127 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

Tempest is even more passive than Assassin. You pop a flask and spam your normal attacks. The flasks have moderate CD. Don't get me wrong I love my tempest because whet it doesn't have in damage like an assassin it far makes up with utility, by having an aoe freeze pot you can use to protect the mages when they're getting overrun or a liquid lightning flask to take out dangeour enemies without even suffering damage on your allies.

 

Assassin shines at certain areas, but does lose out in others. In a non min/max optimal setting an assassin is the better specialization.

 

Tempest is different. It got 1 dps ability and 2 survivability ones. From a raw playstyle it's boring, but if you focus on combo (Shatter, Knockout Powder +  crit on sleeping target + Flask of Lightning) it's pretty fun.

 

It stands between:

Assassin - enforces clssic rogue playstyle. Monster damage in burtsts.

Tempest - changes playstyle to a more pseudo-warrior-kind-of-playstyle with a hint of combomadness and funsies for all.

[lastpawn]

It stands between:

Assassin - enforces clssic rogue playstyle. Monster damage in burtsts.

Tempest - changes playstyle to a more pseudo-warrior-kind-of-playstyle with a hint of combomadness and funsies for all.

 

I agree. The game, even on Nightmare, is forgiving enough that you can comfortably choose based on personal preference rather than some sort of need to min/max.

[Selea]

@Selea

Reading your posts i have real conclusion that you are clueless and very stubborn. We will finish it here. You just do not understand/realize/gave ego/whaterver crap you have and you make yourself dumb.

 

Yes, yes. I'm so dumb I've proven you wrong over and over again. Oh well...
 

 I wont make some maths and play for you if you are not able too. Proofs? You want me to post pictures, doing maths and make videos? You go and check and try it propely. Play tempest. Learn. Proofs are other people who say that you are wrong.

 

 

I've played Tempest, much more than you that talk only of idiocies. 3 Flasks + Knockout Powder, lol! Only someone that has NEVER played the class can really insist that taking Flask of Frost + Knockout Powder hence remaining with only 1 burst skill on a Tempest DW build is a good thing. OMG.
As for proofs you have none, apart your babbling. Words are easy. Let's see your phantomatic build with 3 flasks and Knockoud Powder in action, I'm really curious, seriously. Let's see where you fit all your burst skills in 8 slots (probably you have found a way with Cheat Engine to have more slots, isn't it?) Let's see the phantomatic 15k auto attacks that nobody can do but you.

 

I wont teach you about what is shatter damage, and what is aoe nightmare damage, and what happens if they are being chained non-stop

You have nothing to teach. And what is shatter damage everyone knows, the problem is that with 1 only burst skill (Twin Fangs in this instance) what the hell do you do against the other targets? Oh, yes, you autoattack them, I forgot...
 

I wont teach you to use Mercy Killing that you not only crit from stealth but crit ALL the time with proper action.

 

No, you don't, because the AoE is only 6 meters and in the majority of circumstances you just get 2 or 3 enemies in it. And then, even if you get all the targets in the AoE what the hell do you do anyway? You attack with normal attacks for 600-800 damage after Flask of Fire has ended and you wait for your only burst skill to return? Huuuuugeeee. With Spinning Blades I can do 5 times more in the same AoE in half the time (probably a third of the time actually). Great work!

 

I wont make you undesrtand that CC = more damage in many cases because, actually of ability to apply it, compared by "Potential" damage which you have but can not apply or apply and die as assasin.

 

CC is not equal more damage you absolute incompetent. Why don't you research a little on what you are talking about? You are sounding more and more pathetic as time passes, I tell you. These are basic things that I cannot either bore to try to explain to you because everybody should know them already. A CC means more damage ONLY when you can capitalize on that CC, elsewhere it just remains CC and nothing more.
 

I wont make precise calculations to showcase how much damage FoL autotattacks with auto-crit do. They do alot, you understimate it, to very least. With simple random gear, i wont even mention +crit damage hoarding gear builds.

 

I already know that, thanks, I don't need you to "teach" that to me. When with your great autoattacks you can do more damage than Twin Fangs + Deathblow or Stealth + Spinning Blades come to tell me, want you? Even better, prove it with a video. Want to teach? Then demonstrate your great build for me, the unbeliever to see. Let's have some laughing.

