127 réponses à ce sujet

[jdmteggy4life]

which one puts out higher dps

[Precursor Meta]

I'd say assassin, but I could be wrong. I never really played a tempest before. But I know combo-Ing the assassin skill tree with the Dual wielding skill tree can yield some interesting results.

[Magma_Axis]

There are huge debates on this at many rogues threads. Just search and read them

Both are equally OP IMO

[uncledolan]

assassin is probably better generally, but against bosses tempest is better. a thousand cuts is so ridiculous i can take dragons down to to less than 50% with it.. 

[DrekorSilverfang]

Tempest will almost always outdps an assassin.

 

Assassin's big thing is MoD, which is insane overkill against anything that isn't a boss and for those... well tempest has thousand cuts.If you are willing to cheese flask of fire and thousand cuts it's not even a contest tempest is miles ahead. Tempest is also not reliant on stealth, you just need to be flanking which is rather easy.

[Selea]

Tempest will almost always outdps an assassin.

Not true at all. The only thing that makes Tempest so good is Thousand Cuts, that's a focus ability. If Flask of Fire wasn't bugged that meant you could use it only sparsely.
 

Assassin's big thing is MoD, which is insane overkill against anything that isn't a boss and for those... well tempest has thousand cuts.If you are willing to cheese flask of fire and thousand cuts it's not even a contest tempest is miles ahead. Tempest is also not reliant on stealth, you just need to be flanking which is rather easy.

 

No. Assassin's big thing is not just MoD, it is the critical on stealth so that you can focus on crit dmg gear. With Tempest you need crit chance instead but the damage will not increase. This or you go with flanking, but the synergy of crit dmg + dexterity cannot be beaten when you automatically crit.

Both Flask of Fire and Flask of Lightning are really powerful but their short duration make them really as powerful as on paper only in certain situations since Rogues are continually moving around to reposition, and that style is better suited for stealth + attack.

Then you forgot Hidden Blades that in stealth with auto crit and high crit dmg is one of the most insane skills damage wise. Plus Tempest requires many more skill points to begin to shine and 2 slots are for the flasks that are not direct burst damage skills in themselves (add to them a repositioning skill and either stealth plus Thousand Cuts and you have only 3 active burst skills to use; 2 if you also carry MotR). Compare instead an Assassin build that with the same amount of skills invested can carry 5 burst skills all doing very good damage from stealth (3 of which insane damage if used correctly).

Let's say that both have situations into which they shine, however I've tried extensively both and imo Assassin outdamages Tempest in the vast majority of cases if both are specced to their best.

[lastpawn]

It's like this. One does a metric ton of damage. The other does an imperial ton of damage.

[Blackstork]

Not true at all. The only thing that makes Tempest so good is Thousand Cuts, that's a focus ability. If Flask of Fire wasn't bugged that meant you could use it only sparsely.
 

No. Assassin's big thing is not just MoD, it is the critical on stealth so that you can focus on crit dmg gear. With Tempest you need crit chance instead but the damage will not increase. This or you go with flanking, but the synergy of crit dmg + dexterity cannot be beaten when you automatically crit.

Both Flask of Fire and Flask of Lightning are really powerful but their short duration make them really as powerful as on paper only in certain situations since Rogues are continually moving around to reposition, and that style is better suited for stealth + attack.

Then you forgot Hidden Blades that in stealth with auto crit and high crit dmg is one of the most insane skills damage wise. Plus Tempest requires many more skill points to begin to shine and 2 slots are for the flasks that are not direct burst damage skills in themselves (add to them a repositioning skill and either stealth plus Thousand Cuts and you have only 3 active burst skills to use; 2 if you also carry MotR). Compare instead an Assassin build that with the same amount of skills invested can carry 5 burst skills all doing very good damage from stealth (3 of which insane damage if used correctly).

Let's say that both have situations into which they shine, however I've tried extensively both and imo Assassin outdamages Tempest in the vast majority of cases if both are specced to their best.

Let me point on some thing.

Mercy Killing (which is aviable to anyone, and exploitable even more by Tempest) is much much more powerful than Stealth on Crit thingy.

