Keep these, both are much needed! That gives us 2 points to play with. Goodie!

 

4 points - Level 5:  First Blow --> Explosive Shot --> Pincushion --> Full Draw [Archery, Right side]

2 points - Level 7:  Evasion --> Evade [Subterfuge, Left side]

3 points - Level 10:  Caltrops --> Looked Like it Hurt --> Cheap Shot [Sabotage, right side]

2 points - level 12: Poisoned Weapons + Upgrade* [Sabotage, left side]

 

Optional: Upgrade Full Draw for the Sleep effect for combos, or longshot if you plan to fight dragons. Otherwise you can get Death From Above for elevation damage bonus, or drop Poisoned Weapons and get Dance of Death in [Dual Dagger]. The latter one might not be a bad idea when I think about it! 

 

* Note, after some testing it seem the upgrade only applies to your base damage before modifiers is applied! My test showed that my base damage at 85 became 100, a 17% increase, whereas my longshot only got a 3.5% increase. This means you can skip the upgrade and get something else instead!

 

** Note 2, the poison effect doesn't actually give you the damage bonus. It's the poison on the enemy that does. So a full drawn will not get the full effect, since you can't apply poison and hit it unharmed with a full draw! What a bummer!

 

*** Note3, This means you can skip the upgrade if you want. It also means Poisoned Weapons isn't particular good on non-boss fights, as things die too fast for it to really do much damage. It's up to you! I like poison, so I use it

 

- The first goal is to get Full Draw. It hits like a truck, and is the perfect initiator. At level 6 I hit for 2.2k crit with it. At level 9 that was 3.3k crit. That's enough to 1-shot any non-tank enemies on nightmare at that range! On the way we get Explosive Shot which is a solid CC! We start with Long shot, which is our most used ability, and we get stealth, which is our aggro-dump-damage-bonus-iconic ability. Use in on CD -- especially before a Full Draw!

 

- From there we get Evade. A fire ball coming your way? A terror demon about to dry hump you? Jump away! It's priceless!

 

- We then get Looked like it hurt and Cheap Shot. These are nice now, but will become pure gold later. Stamina on crit? Armor penetration on crit? 6 cunning(3% crit I believe)? Yes please!

 

- The last 2(or 3 as human) are up for debate. I originally had Poisoned Weapons planned, but via testing the damage increase does not fit the archer well. The poison itself is nice, but not particular strong early-level. You can apply it to a group of enemies via Explosive Shot though, so that is useful if you get an AoE situation!

 

-  The other choice I would recommend are getting Dance of Death in the DW tree, and/or upgrading Long Shot. I did some extra damage on Ferelden Frostback with it!

 

[Dual Wield] DPS Rogue

 

Spoiler

Did I mention I love Rogues? Yeah. My second big love! Out-of-this-world dps, tactical and looks good. What's not to like about this bad boy?!

 

A DW rogue starts off with points in Twin Fangs and Stealth. Both are much needed, so no need to do anything there. 2 points yet again.

 

2 points - Level 3:  Flank Attack + Upgrade [Double Dagger, Left side]

3 points - Level 6:  Dance of Death --> Sneak Attack --> Deathblow* [Double Daggers, Left side]

2 points - Level 8:  Evasion --> Evade [Subterfuge, Left Side]

1 points  - level 9:  Upgrade Twin Fangs [Dual Daggers, Right side]

3 points - level 12: Caltropes --> It looked like it hurts --> Cheap Shot [Sabotage, Right Side]

 

- Options here are to upgrade Deathblow instead of getting Cheap Shot, get Poisoned Weapons(I do not recommend this!) or get Easy to Miss.

- Other build consist of going for Mercy Killing and/or Shadow Strike instead of Deathblow. That's up to you! I haven't played around with it, so that build is for somebody else to write!

 

*Deathblow is "slightly" bugged, which may or may not make you not pick it up. If you don't want it, I recommend getting Shadow Strike in [Subterfuge] first. It's bugged via 2 things:

1) If you get a killing blow with Deathblow it does not trigger Dance of Death and you do not get 50 stamina. In theory you should spend 50 with it, kill a target and get 50 back. But, alas, no. You end up with 0 due to bug2:

2) Deathblow is programmed poorly. It does an initiate test: if your target is under 50%, it triggers the second hit. However, if you have 50 stamina when the second hit start, it takes 50 more stamina from you. This 50 stamina are not supposed to be taken! 

 

** On a more positive note, Deathblow got 2 other things to note.

1) You don't need to use it when the enemy is under 50% to trigger the second strike -- as long as the target gets to 50% or lower after the first hit is done, the second one will trigger.

2) You don't need the upgrade to reset CD on kill. This affect is baked into the original ability. Either bad tooltip, or a bug. I don't know!

 

- First off Flanking Attack and its upgrade! Its a second stealth, a easy way to flank, a movement ability and just overall worth it. With stealth, you get 2 ways to enter stealth. You can always stealth before a combo!

 

- Then I get Deathblow, since it works very well with the playstyle and combo of the DW rogue. A typical combo consist of Stealth - flank a target - Twin Fangs - auto attack until  they get up, or are at 50%, Deathblow -- dead. On the way we get 2 good passives: 50 stamina on kill(bugged with deathblow!) and 10% crit on flank(If you are not flanking, you are playing wrong!).