I know perfectly you will never show anything because you have anything at all. There are a lot of Tempest builds videos in Youtube of expert builder and NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM uses your "great" strategy of 3 Flasks + Knockout Powder. Why? Because it doesn't work as you say and it is a subpar build that only an imbecile would use, if not for roleplay reasons. 4 skills go away for not directly damaging skills, 2 you will need for defense and or you skip on Thousand Cuts (the best focus ability in the game) or then you are stuck with only 1 (1!!!!!!) burst skill to use, that also with Flask of Fire means only 2-3 bursts at once (if you are lucky, given how you need to position to flank to do the majority of damage with Twin Fangs) to then wait 32 secs for the CD to be able to do that again. Only someone like you can pretend a build like this can be even remotely better than an Assassin's one with 4-5 burst skills (1 of which the best in the game and the other spammable) + MoD and automatic crit on Stealth on those bursts, seriously (you don't either need a Focus ability with that build as strong as it is).

Your "build" would work much better, in fact, on an Assassin (Knockout Bomb + Mercy Killing) because it has more slots and skills points to waste. However also in this case almost nobody of some relevance uses it because there are many better options. You have really no idea of what the hell you are talking about, seriously.
 

I wont explain that being able to restealth frequently during boss/elites fight without killing anyone is better, being able to tank , pull aggro and freeze targets is better , and being able to flank and evade even swinging 2h toughtie is better - they are better because you are unhindered to apply the damage.

You can do it better with an Assassin, can you understand it? Now this is amusing, are you REALLY pretending that a Tempest build can re-stealth better than an Assassin's build can? No, let me understand, are you really trying to pretend this? Let me know because you are slowly becoming the parody of the thread.
 

I wont explain that you do not do damage when assasin 100% of time. You flank, wait for cd, AA and what not between your bursts. Tempest % working time is much more , and he does soemthing/dps when Assasin does not. He offers sustained CC/dps/detonations , and he do something beyond flanking or autoattacking when Assasin scratch balls with all abilties on CD.

 

1. In YOUR build you have no bursts because you have no slots. What the hell are you talking about bursts is beyond me, you have NONE.
2. The DPS your Tempest build does is laughable at best. It is purely based on critical hits on normal attacks that only you insist are a great way to do damage and nobody else (and in fact there are absolutely no videos around of good people that do such, all prioritize bursts damage for a reason).
3. Assassin NEVER "scratch balls" with abilities on CD. You REALLY have no idea of what the hell are you talking about, isn't it? Ah, the hypocrisy. It's evident you never even played the spec, ffs. I don't either know if you even ever played a DW Rogue to begin with. The more you talk and the more I start to understand that probably you never really did.
4. You have NOTHING to explain. Step down your high horse, it is just a little pony.

Now you have seriously bored me. Either show something or stop pretending to be an expert. It is time you demonstrate that you actually have even a minimal idea of what the hell you are trying to babble about. Post a video of your "great" build with 3 Flasks and Knockout Powder decimating something like Suledin's Keep on Nightmare better than an Assassin build can or STFU.

[QuantumAdam]

Assassin, It's a close range meat grinder, Tempest is the long range meat grinder. Although thousand cuts can be glitched for now it wont be forever. On the other hand, mark of the rift mark of death plus thousand cuts thrown in can yield some devastating numbers, I have seen maximum of 72k, but it was only at level 18, so it could be even more. I guess what I'm saying is both is invaluable to a good party. 

[Trickshaw]

Look, I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with people who are clearly butthurt on a personal level because their preferred class isn't considered "top tier" by some random anonymous poster 1/2 way around the world but I will say this:

 

The video people keep posting of an Assassin dropping a dragon in 20s is attributed to gear, plain and simple.  Anyone stacking ArP, Attack% and a Superb Dragon Slaying Rune  is going to hit those numbers vs. a dragon.  Having a pair of 500dps dragon slaying daggers isn't some Assassin only trick.  Anyone who plays the f***ing game can do it.

 

You can just as soon have VARRIC take a dragon down solo with the same time if you gear him appropriately.  It's not a super ninja trick.  It's not a hack.  It's called f***ing MATH.  You can get 80% ArP with non-master daggers and grips ALONE.

 

People need to check their egos at the door.  Just because someone prefers one specialty over another isn't a personal affront.  It's called taste and it varies from one person to the next.

 

Get over yourselves already.

[Zahnen]

I tried to read this thread... but every time I see Blackdork's word vomit I just have to close the tab.