Tempest actually can hit target with full auto-attack crits during FoL, as flanking crit stab with even upgraded KP, i am not talking even about Nightmare chaining and Jars on bosses and elites.

Crit on Stealth is over-rated.

Crit on sleep/panic is under-rated.

You did not used Tempest properly , it seems. Tempest is build for combos, status effects , detonators, and alot of CC, with additional ability to use those for more advantage.

You make and play Tempest as  pseudo-assasin (as your posts reveal) and then you tell that Assasin is better, but you , in first place, should start playing tempest as tempest.

Its about being able to stunlock, cc massive amounts of enemies, perform countless combos, and be more rambo-rogue and more openly aggresive than you can with assassin. You must use all tools given, and i could suggest you just to count Tempest passive damage muplipliers, IW + PW damage and full crit during flanking FoL stab, preceded/followed by 5-6 SS stunlock hits or freezing and shattering couple of enemies, ability to get all enemy blob into nightmare aoe and panicked state, enjoying default skill and auto-attack crit on them without need to waste stealth cd or rely on Stealth Cd, and having stealth CD twice or 3 times less than Assasin's stealth cd. because ability to reduce all your CDs by 20 secons on all skills during the flask of fire.

[Selea]

Let me point on some thing.

Mercy Killing (which is aviable to anyone, and exploitable even more by Tempest) is much much more powerful than Stealth on Crit thingy.

Tempest actually can hit target with full auto-attack crits during FoL, as flanking crit stab with even upgraded KP, i am not talking even about Nightmare chaining and Jars on bosses and elites.

Crit on Stealth is over-rated.

Crit on sleep/panic is under-rated.

You did not used Tempest properly , it seems. Tempest is build for combos, status effects , detonators, and alot of CC, with additional ability to use those for more advantage.

You make and play Tempest as  pseudo-assasin (as your posts reveal) and then you tell that Assasin is better, but you , in first place, should start playing tempest as tempest.

Its about being able to stunlock, cc massive amounts of enemies, perform countless combos, and be more rambo-rogue and more openly aggresive than you can with assassin. You must use all tools given, and i could suggest you just to count Tempest passive damage muplipliers, IW + PW damage and full crit during flanking FoL stab, preceded/followed by 5-6 SS stunlock hits or freezing and shattering couple of enemies, ability to get all enemy blob into nightmare aoe and panicked state, enjoying default skill and auto-attack crit on them without need to waste stealth cd or rely on Stealth Cd, and having stealth CD twice or 3 times less than Assasin's stealth cd. because ability to reduce all your CDs by 20 secons on all skills during the flask of fire.

 

With KB you have yet another slot taken by a skill that does no burst damage in itself (and with Tempest you have little slots for damage skills already). You are now stuck with 2 burst damage skills (3 if you cut on a defensive skill, but the primary burst ones will always be those 2 since you have not enough skill points to take other powerful ones). When Flask of Fire is on CD you have no many ways to do reliable damage.

I'm sorry but I don't see from where all your "perform countless combos" comes from, sincerely, given how Flask of Fire doesn't even remotely last so long as to give you chance to do more than 3 successive Twin Fangs (if the situation is good), and how outside of Fire Flask (that has a long CD) you can hit at most 2 enemies with a burst ability (if one of those two is at least at 60% health, elsewhere you are stuck with only 1 powerful burst skill every 8 sec until this happens).

 

Moreover you speak as if KB had an AOE effect large enough to be a reliable way to do burst damage with it using the sleep effect as a crit starter on many enemies. Fact is that it is very situational and it works as you say only when enemies are clustered together and there are not so many instances on where this happens reliably. Compare this with stealth + crit when it doesn't matter where enemies are and you have all the burst skills you want and it's obvious that the source of damage is more reliable in many circumstances in the Assassin's case.

As for the various Tempest builds and way to play the spec: I didn't even remotely address this concept in my post above. I just talked about attribute synergies, slots for burst damage abilities and skill points requirements. I didn't enter at all in different builds and so I don't know from where you got the idea that I use a Tempest as a pseudo-assassin.

I'm not saying that Tempest is not effective and not very powerful, I'm just saying that the damage done with Assassin in the majority of situations is greater than Tempest for many of the motives I've explained (the primary one being the lack of skill slots to do effective burst damage outside of Flask of Fire).