 

- Getting Evade now. It's amazing for a DW rogue! Not just can you avoid pesky Lesser Terrors, but you can move to targets faster. Less travel time = more uptime on target = more dps. Good times!

 

- At this point I upgrade Twin Fangs. You can do this earlier, as you can live without evade for another level. The extra damage on twin fangs is nice though!

 

- I get It looked like it hurts and Cheap  Shot for the same reason as the archer -- just more important. You hit more, hence crit more. You get more stamina back and higher uptime on cheap shot. Best.Passives.Ever!

 

- I don't get poison since I don't find it useful with the playstyle I aim for. You burst in intervals, and poison is not helping that. You are also grasping after stamina, and Poisoned weapons cost 20 stamina! 

 

- The other thing i do not get is the upgrade to Deathblow. If it wasn't for the bug, I would prioritize this, but with the bugs.. well.. it's not too important. If you do, however, want it; You can skip Cheap Shot for a level and get it. Cheap Shot and Looked Like it hurts benefit with higher crit, and pre-Skyhold you don't got a lot of it!

 

 

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Mages

 

Ferelden Frostback Kill: Coming soon!

Playthrough: Coming soon!

 

[Support] Spirit Mage

 

Spoiler

This is Solas, pretty much. He's the glue that holds the group together, the man that makes the early encounters possible! Not much to say, it's all pretty basic:

 

Start off with, you guessed it, 2 points. Solas starts off with Winter's Grasp and barrier. Both are good. You, on the other hand, starts off with 2 more or less useless abilities: Chain Lightning and Flashfire. Get rid of that when you can, and do as Solas; Win by going Winter's Grasp and Barrier!

 

2 points - Level  3:  Peaceful Aura --> Dispel [Spirit, Right side]

3 points - Level  6:  Guardian Spirit --> Mind Blast --> Strength of Spirits [Spirit, Right side]

2 points - Level  8:  Fade Step --> Mana surge [Winter, Both sides]

1 point   - Level  9:  Upgrade barrier  [Spirit, Right side]

3 points - Level 12: Immolate --> Flashpoint --> Clean Burn [Inferno, Right side]

 

Optional: Get Energy Barrage. Trade out either Barrier upgrade or Clean Burn. You can also get Revival if you want. Trade out whatever you want, excluding dispel!

 

- First we get Winter's grasp, Barrier and dispel. Dispel is the most important ability you got! Remember that! Barrier is, well, your main ability. Winter's grasp a good CC. Lots of good stuff from the get-go!

 

- We want Strength of Spirits for stronger barrier. On the way we get Guardian Spirit, which makes you near unkillable, and Mind Blast, which takes away any aggro on your sorry ass!

 

- With the core gotten, we want some survivability! Fade Step and Mana Surge makes sure we live for that much longer!

 

- Lastly we go down the immolate tree for Flashpoint and Clean Burn. After a crit you can get a free barrier/dispel? Your CD reduces the more **** you cast? Hell yeah! Barrier machine activated!

 

- I mention Energy Barrage and Revival as optional. Energy Barrage is a solid DPS boost, and will help proccing Flashpoint more often. If you want some damage, and can survive fine, just take the upgrade out of Barrier, or Mana Surge, for it. Revival is nice, but unless you plan to die a lot; You can revive manually. It's a quality of life and "****-my-whole-team-is-dead!"-ability. Nice to have - but not necessary!

 

 

[DPS/Fire] Mage

 

Spoiler

 

The King of AoE! The control freak! The freakin' god of molten death and destruction! To be fair, this was the hardest playthrough of them all. The fight versus the Ferelden Frostback was especially painful, as all the damage is AoE! Not to mention I first ran into the damn dragon with a fire staff and fire mine! I do not reccomend that... ehe..

 

We start off with Flashfire and Chain Lightning. Get rid of that. 4 points to start with, yes!

 

3 points - Level   3:  Energy Barrage [Storm, Left side] + Winter's Grasp --> Fade Step[Winter]

6 points - Level   7:  Immolate --> Flashpoint --> Clean Burn --> Pyromancer --> Fire Mine + Upgrade [Inferno, Everywhere]

2 points - Level   9:  Conductive Current [Storm, Right sides] + Winter Stillness*[Winter, center]

2 points - Level 11:  Barrier --> Guardian Spirit [Spirit, Right side]

1 point   - Level 12:  Upgrade Energy Barrage [Storm, Left side]

 

- Other options consist of going for Static Cage + upgrade instead of Fire mine. Go ahead! Though I find Static Cage to be lackluster early-game, as you lack the means to utilize it for the best. It also cost 65 mana.. which is a lot.

 

* Winter Stillness is nice -- but 2 of your main abilities breaks it! Both Energy Barrage and Fire Mine moves your character. not to mention you need to move if: A fireball is coming your way, you got aggro, enemy is outside of line of sigh, etc. So you could skip it entirely and get something like upgraded Fade Step.

 

- First thing to do: Get Energy Barrage, Winter's grasp and Fade Step. This gives you damage, CC and movement. You're, like, good to go now!

