156 réponses à ce sujet

[BuddyL0ve]

"Race" and "culture" are not actually synonyms.

Here is effectively is. There is no "elvish" culture anymore. It was eradicated hundreds of years ago. All that remains are fragments and guesswork built on those fragments. There aren't a variety of elven nations that used to exist (as far as have been revealed). Elves were part of the stereotypical Racial Monoculture in fantasy. Humans can be vastly different if they are from Rivane, Tevinter, Ferelden, etc, but elves are always just elves. Just like Qunari are all just Qunari, and dwarves are just dwarves. Yes, even surface dwarves, who either pine for the Stone, or are short, stocky humans.

Take away that monoculture, and anything distinctive about elves ceases to exist. Briala is a great example. She plays the whole Pro-Elf card up, but for distinctly Orlesian reasons: personal power and getting back at a lover who jilted her. She is no different than any other human playing the Great Game, and her indifference to Celene's actions with regards to her own alienage proves that.

Edit: Sera is another great example of it. She isn't an elf. She is a Fereldan. She acts and talks exactly like any typical lower-class Fereldan city rat does. If you closed your eyes on meeting Sera, you would think she was human... because, effectively, for all intents and purposes that matter, she is.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Here is effectively is. There is no "elvish" culture anymore. It was eradicated hundreds of years ago.

What you've done is describe how the ancient elven culture has been eradicated while the elves themselves remain. You've just wonderfully demonstrated the fact that "race" and "culture" are not synonyms.
 

Take away that monoculture, and anything distinctive about elves ceases to exist.

Again you must be speaking culturally since there's quite a bit that's racially distinctive about elves.

And while it is true that there is no monolithic elven culture neither is there a single human, dwarven or qunari culture. So... what exactly is the point? Just that the various human cultures are generally dominant?

[BuddyL0ve]

neither is there a single human, dwarven or qunari culture.

There is a single dwarven and Qunari culture, and aside from the Qunari, dwarves are another dying race.

All in all what it boils down to is fantasy races not actually being "races". Elves are more agile humans. Dwarves are stockier, more hardy humans. Qunari are giant, strong humans. Since the human-centric world of Thedas has had so much time and attention spent on fleshing out the various human nations (to it's complete benefit, IMO), they couldn't also flesh out entire diverse nations of Dwarves, with differing cultures, social mores and history. Or Qunari, Or Elves. Elves see "elf" as their race and their culture, with Sera and Briala being notable exceptions. Dwarves see "dwarf" as their culture, with Varric being a notable exception. In the case of elves though, that culture they cling to is based on misinformation, guesswork, or the equivalent of playing Telephone, where it's a piecemeal story handed down from elder to elder, changing more and more each telling.

So they are all act like humans, and are exactly like the humans of the area in which they inhabit (surfacer dwarves and nearly all elves), being completely indistinguishable from any other human in their behavior. Elven culture as a distinct thing that separated them from humans died long ago. Dwarven culture probably has, at best, another few hundred years before the seemingly bottomless Darkspawn overwhelms the last two Thaigs, then their culture will be dead.

Qunari are alien enough (and kept mysterious enough) they could go any direction with them.

DA races aren't like Mass Effect races, where you can have distinctly non-humanoid races and cultures. It's Fallout: New Thedas, a post-apocalypse setting after the fall of the Elven Empire, where it's the traditional fantasy races placed in a crapsack post-apocalypse world, full of either primitive, superstitious Middle Age barely-not-barbarians (Fereldan, probably Free Marches), decayed empires (Tevinter), or decadent but stagnant empires (Orlai). 

[Nathair Nimheil]

There is a single dwarven and Qunari culture

Not in the sense that all dwarves or all qunari are participants in the dominant culture, no.
 

All in all what it boils down to is fantasy races not actually being "races". Elves are more agile humans. Dwarves are stockier, more hardy humans. Qunari are giant, strong humans.

OK, so you just don't understand what the word "race" means. That explains the problem.

[BuddyL0ve]

Not in the sense that all dwarves or all qunari are participants in the dominant culture, no.
 
OK, so you just don't understand what the word "race" means. That explains the problem.

 

In terms of a fantasy setting, it means non-human sentient beings. It doesn't mean the same thing as African-American, Japanese, Mayan, or the like. Beings with distinct, physical characteristics that set them apart from humanity beyond "pointy ears" or "short". I think the issue here is you are refering to "race" in terms like above (American Indian, etc) whereas I'm referring to them like Mass Effect races. Race as distinct species, not race as cultural subset of current species.

At one point in Thedas's history, elves were exactly that: a non-human species. They were immortal, which inherently would give a non-human perspective and culture. Tolkien elves, for instance. No need to rush around like your pants are on fire when you can take 50-100 years to master painting, magic, archery, etc.