[Blackstork]

With KB you have yet another slot taken by a skill that does no burst damage in itself (and with Tempest you have little slots for damage skills already). You are now stuck with 2 burst damage skills or 1 if you take both focus skills. When Flask of Fire is on CD what the hell do you do to do some damage?

I'm sorry but I don't see from where all your "perform countless combos" comes from, sincerely, given how Flask of Fire doesn't even remotely last so long as to give you chance to do more than 3 successive Twin Fangs (if you are lucky), and how outside of Fire Flask you can hit at most 2 enemies with a burst ability (if you are EXTREMELY lucky that one of those two is at below 50% health, elsewhere what you are stuck with only 1 burst skill only), and Fire Flask has 32 seconds CD.

 

Moreover you speak as if KB had an AOE effect large enough to be effective in all situations. Fact is that it is very situational and it works as you say only when enemies are clustered and there are not so many instances on where this happens. Compare this with stealth + crit when it doesn't matter where enemies are and you have all the burst skills you want and it is all another thing, I'm sorry.

I'm not saying that Tempest is not effective and very powerful, I'm just saying that the damage done with Assassin in the majority of situation is greater than Tempest for many of the motives I've explained (the primary being the lack of skill slots to do effective burst damage).

Your post proves my point, that you just do not know how.

 

1. KP is hight damage ability, if you learn how to use it.

Uses :

a. Well placed from stealth as initiation, followed by mage detonation effect in aoe nightmare and panicked status.  Once panicked , you can unleash your SS on fire flask combo to stunlock and auto-crit target with it for few times.

b. If KP upgraded used right before or right after FoL activation, this means you will do huge ton of auto-crit auto-attacks during that time. This means ALL your attacks during FoL will be critical hits. Skills included , because target takes 3 sec to wake up, which are not 3 sec for you being FoL tempest.

 

2. Perfect rotation and flask mastery, and use of spammed SS reduce my flask CD by 20 seconds, so we talk about 14 cd for FoL, which really means i can use 8 sec FoL after each 14-18 sec if i have to hit stuff with my spammed SS.

 

3. Combos. Are you kidding me? SS spammed on area stunned (templar for example) or Frozen targets result with 4+ ruptures/shaterings, while Flask of Frost is BEST freezer in the game and so powerful CC that beats old DA:O cone of cold. It just freezes stuff for damn 8 seconds. Assuming you have good timing you can shatter more of those. Tempest is combo factory, if you played tempest and say that he is not you simply didnt played it.

 

4. Agression and invulnerability. Use of shortened CDs and ability to spam CD reducing ability means you can re-stealth on will, without even need to kill target. During some stages you just do not need to since you are more protected than your tank. 

 

5. FoFrost takes alot of aggro from your tank making his life easier.

 

6. Being able to dive and not to afraid this provides you non stop and straightforward approach, while assasin rotates like burst > reposition > wait > flank > burst, and have quite more risks at performing TF > DB combo cause he is very vulnerable during that time. 

 

7. Thousand Cuts.

 

8. Nice , almost constant damage multipliers coming from Tempest passives

 

9. +1 grenade. I would suggest not to 

 

10. Guaranteed stun-lock vs very dangerous mobile targets like Despairs, Terrors, Harlequins , Spellbinders.

 

Having damage and applying that damage properly and all the time while being able to adapt is just two different things which yeld same results. I love assasin too , but i think its just different and they both have alot of things to offer. 

But you really should try to combo stuff properly and use Mercy Killing. This is basic stuff that with some creativity bring better results than your "stealth on kill" and "crit from stealth " thingies. I think that "do massive combo damage", "crit all the time" , "have stealth almost at will" and "stunlock and kill high danger target " , "cc all the battlefield and kill, crit and combo them at your will" sounding better even if not better, one thing for sure - you should not neglect it and try to persuade people and me that such things do not exist. Simply , you  had no opportunity to use them / do so, it seems.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Tempest will almost always outdps an assassin.