[konnect13123]

 Hey ladies and gents, I have a question that hopefully someone can answer. Currently my shadow strike does not auto crit from stealh with knife in shadows, it also does not refresh the cooldown on stealth. I have reloaded previous saves and cole has the same issue, I'm not sure if the new patch caused this. Does Shadow Strike supposed to auto crit as well? If Shadow strike is indeed glitched should I just start over and hope for the best? Thanks

[zeypher]

K how is spinning blades on an assassin, overkill in terms of too many skills? not needed?.

[E.T.I.]

Assasin with bow, +4 hidden blade proc, +5 hidden blade proc, +25% ARP and rest in Crit DMG.

 

Stealth - MoD - Assa focus ability - Leaping Shot - Hidden Blades - Throwing Knives - Full Draw/Long shot - OH wait is this dragon already dead.

 

For real, this **** is totally broken.

[Selea]

The video people keep posting of an Assassin dropping a dragon in 20s is attributed to gear, plain and simple. 

No, it is not. Actually the crafting on that video is extremely subpar (even on admission of the creator) because the stats on the daggers are moderate at best (and neither optimized to fighting a dragon). Equipping slaying runes when against dragons is nothing out of the ordinary, in nightmare you SHOULD do it in every instance.

Actually the only videos where you see incredibly optimized builds and items are Tempest videos because they usually cannot with skills only (apart Thousands Cuts, but that's situational since it is a focus skill that outside the bug could not be used in every encounter) provide the same burst damage an Assassin can and so they have to fill the gap with gear.

[tisdfogg]

No, it is not. Actually the crafting on that video is extremely subpar (even on admission of the creator) because the stats on the daggers are moderate at best (and neither optimized to fighting a dragon). 

 

 

Source please? Couldn't find any info on his gear and I'm genuinely interested. On a side note, I'm actually more impressed with his first video when he actually has to fight the dragon for a bit. 

[Selea]

It's in the "Archer or DW Rogue" thread:

 

I used the default names that it gave the blades after I crafted them. The one with the dragon rune was a "Deadly Healing Dagger" with 380 DPS, 116 damage, +32 damage vs. dragons, +11% critical dmg bonus, +6 heal on kill. The other with the corrupting rune was "Bleeding Brutal Dagger" with 355 DPS, 106 damage, +32 dmg vs corrupted, +6% attack, +7% bleed on hit, on dying: 10% chance to heal for half health.

The stats could have been much better if I'd had better cloths/leathers, but I'd used them on a Masterwork Dual-Blade slicer that I wound up not using.

As you see, no Hidden Blades masterwork was used and no great +crit dmg, +flank or +dex leather cloths either. The daggers are quite suboptimal for the scope apart for the dragon slaying rune (+heal on kill serves nothing against a dragon, +bleed on hit is bugged, and chance to heal is worthless to have imo).

Modifié par Selea, 12 décembre 2014 - 12:38 .

[tisdfogg]

It's in the "Archer or DW Rogue" thread:

 

As you see, no Hidden Blades masterwork was used and no great +crit dmg, +flank or +dex leather cloths either. The daggers are quite suboptimal for the scope apart for the dragon slaying rune (+heal on kill serves nothing against a dragon, +bleed on hit is bugged, and chance to heal is worthless to have imo).

 

Was hoping for a screenshot of the stats - not that I don't believe you, he just seems to crit all the time even out of stealth with auto-attacks, maybe it's just the clusterfuck on the screen that covers up smaller numbers tho. Still kudos for the guy, I had no idea you could use archery passives! On the other hand it kinda killed my enthusiasm for Assassin. I'm no minmaxer and it seems I'm going to trivialize my game as soon as I pick up tier 3 equipment anyway :/. Maybe I'll reroll Arty just for the lulz. 

[Selea]

Those words I quoted comes directly from the author of the video so I don't understand why do you need a picture instead. Why should he lie (it is not ME whom you have to believe as I'm not the one that said those things)? There's no reason at all for him to do such.

Anyway you can see clearly that, for example, there's no Hidden Blades masterwork on the blades as the skill fires only when he actively uses it.

[tisdfogg]

You misunderstand, I simply hoped for something more specific than "the weapons were pretty meh". More often than not, when people do this kind of thing, they provide extensive info on their gear/build. If it isn't there, no worries. If you still find it strange that I asked then you should know that I'm the kind of a guy who would pay money for a DLC with a decent combat log.  

[Trickshaw]

Those words I quoted comes directly from the author of the video so I don't understand why do you need a picture instead.

Because it's bullsh*t.

