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[LD Little Dragon]

(spoilers for Cassandra's quest)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Lord Seekers are evil?

Now that we know seekers are created by undergoing the rite of tranquillity and having it reversed (by being touched by a spirit of faith), is there any way to interpret the Lord Seekers are anything other than, for want of a better word, evil?

Not the seekers on the whole, since the rank and file have no idea how they are created, just the Lord Seeker and any others who know about how new seekers are created.

Is there any good reason for the Lord Seekers to have kept this secret for centuries? They even kept it secret from the Divine.

This ritual makes seekers immune to mind control (negating the worst fears about blood mages) and demonic possession.

 

Every tranquil mage could be cured, and no longer dangerous, from the sounds of it.

And yet, every Lord Seeker for centuries has kept this a closely guarded secret. Why? Are they afraid that their enemies might find out about how they make seekers and ... what? Take magic away from mages without destroying their emotions? Make more people immune to mind control? How exactly can the seekers justify keeping the ritual secret?

I can't interpret this in any other way than the Lord Seekers being a bunch of power-hungry, evil moustache-twirling villains. Given the 'grey morality' that's supposed to exist in Dragon age, I find this surprising.

The only not completely reprehensible reason I can think of for keeping the cure for tranquillity secret is that many mages would likely choose to undergo the rite, and subsequently lose their magic. This would mean fewer powerful battlemages in the non-Tevinter countries. Is it possible the Lord Seekers are afraid to lose the potential advantage that mages can give them in times of war?

Of course, teaching mages that magic is more a gift than a curse would help make more of them embrace their magic instead of opting for the ritual. So, that pretty much negates the 'we need more battlemages' line of reasoning. Meaning the Lord Seekers must just like having mages feared by the general population.

Am I missing something? Can anyone come up with a good reason, beyond wanting power, that the Lord Seekers would have for withholding the secret of creating seekers and curing tranquility from everyone, including the Divine?

[Birdy]

All for the greater good. Warden's can be "evil" for how they deal with stuff too.

[Precursor Meta]

Well Cassandra did say that reversing tranquility isn't as easy as it sounds. The effect could leave the user in an unpredictable and more dangerous state than before.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Am I missing something? Can anyone come up with a good reason, beyond wanting power, that the Lord Seekers would have for withholding the secret of creating seekers and curing tranquility from everyone, including the Divine?

I mean, I guess you can interpret it as well-intentioned extremism. Mages really are dangerous, even if they can't be possessed, but at the same time possession is the scariest thing the Templars have to point to. Thus, there is an argument to be made for scaring the crap out of everyone with a convenient, yet incomplete, truth.

 

Of course, I don't think I would sign off on this personally unless the process was either something that could not be done by just anybody (which is possible: it might be that they tried doing it on a mage and it doesn't work the same way) or comes at some sort of serious cost to the point of not being worth doing for every single mage. If neither of these is true, however, then it should be done for every single mage and the mage should be mostly unrestricted in his travels after completing both this modification and an education to try and mold him into an ideal citizen. (Keyword: mostly. While I mostly think the Circles are a good thing because they lessen the odds of an abomination forming in a remote area, letting mages go completely unwatched is bad for many reasons.)

[LD Little Dragon]

All for the greater good. Warden's can be "evil" for how they deal with stuff too.

Wardens have the excuse of 'anything to end the blight/ kill the darkspawn'.

 

But what greater good are the Seekers serving?  The greater good would be served by more people who can fight mages gone bad, and the Lord Seekers are actively preventing that.

 

Well Cassandra did say that reversing tranquility isn't as easy as it sounds. The effect could leave the user in an unpredictable and more dangerous state than before.

 

Which is a reason for not letting every templar or soldier try the ritual and for keeping a close eye on them.  Still don't see the problem with letting people know what the ritual involves, though.

 

 

 

(which is possible: it might be that they tried doing it on a mage and it doesn't work the same way) or comes at some sort of serious cost to the point of not being worth doing for every single mage.

That's possible.  There are still a lot of questions that aren't answered.  I'd rather not have the lines of good/bad so clear cut as this seems to be.

[The Baconer]

They are not evil, but they are (were) despicable. Fortunately, it seems karma caught up with them.