 

Assassin's big thing is MoD, which is insane overkill against anything that isn't a boss and for those... well tempest has thousand cuts.If you are willing to cheese flask of fire and thousand cuts it's not even a contest tempest is miles ahead. Tempest is also not reliant on stealth, you just need to be flanking which is rather easy.

 

Calling it cheese is an understatement. IMO obvious exploits and game bugs should not be considered a factor. People who use flask of fire + TC exploit are no different from people using the console command to enable god-mode. This is a game-breaking bug which makes the game trivial even if playing solo NM.

I cant speak for Tempest. But I can speak for Assassin. I played through nightmare with a Rogue assassin on nightmare and the game was easy. Damage output was insane and escape skills as rogue are so good that the only people I see complaining about melee rogues on NM mode is people who cant play or thinks that rogue should be played as a warrior - tanking a hurlock alpha to the face.

 

Bottom line: Tempest and Assassin are both very powerful specs. Any player of mediocre skill or higher can easily finish nightmare mode without the use of cheese or exploits with these two classes as they are. Rogues can infact complete nightmare problem-free even without specializations. The base combat, utility and escape skills of rogues regardless of bow vs dagger - are strong enough by themselves to handle any situation.

Source: Completed NM as rogue archer without spec (didnt know the trainers were gained through war table!) and completed the game with 10/10 dragons killed on NM mode on a DW rogue assassin. Zero exploits or cheese used

[Blackstork]

...

Good point, agree here. They are both powerful, and no cheese needed. They are different, and each one have own powers. Tempest needs creativity and Assassin persistence. There no better option, its about preference, but you should learn and adapt to the styles,   which are quite different in their "end-point".

 

Also i agree, its possible to play no-spec dw rogue and to be good. That will require some mixed approach - high burst ability rotations combined with combos/effects/cc and Mercy Killing. 

[TeamLexana]

It just sounds like personal preference to me. I made a Tempest DW but I think I may have should have gone Assassin. Although, the tempest probably has better survivability for when I need to direct control other party members because apparently tactics aren't a thing in DAI. Tempest is the main reason why I like Sera over Varric, Varric has better passives that help everyone but if he's dead most of the time, it doesn't matter, lol.

[Selea]

1. KP is hight damage ability, if you learn how to use it.

 

Not in itself. It is a starter skill to do damage (e.g. a skill to kickstart damage with a combo), NOT a damage skill in itself. There is a substantial difference between the two concepts.

 

a. Well placed from stealth as initiation, followed by mage detonation effect in aoe nightmare and panicked status.  Once panicked , you can unleash your SS on fire flask combo to stunlock and auto-crit target with it for few times.

 

And, also in this case, the AOE (5 meters) is not so large as to encompass all enemies in a reliable way. It is extremely good when enemies are clustered, but it doesn't happen in all circumstances (and neither in the majority of them).

 

b. If KP upgraded used right before or right after FoL activation, this means you will do huge ton of auto-crit auto-attacks during that time. This means ALL your attacks during FoL will be critical hits. Skills included , because target takes 3 sec to wake up, which are not 3 sec for you being FoL tempest

Criticals on auto attacks are a total waste on nightmare, even on a DW rogue. You are actually wasting time and a FoL, seriously (apart in some specific cases as Longbow of the Griffon against a Dragon). Even a Twin Fangs flank crit (1000% weapon damage x crit dmg) on nightmare does not do enough damage in itself to even single-handedly kill a normal enemy (only on endgame) and you are talking about normal attacks? C'mon...

 

3. Combos. Are you kidding me? SS spammed on area stunned (templar for example) or Frozen targets result with 4+ ruptures/shaterings, while Flask of Frost is BEST freezer in the game and so powerful CC that beats old DA:O cone of cold. It just freezes stuff for damn 8 seconds. Assuming you have good timing you can shatter more of those. Tempest is combo factory, if you played tempest and say that he is not you simply didnt played it.

Hmmm, so are you either using Flask of Frost? Then you are stuck with 1 (1!!!!) burst ability. Are you really serious or are you just really theorycrafting here? Did you actually count the skill slot requirements? You don't have all the slots you want, do you know it do you? You are stuck with 8. If you take all 3 flasks plus KP you are stuck with only 1 burst ability (given defensive/positioning skills and focus skill). I guess you just auto attack practically all the time....
P.S: It's not that you cannot do these combos you are addressing with Assassin and even better (since you have more burst skills) btw. Weren't we talking about Tempest and KP specifically here?