 

- This is the bulk of the build! We want the Flashpoint, Clean Burn and Fire Mine. Fire mine hits like a truck on steroids, thrown by the Hulk! At level 6 I had a regular hit of 1k with it -- and it's AoE! With Clean Burn you can dish out some monster damage!

 

- Conductive Current means more damage. Why not?! Winter Stillness is good on paper, but might be problematic. I took it, but I do regret it slightly. I didn't feel much of an improvement with it, to be honest!

 

- We get Barrier and Guardian Spirit. You don't actually need any of these, but you might as well have the reserve survivability!

 

- In the end I upgrade Energy Barrage. This could be done before Winter Stillness, Barrier and Guardian Spirit if you want to. Depends on how you play, and how you feel it is going.

 

[DPS/Storm] Mage

 

Spoiler

 

My second mage build. I originally did not want to include it, as I find Static Cage to be costy and inefficient before you get some high based weapons and fast hitting companions. However, I couldn't bring Fire mine to the Ferelden Frostback! This time we go down Storm and the whole build is built on the upgraded Static Cage. 

 

3 points - Level   3:  Energy Barrage [Storm, Left side] + Winter's Grasp --> Fade Step[Winter]

5 points - Level   7:  Upgrade Energy Barrage --> Conductive Current --> Static Charge --> Static Cage + Upgrade [Storm, Right Side]

4 points - Level 11:  Immolate --> Flashpoint --> Clean Burn [Inferno, Right sides] + Winter Stillness[Winter, center]

1 point   - Level 12:  Barrier [Spirit, Right side]

* You could take out the point in Winter Stillness and put it into Guardian Spirit if you want the extra "Oh ****!"-survivability

* you could take out Winter's Grasp for Chain Lightning here, since it would help with keeping stuff inside of Static Cage. Your choice!

 

- It starts off as above. Energy Barrage, Winter's grasp and Fade Step is everything you need in life!

 

- Instead of going heavy Inferno and getting fire mine, we just go heavy storm and get Static Cage. 

 

- We get Clean Burn for more awesomeness, and grab Winter Stillness for much needed mana regen

*Energy Barrage will move your character and canceling this. Mind that!

 

- We end it at barrier, and possibly Guardian Spirit. Neither is needed, but it's okay!

 

The playstyle is very simple. You use Static Cage when you can, and you energy barrage. The damage.. the damage is a lot. However, it's costy and not the same dps as Fire mine early game. If you are not a fan of timing Fire mines, then this is a valid option. 

Give it a shot! Mid-Late game this build outshine Fire mine, but that is beyond this thread!

 

 

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[Blackstork]

Hey mate, nice stuff you have here.

Tho there are excellent starter rogue builds (i can swear by them) which are very different from what you did, and i think, that in light of team work, especially in NM level they are... better in some way because they offer more CC.

My suggestion is simple, it taking manjority (all) of Subtrefuge tree. It's very powerful , if played right. 

My comments are 100% gameplay based, and they are based on how you can play and not numbers, so the build just follows certain concept of behaviour.

Why?

1. Upgraded Stealth provides you removal of  debilitating effects, and improves your movement , even if surrounded by enemies (you cant move out if being surrounded, or at least you may waste precious time)

2. Evade, as you said is awesome movement and kiting ability

3. Knock Powder - very powerful CC which working vs majority of enemies pre-Skyhold, especially good as upgraded, it also area , and can CC few enemies at once if you place it right (ie i would call this spell "Cone of Slumber"), more that that, with union with Spirit Tree mage in party, this becomes powerful aoe weapon, which does aoe damage, and makes enemies panic and gives you auto-crit ability versus sleeping or panicked foes with Mercy Killing upgrade. This means alot. Its just non stop kills, its more powerful than assasins "Crit from Stealth" stuff, and could be triggered alot.  I honestry, think that FF friendly AOE, and CC are much more important, than high dps abilities at start. You will do ALOT more damage just nightmaring your enemies and critting them, and will take much less risks with alot of CC.

3. Shadow Strike with upgrade. It is not only main damage ability, it is also nice CC. It works against most pesky enemies ta start, alowing practically stun-lock those terrors. Upgrade makes your stealth closer by 4 sec, and doing more damage from it also brings it closer. It's best damage opener for stealth, that also ensure that your main security - stealth, will be aviable sooner.

4. Your DW build does not have Easy to Miss. But is main game changer. You get aggro too often with those dps abilities, and incredibly squishy. You must have it. You simply will die faster with it and will be hindered on battlefield because you will pull more aggro.

Cheers.

Keep it up. 

[Matth85]

4. Your DW build does not have Easy to Miss. But is main game changer. You get aggro too often with those dps abilities, and incredibly squishy. You must have it. You simply will die faster with it and will be hindered on battlefield because you will pull more aggro.

 

I disagree on that. With Flank Attack and Stealth you jump from target to target so often, you don't really need it. The tank got 2 taunts and will keep the enemies off you. I have at least never needed it. Though I did mention you can take a point out of Cheap shot (or if you are a human) and get it. It's personal preference

 

I also did mention that build, but I haven't tried it, so I didn't write about it. I might get around giving it a shot later on! Spent the whole day on testing stuff. Time to actually play the game!