There's no magical passive that allows you to hit those numbers afforded to Assassins. If the author says he hit those numbers with sub par weaponry I call major shenanigans. Post an unedited video displaying gear and character stats before engaging and then I'll concede the point and then call "bug".

Because there is no passive, or combination of passives, that affords that DPS all on their lonesome. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. The only way to do it is as I stated in my previous post.

[szemyq]

It's in the "Archer or DW Rogue" thread:

As you see, no Hidden Blades masterwork was used and no great +crit dmg, +flank or +dex leather cloths either. The daggers are quite suboptimal for the scope apart for the dragon slaying rune (+heal on kill serves nothing against a dragon, +bleed on hit is bugged, and chance to heal is worthless to have imo).

I am sorry to dissapoint you, but this is not the author of this video. Xarius478 is the author and he only stated to use tier 3 masterwork dual blade daggers.

[mutantspicy]

Artificers are the hipsters of the rogue world!

[Matth85]

Artificers are the hipsters of the rogue world!

It's certainly the hidden gem that is misunderstood and very poorly designed by the developers...

What's not to love?

[Xarius478]

I'm the creator of the video in question, not the person who was quoted earlier.  My gear isn't optimal (I haven't done any sort of number crunching), but it's also not very subpar.  I don't have screenshots (if people want them, I can post them later), but from memory, here's what I used:

Tier 3 Masterwork Dual-Bladed Daggers with Dragon Bones

466 DPS with Superb-Dragon Slaying Runes

+32 Dexterity

+6% Critical Chance

30% Berserk and Hidden Blades with 4 hits (I don't have the 5 hit version)

Armor with +30 Dexterity, +12 Willpower, and 20% bonus damage if not hit for 5 seconds (I don't have the 30% version)
Helm with +12% Critical Chance and +6 Cunning

 

Two +20% Critical Hit Damage Rings

+10 Dexterity Amulet

 

I don't have any Flanking Damage because I didn't want to spend time trying to flank against the dragon.

 

@XFracture: It's true that gear is a very important factor, but it's not the only factor in DPS.  When it comes down to it, DW Assassins simply have the most DPS at their disposal.  

An Artificer's main DPS tool is cooldown reduction through criticals, and DW Rogues already hardly deal with cooldowns: Twin Fangs, Deathblow, and Flank Attack all have 8 second cooldowns, and Deathblow usually has none.  There's also Shadow Strike/Spinning Blades, and the former gives another cooldown reduction.  Finally, Assassins also have Hidden Blades.  

 

With all of these burst skills, the majority of which have low cooldowns, a DW Assassin is hardly ever waiting for cooldowns, largely nullifying the cooldown advantage that an Artificer has.  Then, you factor in Mark of Death, Hidden Blades, Gaps in the Armor, and constant Stealth criticals.  

Another advantage that Assassins have is that they use passives to free up gear slots for more damage.  Assassins don't need much Critical Chance, and already gain nearly maximum Armor Penetration through passives, allowing them to focus on Critical Damage, Flanking Damage, and Dexterity, while an Artificer needs a high Critical Chance.

[Trickshaw]

Tier 3 Masterwork Dual-Bladed Daggers with Dragon Bones

466 DPS with Superb-Dragon Slaying Runes

 

T3 non-masterwork dualies made with dragon bone and a superb dragon slaying comes out to a flat 500dps.  So right off the bat I have to throw your "memory" into question.

 

Assassins don't need much Critical Chance.

 

No DW rogue does.  This is not an "Assassin thing", this is a "rogue thing".  One universal rogue passive takes care of crit% needs.

 

As far as everything else you said... almost the entirety of what you described is applicable to *ALL* DW rogues.  As I keep iterating time and time again, these aren't inherent characteristics of only the Assassin and certainly not the only way people are downing dragons quickly.  The difference between everything you just listed and a vanilla DW rogue with zero specialization is Mark of Doom and Gaps.  And I will say it one more time, those passives aren't the only things making that video possible.

 

Gear is.

 

I'm sorry but gear is 80% of any character's DPS.  Don't believe me?  Same fight, T1 gear.  GOGOGOGO!

[Anelyn77]

Obviously gear does play a role in your performance, both in killing power as well in survival.

 

However, some specs gain more (one or another, or both) from their skill set (good / great / amazing passives, and active skills).