 

4. Agression and invulnerability. Use of shortened CDs and ability to spam CD reducing ability means you can re-stealth on will, without even need to kill target. During some stages you just do not need to since you are more protected than your tank. 

 

 

The stealth on killing is more than enough. It is like the difference from having 101 million dollars a day instead than 100. You don't really notice the difference if not just because you need to notice it.
 

 

5. FoFrost takes alot of aggro from your tank making his life easier.

 

And if you also take FoF you gimp your damage even more for what? "Making tank's life easier"? As if Cassandra or Blackwall had problems with damage in the game... The more you talk the more it seems to me you are actually saying all your are saying from a completely theoretical point of view as nothing of it has a real validation on practical gameplay. 
 

6. Being able to dive and not to afraid this provides you non stop and straightforward approach, while assasin rotates like burst > reposition > wait > flank > burst, and have quite more risks at performing TF > DB combo cause he is very vulnerable during that time. 

 

We have already talked about how stealth from kills is more than enough to remove aggro efficiently. Given this the "vulnerability" aspect is exactly the same. The only circumstance into which Tempest really has less problems is when facing 2 hander or other AOE attacks enemies AND having FoL usable. It's handy, sure, but +guard items do it even better with no tying to build.

[Selea]

 

 

7. Thousand Cuts.

 

 

The only real point you made till now and one well known. Still Assassins have MoD and Hidden Blades, both of which can be used in all encounters differently from Thousand Cuts (not taking in consideration the bug on FoF here). They are not as damaging, but they aren't a focus ability either (so you can use them on normal encounters without wasting them).
 

8. Nice , almost constant damage multipliers coming from Tempest passives

 

Are you really comparing this to the crit damage from stealth, armor penetration and damage on hurt foes of Assassin's passives? Oh well....

 

10. Guaranteed stun-lock vs very dangerous mobile targets like Despairs, Terrors, Harlequins , Spellbinders.

Guaranteed kills of the same with Assassin by using MoD + Stealth + Hidden Blades + MoD. Can you guess which one of the two is best?
 

 

Having damage and applying that damage properly and all the time while being able to adapt is just two different things which yeld same results. I love assasin too , but i think its just different and they both have alot of things to offer. 

 

 

That's right. Having damage and applying damage are two different things, you said it. In fact Tempest in theory has huge damage numbers but in practice those damage numbers are difficult to apply in a reliable way (i.e. in all circumstances). Lack of skill slots and skill points and no way to do reliable burst damage outside of FoF means that the spec really shines only when certain circumstances are met (as your mentioned sleep for crits on many enemies). When the situation is right the Tempest is the most damaging spec, but sadly this doesn't happen in a reliable way. Given this, and as I said, in the majority of cases the Assassin damage surpass easily the one of Tempest.

In little words: the Tempest has the greatest damage potential, while the Assassin has the greatest average damage.

 

 

[Blackstork]

@Selea excuse me but you are clueless. Each your comment have a lot to correct, you misunderstand or misinterpret things and do some clueless comments in it. I have 150 h experience playing tempest (add more for other class tryouts/mp) exclusively for different playthroughts on NM with FF on, including new one which attempt tempest with only one companion (almost solo). And I won't even be arsed to continue this pointless talk.
You do not understand what I talking about because you judge from theorycraft and did not tried to combo things I suggest.
You should proceed doings things your way, you are really clueless and perhaps people can explain to you how things work if you properly playing tempest. You do not. You are theory crafting about tempest and do not know how things I talk about work in practice. Go argue with some else. Argue closed.

A lot of people say that those 2 claasess are equal and just very different play styles so hard to compare. At least listen to them if you fail to see how tempest rotations should be used.

[szemyq]

To hop into this discussion, if you underestimate auto attacks during a FoL you really should give it a try. In my opinion this is one of the best burstabilities in the game (outside of focusskills). But to give an honest opinion on this topic i think a good group contains a tempest as well as an assassin rogue. At least in my group these are the main pillars that get never replaced.