[Blackstork]

Ok i see , right. It builds up on party combos. Nightmare and Mercy Killing is very fun.

I didnt mentioned FS because it is awesome stuff, but on NM you actually need CC to keep mobs not only out from you but out from your mage and even tank sometimes. 2 CC have their big reasons vs 0 CC in many cases.  

[Anelyn77]

I don't understand why peeps prefer Explosive Shot to Leaping Shot - yes it has a small CC attached to it, but it only hits 2 targets where with Leaping you can hit any number or do massive damage to a single target (it's 600% weapon damage plus huge chance to proc on hit effects since it's 12 projectiles, if you use it from stealth, 50% more dmg plus auto crit if you pick that talent, so it's a faster Full draw with more damage and insane stamina regen - 10 stam on crit).

 

I'll try more explo with Varric once I finish upgrading his x-bow to T2

[SonsofNorthWind]

I don't understand why peeps prefer Explosive Shot to Leaping Shot - yes it has a small CC attached to it, but it only hits 2 targets where with Leaping you can hit any number or do massive damage to a single target (it's 600% weapon damage plus huge chance to proc on hit effects since it's 12 projectiles, if you use it from stealth, 50% more dmg plus auto crit if you pick that talent, so it's a faster Full draw with more damage and insane stamina regen - 10 stam on crit).
 
I'll try more explo with Varric once I finish upgrading his x-bow to T2

Probably cause we've backflipped off something high one too many times.

And because with upgraded Full Draw and Explosive Shot you can stun lock from range, which is Some Good on high difficulty.

[swk3000]

I'd like to propose an alternate build for the DPS Mage. While I understand the idea behind the build you have, I don't really like it. This is nothing against you or the build; it's entirely because I don't have the skill to predict where enemies are going to be in the next three seconds, meaning that I'm likely to place it badly and end up wasting the mana for nothing. If people reading this thread are good enough to use Fire Mine effectively, then I heartily recommend the build that has already been posted. If you're like me, and have trouble placing It, then I'd personally recommend this:

Chain Lightning + Flashfire - starting spells. Chain Lightning is excellent, but Flashfire sucks when compared to Immolate. Use the first Tactician's Renewal amulet to swap Flashfire for Immolate.

Energy Barrage - this is an excellent single-target spell. While each projectile does only 66% damage, all 12 hits give it a total damage of 792% Weapon Damage. It also gets it's element from your staff, so as long as you have a staff of the appropriate element, you can use it to take advantage of enemy weaknesses, on top of the already high damage it does by default.

Winter's Grasp + Winter's Chill - our next two points are spent picking up our CC ability. Unlike Chain Lighting and Immolate, which can hit multiple targets even in base form, the base form of Winter's Grasp can only hit a single target. The upgrade allows it to hit an area, so it now fills the role of CC. It also allows us to deal solid damage to enemies weak to Cold damage, rounding out our elements.

Flashpoint + Clean Burn - this is pretty standard in most Mage builds, and this one is no exception. Each of these increases the speed at which you can fire off spells, which is an overall increase in DPS.

Arcing Surge + Wildfire + Energy Bombardment - upgrading our offensive spells for maximum damage.

Stormbringer OR Lightning Bolt + Gathering Storm - The goal here is to speed up our cool downs even further with Gathering Storm. I've heard that Stormbringer is currently bugged, but even if it is, you still get +3 Magic when you take it. However, if it really bothers you, you can take Lightning Bolt instead. This will avoid the bugged passive, and give you an on-demand Paralyze for setting up CCC. Then, we take Gathering Storm.

Winter Stillness - Only one ability disables this (Energy Barrage), so it's a decent investment. However, if you're not big on it, you can go for something else instead. I'd make a suggestion, but at this point, you're likely to be picking up your Specialization, so you'll probably want to either respec, or start spending future points in the Specialization tree.

That's the build I'm working towards. It gives up the massive damage of Fire Mine in exchange for more reliable damage. I do like the idea behind Fire Mine, and I will look into picking it up later for use against less mobile targets, but for now, I want a mobbing build more than I want a Fire Mine.

[Rynas]

Probably cause we've backflipped off something high one too many times.

 

Speaking of which, they need to nerf defenestrating shot.  (Warning: language)

[Downluck]

Charging Bull really should be the first skill you grab for a 2h dps warrior.  It's right there since you already have War Cry, it offers guard and knockdown on a shorter cooldown than grappling hook, and most importantly, it's group CC and as a low level that's crucial for survival.  Mighty Blow, Charging Bull, upgrade Mighty Blow, then the hook plus upgrade.

 

Otherwise a great guide.  

[xelander]

Regarding the Archer, I believe going down the LHS of the Archery tree is much better. Unless I'm missing something really obvious, Leaping Shot is miles better than Explosive. It's a dodge (it makes Terrors trivial), has better damage, shoots 12 arrows (meaning higher chance to proc Looked Like It Hurt and Cheap Shot), upgraded it nets more damage and a little CC (if you are careful when you shoot the purple arrow).

 

Further, Poison seems theoretically a good idea, but it's not enough damage, especially later on. The game seems to favor burst damage (or maybe I do... ). DoT on such a small scale is not worth it.