 

Mark alone more than makes up for anything else really, it has no cap on damage it can store in those 8 seconds. Hidden Blades 28s CD with 6 hits (1800% weapon damage in total) is better than procs because you have 100% control when to use it instead of hoping it will proc, and you also have the choice to make all hits automatic criticals. Now add double HB procs from gear and stuff gets nasty really fast.

 

Even more, Assassin is least affected by gear for great performance, unlike Tempest and Artificer. Put T1 (with t1 mats) on all 3 specs, same setup DW or Archery. Guess who will do more damage? 

 

So they have more things going their way than you are saying. If you play the game normally and don't go to farm T3 before skyhold (or before you are actually in the level range of the area), no chest farming, no amulet of power farming etc, Assassin will always come on top of other specs since it's not so dependent on gear to perform.

[Xarius478]

T3 non-masterwork dualies made with dragon bone and a superb dragon slaying comes out to a flat 500dps.  So right off the bat I have to throw your "memory" into question.

 

No DW rogue does.  This is not an "Assassin thing", this is a "rogue thing".  One universal rogue passive takes care of crit% needs.

 

As far as everything else you said... almost the entirety of what you described is applicable to *ALL* DW rogues.  As I keep iterating time and time again, these aren't inherent characteristics of only the Assassin and certainly not the only way people are downing dragons quickly.  The difference between everything you just listed and a vanilla DW rogue with zero specialization is Mark of Doom and Gaps.  And I will say it one more time, those passives aren't the only things making that video possible.

 

Gear is.

 

I'm sorry but gear is 80% of any character's DPS.  Don't believe me?  Same fight, T1 gear.  GOGOGOGO!

500 DPS is only with critical crafting.  Please get your facts straight before you make these accusations.

Sneak Attack is indeed a universal Rogue passive, but it's not like archers can flank reliably, and Assassins have even less of a need for Critical Chance than other DW Rogues.  I also think that you're really underestimating Mark of Death and Hidden Blades; other specializations don't have similar burst capabilities.

Finally, no one is saying that gear isn't very important, or that other specializations are weak, but to say that specialization is completely irrelevant isn't true.

[tisdfogg]

@Xarius478 Thanks for bringing in a little insight, much appreciated. The video makes a lot more sense now. While I agree with XFracture that you could achieve it with any spec (would take longer than 20 sec ofc), Assassin sure has it easier with Hidden Blades and Mark of Death. One could even optimize further by replacing Shadow Strike with Throwing Blades (currently SS is bugged and does not reduce CD which is a shame, it's such a cool skill).   

[Selea]

No DW rogue does.  This is not an "Assassin thing", this is a "rogue thing".  One universal rogue passive takes care of crit% needs.

 

No, it doesn't. I'm sorry but the rogue passives will never give you 100% crit chance, neither from the flank (the base crit chance is 10%, hardly 100% when doubled). You need gear for it.

Assassins can focus solely on crit damage and flanking bonuses, Tempest or Artificer cannot. Please show me where you have 100% crit chance from DW rogue passives alone (where is this phantomatic "passive that takes care of all crit% needs" is beyond me, seriously) because that's simply impossible and other specs but Assassins have no other way to obtain automatic critical hits (outside of Knockout Powder but that's situational).
 

As far as everything else you said... almost the entirety of what you described is applicable to *ALL* DW rogues.  As I keep iterating time and time again, these aren't inherent characteristics of only the Assassin and certainly not the only way people are downing dragons quickly.  

 

 

Sadly it isn't true, however. The best AP is from the assassin's spec both for the passives in it and both because Ambush (the best AP skill by far) works from out of stealth (and so it's clear how an Assassin's spec has a great advantage with it); the best crit chance, again, comes from Assassin since it is automatic outside of stealth and you have Flank Attack + renewed Stealth on kill that means always stealth (so always crits). No other spec can obtain the same outside of gear or situational skills (as Knockout Powder). To reach the same AP and crit chance in a reliable way of an Assassin you need gear with other specs, there's no way outside of it.

Only the assassin spec can focus solely on crit damage/flanking gear with no repercussion on setting up crit/AP settings and hence maximize damage output. Other specs cannot and this is a simple fact. You can skip crit chance if you rely on Knockout Powder, for example, but it will not be as reliable as Stealth + crit, both for the aforementioned AP and both for the situational nature of KP.

As for "downing dragons quickly" I have not seen any video around of a Tempest or Artificer being able to kill a Dragon in 20 seconds without a Focus ability. If you insist you can do the same easily with the other specs then let's see it.