[Khevar]

@Blackstork, not sure if you've left this thread for good or not, but I was curious about one thing.

 

What are the 8 abilities you picked for your Tempest's hotbar?

[szemyq]

FoL, FoF and shadow strike are your bread and butter damage and utility skills. I would allways have them on the bar. Flanking strike and or evade if you need movementskills. PW + upgrade scales very well with FoL autoattacks. Twin fangs if you want more detonators as a dw. Longshot as your prime FoF nuker if you go archer. Thousand cuts are to consider as well, though i personally dont use it too often. But generally i would say go and try it and you will see what you are missing/barely using and slot accordingly.

[Typhar]

I had a super easy time with Tempest on hard. IMO people haven't been playing it optimally (Focus exploit is lame, and Tempest is ridiculously powerful without it). Assassin can burst targets down quicker, but it's also reliant on cooldowns; Tempest has much better sustained damage because it never has to stop attacking. Flasks should be chugged constantly with little downtime, so how you fight comes in 3 phases:

 

1. Frost. I start with this because it doesn't really need the duration increase. This is what lets you rambo in while taking no damage, setting up a bunch of freeze combos. Some people like to finish their own combos with Killing Blow, which is powerful, but I think it's a waste of points and ability slots (especially because KB is bugged to not restore stamina with Dance of Death). Party members finished combos just fine for me.

 

2. Lighting. This is where I go crazy with autoattacks. No other DW spec gives you such a perfect window to abuse flanking damage, allowing you to safely destroy any target, no matter how stupidly circular his 2-hander's AOE attacks are. If there's a rift, disrupt it for free. If it's a boss fight, chug a +damage pot (with +100% crit damage) for stupid DPS; who needs mark of death?

 

3. Fire. IMO, the best ability to spam here is Throwing Blades. It has a quick animation so you can fit a lot of them in this window. The range keeps you safe during the only phase where you take damage (+flank attack if you've drawn aggro), and means you don't have to waste time chasing down targets. 

 

I would also not bother with shadow strike which whiffs for me most of the time due to its terrible animation and range. IMO, Tempest is an autoattacker who occasionally goes into ability-spam mode, aiming to proc the Hidden Blades masterwork as much as possible. It's sort of mindless, honestly, though nothing beats the satisfaction of watching four enemies die simultaneously to hidden blades when lightning flask ends.

[SpaceV3gan]

Flask of Lightning + auto attack is the most absurd and ridiculous damage spike there is, even more than Flask of Fire + Focus glitch. I won't even comment what is having both in one character.

Using Longbow of the Griffon, I took the Hissing Wastes Dragon down in one cast of Flask of Lightning, and most other Dragons in 3 casts. Playing on Nightmare. You guys can try it yourselves.
There is no way an Assassin or any other specialization can out damage a Tempest. They could be somewhat more appealing, but not out damage.

[lastpawn]

I want to zero in on this:

 

3. Combos. Are you kidding me? SS spammed on area stunned (templar for example) or Frozen targets result with 4+ ruptures/shaterings, while Flask of Frost is BEST freezer in the game and so powerful CC that beats old DA:O cone of cold. It just freezes stuff for damn 8 seconds. Assuming you have good timing you can shatter more of those. Tempest is combo factory, if you played tempest and say that he is not you simply didnt played it.

 

Is that right about the 8 second Flask of Frost freeze? For some reason I thought it was very short.

[szemyq]

 
3. Fire. IMO, the best ability to spam here is Throwing Blades. It has a quick animation so you can fit a lot of them in this window. The range keeps you safe during the only phase where you take damage (+flank attack if you've drawn aggro), and means you don't have to waste time chasing down targets. 
 

Actually i like this thought process

[Drunk Dutch Dude]

As others have stated, Tempest is a lot better. Better though, it is more fun aswell. You get to feel unique as a Tempest while as an Assasin you just have a few more standard abilities.

[Zenthar Aseth]

As others have stated, Tempest is a lot better. Better though, it is more fun aswell. You get to feel unique as a Tempest while as an Assasin you just have a few more standard abilities.

I found Tempest pretty boring.