 

 My pre-Skyhold build would look like that:

 

1. Long Shot, Stealth

2. Death From Above

3. Leaping Shot

4. Strafing Shot

5. Full Draw

6. Full Draw+ (important CC)

7. Leaping Shot+ (more damage and CC, but you have to mind your next shot)

8. Caltrops

9. Looked Like it Hurt

10. Cheap Shot

11. Long Shot+ or maybe start working on Artificer, if you have it unlocked by now.

 

The only bad part is missing out on Pincushion.

 

Anyway, can you explain your rationale for going the way you did, Math85? (EDIT: I mean in terms of LHS vs RHS Archery tree.)

[Matth85]

@Swk3000

 

That's the build I'm working towards. It gives up the massive damage of Fire Mine in exchange for more reliable damage. I do like the idea behind Fire Mine, and I will look into picking it up later for use against less mobile targets, but for now, I want a mobbing build more than I want a Fire Mine.

 

 

I see what you are going for. Though let me explain why I like, or don't like, the particular parts of the build you names. Personal opinion though! If it works, it works. This is just my through process!

 

Chain Lightning - While good on paper, I found it.. unreliable. That might just be me, but the hefty cost just didn't rest easy with me. 

 

Energy Barrage - I take it as while. Probably the best ability a mage can get!

 

Winter's Grasp - Strong CC. A must have for both Shatter Combos, and to get out a target from the fight every once in a while. Especially nice for a  certain behemoth boss at the end of a certain Haven mission. They/He can be frozen as the only workable CC! Same with Maulers.

 

Winter's Chill - While Winter's Grasp is an amazing CC; the cost couples with the low damage makes it a very bad damage spell. It doesn't help that a lot of enemies are immune to frost(Er... lots of enemies are immune to fire as well.. so this point isn't quite that good!)

 

Arcing Surge - Not a damage increase per se, just bigger AoE. Not many big packs early game, so this isn't too useful!

 

Wildfire - Very good if you avoid Fire Mine. But Immolate is weak version of Fire mine! If you can't stand fire mine, I guess it makes sense!

 

Energy bombardement - It's nice. If I felt the mage did any sort of decent single-target damage, I might consider it earlier than I would otherwise get it. However, the difference between 50 damage and 70 damage in between spells makes this.. questionable.

 

Stormbringer -Random strike. Low damage. It's decent for a point -- but not worth a point this early. It doesn't bring anything reliable.

 

Lightning Bolt - 65 mana(!!). 24s CD. 2s paralyze. Energy Barrage + Immolate/Any other spell is worth more than this. It simply cost too much for no damage.

 

Gathering Storm - It's pretty decent. However, Clean Burn makes this redundant, and it's hefty in investment to reach.

 

 

I can see this build work -- but there is a total of 5 regular abilities. 

Chain lightning + upgrade - 50 mana

Immolate + upgrade - 35 mana

Winter's grasp + upgrade - 50 mana

Lightning Bolt - 65 mana

Energy Barrage - 50 mana

 

You don't got the mana, or mana regen, to keep going between them. At which some of these spells become situational, and a waste of point. You also don't got any reliable survivability. Fade Step or Barrier is very decent to have. At this point Gathering Storm and Clean Burn also becomes unreliable, as you simply do not got the mana to cast these spells even if they are off CD. 

 

Downluck, on 09 Dec 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

 

Charging Bull really should be the first skill you grab for a 2h dps warrior.  It's right there since you already have War Cry, it offers guard and knockdown on a shorter cooldown than grappling hook, and most importantly, it's group CC and as a low level that's crucial for survival.  Mighty Blow, Charging Bull, upgrade Mighty Blow, then the hook plus upgrade.

 

Otherwise a great guide

 

 

I don't see it. At level 3 we got 4 points, at level 6 we got 7 points. Before level 6 War Cry is a 1-way-road to suicide on Nightmare. With only 7 points, wasting seem bad. Here is why I do not like it early on:

 

Upgraded Charging Bull costs 3 point and you get 1 useless ability on the way (War Cry).

- The guard generation is useless at this stage. Your guard is down in 2 hits anyways.

- The movement is nice.

- The free hit is useless. You are not limited by stamina this early.

- The knockdown is nice, but chaotic.

 

Instead of having an mediocre Chargin Bull + War Cry + Mighty Blow at level 4, giving you no damage and some CC, you can get 2 CCs + massive damage. However, I realize some people swear on Charging Bull. I don't get it, but if you do; Just grab it and get everything else later. It's no biggie! 

 

*For me, Charging Bull doesn't become powerful unless I am a Reaver (65 stamina Devour for 10 stamina Charging Bull? Thank you!), or I got enough abilities to exhaust my stamina (Not happening unless I get one of the horns in Battlemaster). *

 

 

 

Anyway, can you explain your rationale for going the way you did, Math85? (EDIT: I mean in terms of LHS vs RHS Archery tree.)