[Br3admax]

They can't tell what the ritual involves, because that would reveal they have a cure for Tranquility. Mages would want that, some of them anyway, disregarding that not a single cured mage has been anything more than a ticking time bomb afterwards. Mundanes cured through the right don't function the same as mages. 

[Kevs]

They can't tell what the ritual involves, because that would reveal they have a cure for Tranquility. Mages would want that, some of them anyway, disregarding that not a single cured mage has been anything more than a ticking time bomb afterwards. Mundanes cured through the right don't function the same as mages. 

Are there any other cured Tranquils besides Pharomond and Karl*? Because I don't think 2 cured Tranquils is proof enough that they go batshit crazy after being cured.

 

*Karl was Ander's friend/"friend" from DA2 who was briefly cured when Justice manifested himself. Before he reverted back to being Tranquil, he basically begged Hawke and Anders to end his misery.

[azarhal]

Are there any other cured Tranquils besides Pharomond and Karl*? Because I don't think 2 cured Tranquils is proof enough that they go batshit crazy after being cured.

 

*Karl was Ander's friend/"friend" from DA2 who was briefly cured when Justice manifested himself. Before he reverted back to being Tranquil, he basically begged Hawke and Anders to end his misery.

 

Karl wasn't cured, otherwise he wouldn't have reverted back to being Tranquil, unless the spirit needs to always be touching our mind to not revert back, which means all Seekers are have a co-pilot...

 

Pharamond is the only known "present" example, but from the way Cassandra is talking, the Seeker documented other cases and they all ended up the same: super emotionally unstable mages. She even have a banter with Solas on the subject and Solas suggest that it's because the mage were Tranquil for much longer.

[LightningPoodle]

It's a scare tactic. If the mages are seen as dangerous, the rest of the world will fear them and seek safety with those they believe will protect them. This gives them power over those people. Similar things happen in the real world.

 

An historical example I like to use is the Mayans and their sacrifices for the Sun God. They timed their sacrifices to coincide with eclipses. The general population didn't know any of this and so believed their God was real and that they had pleased him. This kept the powerful in control because the general population believed only they (the powerful) could interpret "his" will. 

[TK514]

I don't think we really have enough information to say, one way or another.  There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding Tranquility and what the Seeker rite entails.  Such as how non-Mages summon spirits, and specific types of spirits at that, and how the Seekers are made Tranquil without them knowing it.

 

At the very beginning of the Order, the reason for keeping such information secret would be because Mages were not trusted.  When the Seekers, and the 'vigil', were created, it was the height of post-Tevinter anti-Mage sentiment.  No one would want the Mages to have a way to undo what was the ultimate non-lethal answer to mages gone awry.  As time went on, the secrecy became codified and tradition did not change with time and circumstance.

 

There may also be security or safety reasons for keeping it a secret, such as the aforementioned possibility that every mage cured of Tranquility becomes emotionally unstable.  It is also possible that they became concerned that the response to such knowledge getting out would be exactly what happened, namely war between Templars and Mages.

[Reznore57]

Not everyone can go through the ritual , spirit of faith are quite rare.

Also it's possible some people would simply be damaged.

 

Then the power you gain , being able to set lyrium on fire?

And finally the Chantry has always been cautious when it comes to the fade , openly using a ritual involving spirits will make people think they can toy with the fade and gets perks.

There's also a chance of turning a spirit into a demon .

[Zana]

This is no different than the way Grey Wardens operate.  Blights are a global threat, just like possession is.  Yet the information on what entails to defeat one is kept strictly secret by an order.  Seekers simply take it half a step farther.  Whereas GWs are told during Joining what the membership entails (and kill you if you have second thoughts!) Seekers are simply never explained.  Imagine simply being given a Joining Chalice and told to drink.  You die, oh well, never need to explain anything.  You survive, well you got the miraculous powers, and you don't need to know what it did to you.

 

This is really very similar to the way medieval guilds operated.  Trade secrets were guarded extremely well.  Its a matter of control.  Everyone knows that Blights are bad.  But only select number of people know how to stop the Blight, therefore those people stay relevant.  And Lord Seekers simply guard their trade secret to maintain control of their Order, as well as making sure they maintain their status as overseers of Templars.  Medieval societies were not much for sharing, or greater good.  It was about preserving their own status or advancing it.  A large number of trade secrets were lost when the few who held them ended up dying without passing them to others.  Imagine what would happen if Cassandra killed the Lord Seeker and never got the book.  The entire rite would be lost, possibly forever.