 

It's simple, really. The left side of the archery tree only got a single mediocre passive, and a situation "selfish" get-away which is worse than Evade. Here is my thought processes and rundown of them(And yes. 3 archers down so far. I have tested the left side as well )

 

Right Side:

 

First Blood - 15% more damage on enemies above 80%. that's 15% more damage on a full draw. If you snipe off lower-armored target, this is gold. A single full draw crits for 3.3k at level 9, and a longshot crits for 1.2k. An extra 15% on that isn't bad! Of course, on boss fights it's rather useless. 

Explosive shot - It hits quick. It knocks down AoE. It applies poison to everything. Archer hitting Solas? Explosive Shot. Tank getting murdered? Explosive shot. 

Pincushion - As a counter to First Blood only working at the start of a fight, this gem becomes amazing on a long-drawn fight. It's amazing on dragons/Bosses!

 

Left Side:

 

Death From Above - 25% damage at an elevation. A worthy talent, but too situational. If you are in a bad position, you won't get any benefit. Obviously, this is a point I get mid game. 

Leaping Shot - It hits 12 times. You are probably never going to hit with them all (Unless it's a big enemy...). You jump backwards, inferior to evade in every way. At best, you hit 12 times for good damage. At worst you hit once. You need to aim it. It doesn't help anybody but you. I don't find it useful unless in one of these 2 situations:

A) I am fighting a dragon. Reliable 12 shots? nice

B  I am an artificer. 12 crits? 6 second off CDs? Nice.

Strafing Shots - It gives nothing of important. You move near walking speed while auto attacking? When is that useful? The bulk of your damage is from Long shot. The only time this is decent is if an enemy just rounded a corner. Otherwise it's a minor, minor, auto attack dps increase. Only place I found this useful was Varric, as he likes to go into melee. However, Varric is an idiot when it comes to Leaping Shot!

 

It stands between 1 mediocre passive + 1 amazing passive + 1 amazing ability, versus 1 terrible passive + 1 good passive + 1 mediocre ability. I opt for the former! that said, I do tend to get the left side (At least Leaping Shot) at mid game, as I get down into Artificer.

 

 

Further, Poison seems theoretically a good idea, but it's not enough damage, especially later on. The game seems to favor burst damage

 

 

Yes and no. Archer are not burst-focuses (Well, outside of Full Draw!). They are sustained with a reliable rain of Long shot. My reasoning for Poisoned Weapons is simple: Early game things live long enough for the poison to apply its full effect, and you are not limited by 8 abilities. On boss fights the damage over time can chuck of a good portion of the fight time, and on AoE situation it works seamlessly with Explosive Shot. 6 enemies bashing my tank? Suddenly they are all knocked down and take ticks of 100 damage. More damage than any other ability I got would do collectively!

 

The upgrade is useless though. Since it only applies before modifiers, and not after. Meaning your auto attacks increase by a theoretically 25% (It was closer to 18% in my tests), but skills relying on damage modifier gets a much lower increase! (Long Shot got a 7% increase, and full Draw a 3.5%)

I would recommend getting Dance of death instead of Poisoned Weapons + upgrade, but I have problems making it work. Half of my abilities don't work with Dance of Death -- only auto attacks. It's.. unreliable.

 

My reasoning for not taking Full Draw Upgrade is that I find it unnecessary. By going for priority targets (Wraith/Archers/Mages), Full Draw + Long Shot will kill them outright most of the time. A sleep wouldn't benefit too much. Explosive shot and Winter's Grasp on my mage is enough CC to survive any challenge.

[rumination888]

Pre-Skyhold, upgraded Chain Lightning is really underrated. Its one of the best early spells against groups. The 9 meter range on an upgraded Chain Lightning ensures that, as long as you can see two enemies, you'll get the full 1500% weapon damage. 1500% weapon damage and a shock debuff every 8 seconds is nothing to sneeze at.

[SpaceV3gan]

Great thread. This is what we needed, for the part of the game when it really matters getting the best build. Who cares about overkill level 25 builds, late game is a cakewalk anyway. Early game is where the challenge is and I would like to see more people talking about it.

Now I am really surprised that you can beat Fereldan Frostback before Skyhold. Using presumably tier 1-2 equipment. I never thought of doing that, at least not on Nightmare. But I guess it is doable with much dedication.

[Matth85]

Ït's not too bad! Well, on my mage it was horrible. I even recorded it. Took me 3 tries to get it done. The main issue isn't the dragon itself; As he/she(?) doesn't deal any non-avoidable damage to non-tanks, and the tank take 1 damage per hit. The problem was after 50% when adds start spawning. The first 2 tries I couldn't dps them down fast enough on my Mage, so I went into a bad loop: I never got time to actually attack the dragon. 

Of course, on my archer I could (with Varric) 2-shot them without a problem. 

 

I got a whole pre-templar/mage quest - with-Ferelden Frostback-kill recorded. I plan to edit it when I get the time. It shows my mage dps buils (a variation) and my way to deal with the starting zones as a little completionist. I can't leave a quest undone! So I do them all!

[xelander]

 

Yes and no. Archer are not burst-focuses (Well, outside of Full Draw!). They are sustained with a reliable rain of Long shot. My reasoning for Poisoned Weapons is simple: Early game things live long enough for the poison to apply its full effect, and you are not limited by 8 abilities. On boss fights the damage over time can chuck of a good portion of the fight time, and on AoE situation it works seamlessly with Explosive Shot. 6 enemies bashing my tank? Suddenly they are all knocked down and take ticks of 100 damage. More damage than any other ability I got would do collectively!