 

So no, they aren't mustache twirling villains, they are simply people who do not want let go of their power, which is somewhat normal.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not everyone can go through the ritual , spirit of faith are quite rare.

Also it's possible some people would simply be damaged.

 

Then the power you gain , being able to set lyrium on fire?

And finally the Chantry has always been cautious when it comes to the fade , openly using a ritual involving spirits will make people think they can toy with the fade and gets perks.

There's also a chance of turning a spirit into a demon .

Does the Spirit of Faith linger inside them, or do they get modified by it? The wiki seems to be consistent with either, but the powers they gain are more what you'd expect from a possession. And most of the problems with subjecting every mage to this treatment seem to assume it's possession, which means that if it's not then this can be done pretty freely. (Assuming the mage's own magic doesn't interfere.)

[Br3admax]

They aren't possessed. It's more of an opened-mind kind of thing. Cole describes it as what happened to him, in reverse. Naturally faithful people just become a little more spirit-like. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They aren't possessed. It's more of an opened-mind kind of thing. Cole describes it as what happened to him, in reverse. Naturally faithful people just become a little more spirit-like. 

Then not everyone else can be rendered immune to possession by this expedient? Though those that can be are also less likely to abuse their powers...

 

... though again this assumes the rules aren't different for mages.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, I think it might be a little different in the long term Tranquil or with those with natural magical abilities in general. 

[eternalshiva]

Maybe the rite is different when used on non-magic users? Cassandra isn't a mage, so I would presume that the Tranquil Rite would affect her link to the fade differently than a full fledged mage. Plus they're made tranquil for a month or so while mages are severed from the fade for a very long period of time, plus they need to be touched by a specific type of spirit? There are no mage seekers because they come from Templars and  I don't think there are any mage Templars so tranquility HAS to affect them differently than on a mage.

 

From what I understand, they need to free themselves of emotions before the rite and then they are touched. Mage Tranquil people were stuffed solid full of emotions before they were made tranquil so maybe that's where the difference lays? The Harrowing is all about being seduced / tempted by the demons, who are named after emotions. Severing their link to the fade is "saving" them from emotional temptation that attracts the demons, correct? Reconnecting them to the fade. to emotions that are magically charged would probably overwhelm them.

 

What is magic in Thedas anyways? It's all related to emotions.

 

Templars have to do a year long vigil before they are initiated and Seekers are pulled from the Templar ranks and then go through another rite of vigilism and it's all very hush even when explained. We'd have to know more on what they do to Templars and Seekers during the Vigils and the Tranquility Rite they go through.

[Br3admax]

They're made Tranquil for a year, I believe. The Vigil itself is what summons the spirit. I also don't think the "connection" to the Fade is any different for a mage. I'm a proponent of them having lyrium in their blood and they're just more naturally attuned to it. 

[Tielis]

Okay, what I don't get is that Lucius is a Seeker, and he gets possessed by Envy.  This after Cass says to me that Seekers can't be possessed.

 

Sooo.... what exactly happened here?

[Br3admax]

Lucius wasn't possessed. He went off to Caer Oswin and started murdering Seekers while Envy replaced him. 

[Tielis]

Lucius wasn't possessed. He went off to Caer Oswin and started murdering Seekers while Envy replaced him. 

 

Ah, thank you.  When do we find this out, or was I just not paying attention at Therinfal since I was ogling Ser Barris instead?

[Gill Kaiser]

Ah, thank you.  When do we find this out, or was I just not paying attention at Therinfal since I was ogling Ser Barris instead?

 

Cassandra's personal quest.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They're made Tranquil for a year, I believe. The Vigil itself is what summons the spirit. I also don't think the "connection" to the Fade is any different for a mage. I'm a proponent of them having lyrium in their blood and they're just more naturally attuned to it. 

Wait a minute, Cassandra was Tranquil for a year? How did she not notice?

[Gill Kaiser]

Wait a minute, Cassandra was Tranquil for a year? How did she not notice?

 

She was in a meditative state for a year, in seclusion. She knew that going in. She just didn't know that she would also be made Tranquil at the same time.

 

So from her perspective, she zoned out through prayer and meditation and managed to avoid going insane, and then once she emerged from her isolation she felt renewed and gained the powers of a Seeker.