 

The upgrade is useless though. Since it only applies before modifiers, and not after. Meaning your auto attacks increase by a theoretically 25% (It was closer to 18% in my tests), but skills relying on damage modifier gets a much lower increase! (Long Shot got a 7% increase, and full Draw a 3.5%)

 

How do you get ticks of 100 damage at early level? That would mean you have 400 base weapon damage?!

 

Since I am going for Artificer, Leaping Shot is integral. And Explosive Shot, while nice CC (and poison applier) is FF, so I tend to skip it. Leaping Shot is better to me, since it does more damage (generally I hit with at least 6-8 arrows, i.e. at least 300% damage), it is a dodge, and with upgrade it gives knock down capabilities. I certainly abused the hell out of it against Envy. The passives on the LHS are great though... sigh.

 

If you are going poison, wouldn't it make sense to take Explosive Toxin as well? It stacks with Poisoned weapon, as far as I tested. Could be useful for mobs, especially in conjunction with Static Cage/PotA later on.

 

 

Hmm, and now I am thinking of pre-Skyhold build with LHS passives, Leaping Shot and no Full Draw...

[Matth85]

How do you get ticks of 100 damage at early level? That would mean you have 400 base weapon damage?

 

I actually have no idea. The ticks vary from 65-100, and the base damage of my weapon is 85. It got me confused as well. 

 

Since I am going for Artificer, Leaping Shot is integral.

 

Aye. If this was post-skyhold I would go for Leaping Shot as well. But since I do not got any specialization, leaping shot doesn't benefit me. Evade is more efficient for dodging.

 

 

If you are going poison, wouldn't it make sense to take Explosive Toxin as well? It stacks with Poisoned weapon, as far as I tested. Could be useful for mobs, especially in conjunction with Static Cage/PotA later on

 

It's lack of points that concerns me. Posioned Weapones are mediocre at best, and I am on the bench considering trading it out for Dance of Death. The extra stamina would mean more abilities, since the crit is very low early game. (I managed 20% not crafting anything). Other possibilities would be to get the threat reduction and the Knockout Powder for CC.

I guess my point is: The last 2 points(or 3 as human) Are very subjective. They can go anywhere. Poisoned Weapons is not that great. You could even get Leaping Shot instead. At lest the 25% damage on elevation is worthy to get, as the damage stacks nicely with a good Full Draw hit

 

And yes, I play with FF off. The game is not designed with FF in mind, and by using it I don't find it more challenging or fun: I  just can't use abilities such as Fire Mine, Explosive Shot, Mighty Blow, etc. It simply forces me into more one-sided builds that I do not enjoy. It's not like DA:O or DA:I where you could aim a cone ability to just hit enemies and not your allies, or stacking fire resistance to bombard enemies with fire spells and living. No, here friendly fire does 3 thing:

1) Force you to not use certain abilities. Boring!

2) Is irrelevant, since your tank takes no damage and you are an all out ranged team.

3) It murders you melee dps.

It is also unfair you take friendly fire, but enemies does not. How does that make sense?! If that would be fixed, I might enjoy FF a bit more!

[Blackstork]

Please state full subtrefuge build as another option as starter DW rogue build. Not mentioning as start-friendly and small side note is not enough, its really good for anything pre-skyhold. IT actually better in soem cases than one you hilight in some boss encounters , at very least.

What is the build? Full subtrefuge, no more , no less, with every single upgrade and perk. 2 CC, 1 damage ability which shortens all cds, evade, improved stealth, armour reduction from stealth and mercy killing. In some encounters CC and combo exploit > damage abilities on NM.

[Matth85]

I will start a new playthrough, and record it, this weekend trying that build. If I like it, I'll write it down

[Blackstork]

Ok mate, look for :

1. CC-lock + SS combo archers and terrors. KP + Dispell + SS is your main combo followed by Winter grasp and shatterer from ranged char (Varric or Sera)

2. SS spellbinders or RT horrors or terrors

3. Detonate at every oportunity. Solas is valuable addition with eldritch detonators and winter grasp.

4. Try to have maximum use of mercy killing. You can time KP>SS from stealth combo for max damage and detonation for nigthmare in same time, followed by panicked state.

5. Try to use panicked state alot and use Jars of Bees as they will provide you crits.

6. If Make Champions of the Just swap to bow before Envy Demon fight. Stock Jars of Bees for the Boss , and devastate him with auto-crit ranged attacks till he changes form, than its cakewalk., other encounters doable just by CC and shatter/rupture comboing

[Magma_Axis]

All right, let me get to this too. My mage build will be Static Cage based, as you all know i worship that spell

 

1. Barrier = A must for mages, self explanatory

2. Energy Barrage = Best single target damage spells, another must have

3. Immolate = cheap nuke spells, decent DOT

4. Fade step = excellent mobility spell

5. Static Cage+ upgrade = Bread and butter of my build, CC, DPS, Primer in one package

6. Dispel

 

Other points reserved for passive :  Flashpoint, Winter Stillness, Conductive current, Peaceful aura, and the useless Static Charge

I dont use clean burn because at this stage we cant cast too many spells at once

 

Standard rotation is trap enemies with SC, auto attack few times, use Energy barrage to trigger lightning damage and flashpoint, auto attack few times, use immolate

[sirdario1986]

Alright, I'll try to follow your steps for the 2H DPS warrior, cause I'm really having a few problems on NM, I get hit very hard and ranged enemies really kill me fast....

[SpaceV3gan]

Please state full subtrefuge build as another option as starter DW rogue build. Not mentioning as start-friendly and small side note is not enough, its really good for anything pre-skyhold. IT actually better in soem cases than one you hilight in some boss encounters , at very least.
What is the build? Full subtrefuge, no more , no less, with every single upgrade and perk. 2 CC, 1 damage ability which shortens all cds, evade, improved stealth, armour reduction from stealth and mercy killing. In some encounters CC and combo exploit > damage abilities on NM.

Would that work for an archer too? Maybe with added Longshot and some passives...
I am considering re-rolling one on NM soon.

[swk3000]

I figure I'll explain why I like the choices I made.

Chain Lightning - when this spell hits it's first target, it looks for a second enemy within 5 or 9 meters (depending on whether you have the upgrade or not). If it finds one, it hits them for equal damage, the does another check. The interesting thing is, the initial enemy counts! Now, normally, it will try to hit a different target than o e it arced from, but if there are only two enemies, it will happily arc bac and forth between them until it has run out of hits. This means that if there are only two enemies, this spell can deal 750% weapon damage to each one when upgraded. It can also spread the Shocked rebuff to anyone it hits, increasing the damage they take from magical attacks to help increase damage.

Immolate - you're correct when you say that this is a weaker Fire Mine. However, Fire Mine has a huge disadvantage: you have to wait for your target to stop moving, cast the spell, then hope that they don't move for 3 seconds. If this happens, then yes, you get massive damage, but relying on an enemy staying still for a whopping 3-4 seconds is asking a bit much. Immolate, on the other hand, can be used much more easily, as it fires instantly. More than once, I've used it on Melee enemies who are charging towards my party, and managed to hit them while they're on the move. That's something I can't do with Fire Mine. Now, if I had my way, I'd happily take both, but in the early game, you generally have to choose what you get carefully, so I go with Immolate. It's simply more reliable.

Winter's Grasp - personally, I'm not a huge fan of Winter's Grasp, as it's mana cost is higher than I'd like. However, it *is* Crown Control, so that's why I took it. That, and the fact that there are enemies who are weak to Cold damage, so it's good to have on hand. With Immolate and Chain Lighting, you're able to hit most elemental weaknesses.

Lightning Bolt - I present this as an alternative to Stormbringer, not as a must-have. Personally, I go with Stormbringer myself.

Stormbringer - I'm not particularly big on this myself, but I need it to get to Gathering Storm. Since this is just free damage, it wins over Lighting Bolt.

Gathering Storm - this is for the cool down reduction. You point out that I don't have much in the way of Mana Regen, and you're right. However, whe I do have the mana, this ensures that something is off of cool down for me to fire off, instead of having to wait until the Cooldowns are up.

Now, I can pull the point for the upgrade to Winter's Grasp and put it in Winter Stillness, but you yourself said it's not a great ability. I don't see any other reliable source of mana regen that I can take early, though. The only problem is that I lose the Crowd Control Winter's Grasp would give; to me, Crowd Control is about controlling the crowd, which an AoE slow does perfectly. Losing the ability to hit an area makes it a simple Control spell that is only useful against a single enemy. However, I do see your point on Energy Bombardment, so I will probably pull the point from there instead.

Anyway, while I have 4 abilities, only 3 of them see active use for the most part: Energy Barrage, Chain Lightning, and Immolate. I still have mana issues, but I don't see any way to really fix it before Skyhold. Once I hit Skyhold, I will be taking the Knight Enchanter spec, and Combat Clarity will solve most of my issues. Also, my build will be a hybrid, able to switch between Melee and Ranged at will, so Chain Lightning, Immolate, and Winter's Grasp will also allow me to hit the main Elemtal weaknesses, so investing now will save me time later.

[SpaceV3gan]

Regarding the Hinterlands dragon, my concern is equipment. Loot before getting to Skyhold is generally poor, and for some weapon/armor types it is worse than others.
Though you have access to a few Tier 2 schematics (at a price which isn't very justifiable), I haven't seen a reliable source of Tier 2 material before Skyhold. Tier 1 can be easily farmed and purchased, but not Tier 2.
I am pretty sure the Frostback isn't a dragon meant to be beaten before Skyhold, but now that you mentioned you have done regularly, I feel like trying, though it sounds like it might be the toughest enemy encounter in the game when done on NM before Skyhold.

[Matth85]

The average Ferelden Frostback level 11 pre Skyhold kill takes about 15-20 minutes. The longest was on my mage, which is due to lack of any single target damage spell (I opted for Static cage + Energy Barrage. That took me 25 minutes. 

 

It is, indeed, the toughest fight I have fought in the game. Second only to the last mission of haven. Everything else is cakewalk.