Now though there is nothing to differentiate elves from humans. Elves act just like humans, think just like humans, are raised in the same cultures as humans, and have the same cultural biases and beliefs as humans. There is nothing about elves, physically or culturally, that separates them from humans other the discriminatory bias of other humans based on their looks, and given another few generations, they will be gone too.

[theluc76]

Racism wont be promoted in games as its a touchy subject almost as romances scenes in the first dragon age was. dont forget that the BioWare division of EA tries to redeem itself.

[synnerman]

My current playthrough is an elf... I kind of hate the Dalish at this point. Solas is kind of persuasive. I haven't gotten to the other stuff.

[Veloric Wu]

I have yet to see a moral choice game where the choices aren't between saint and douchebag.

 

How do you know? Saint could be hypocrite and douchebag could be Sera, so not so black and white, innit? 

[Jazzpha]

With regards to the Elvhen in general, I feel like BW painted themselves into an absurdly massive corner when they established in the lore that elves are always genetically recessive in mixed-species mating. Which means that unless they only marry among other elves, eventually they will biologically cease to exist as a species altogether, forever.

 

Which becomes hard to separate from apparent feelings of cultural supremacy. We aren't talking about preserving a culture that can nevertheless fluidly accept new adherents by virtue of strict marriage control, we're talking about the concrete survival of a species. Problem is, that attitude is dangerously easy for a lot of people to conflate with species-motivated racism. I've always assumed a fair number of Dalish don't inherently hate humanity, they just want to have elven kids.

[Wolfen09]

Im prejudiced against racist people....  no, all joking aside... im pretty sure im racist enough in real life to not have to carry it into a fantasy world.

[PsyQUEpedia]

Bioware confuses the hell out of me sometimes.

Apparently it's okay to commit genocide, sell people into slavery, and murder children, but god forbid you say something mean.

You got it 

[skotie]

With regards to the Elvhen in general, I feel like BW painted themselves into an absurdly massive corner when they established in the lore that elves are always genetically recessive in mixed-species mating. Which means that unless they only marry among other elves, eventually they will biologically cease to exist as a species altogether, forever.

 

Which becomes hard to separate from apparent feelings of cultural supremacy. We aren't talking about preserving a culture that can nevertheless fluidly accept new adherents by virtue of strict marriage control, we're talking about the concrete survival of a species. Problem is, that attitude is dangerously easy for a lot of people to conflate with species-motivated racism. I've always assumed a fair number of Dalish don't inherently hate humanity, they just want to have elven kids.

Didn't DA2 have a side quest that involved a relationship between a human and an elf and a child born from it? I could have sworn the child had evlan features.

[Chari]

The same reason a human can't be racist against elves and qunari and dwarf against everyone

[PsyQUEpedia]

In light of the revelations of Inquisition, it seems like the Dalish are a similar situation to modern American Indians suddenly rebelling and deciding to go live on the prairie according to the Old Ways.... but the only historical records they have of the Old Ways are 40's and 50's Westerns.

Due to what has happened to them as a race, "elves" effectively no longer exist. They are humans, only thinner and with pointed ears. They live the same length of time, can breed with humans with no issue (which produces human children), eat all the same foods, have no exceptional racial gifts to set them apart from humans.

As much as Sera bugs me overall, I kinda have to agree with her that elves need to build a bridge and get over it. Their race is dead man walkin'.

It doesn't generally work in real life with disenfranchised minorities "to just build a bridge" even in an "equal society" so it would be even harder to "build a bridge" in a racist gameworld where discrimination is a blatant social construct. Thedas has the equivalent of Jim Crow and slavery going on at the same d@*n time!!! If anybody tells my elf inquisitor to get over it he or she is getting slapped point blank!!! Sera and her are cool but they bump heads on that topic.

[skotie]

It doesn't generally work in real life with disenfranchised minorities "to just build a bridge" even in an "equal society" so it would be even harder to "build a bridge" in a racist gameworld where discrimination is a blatant social construct. Thedas has the equivalent of Jim Crow and slavery going on at the same d@*n time!!! If anybody tells my elf inquisitor to get over it he or she is getting slapped point blank!!! Sera and her are cool but they bump heads on that topic.

Honestly if the rest of the world would have left them in peace to worship whatever crazy gods they wanted in the Dales the elves would likely be fine.

 

No one wants to say one word about the chantry though and thier need to spread the chant of light everywhere, even where no one wants it!

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

It doesn't generally work in real life with disenfranchised minorities "to just build a bridge" even in an "equal society" so it would be even harder to "build a bridge" in a racist gameworld where discrimination is a blatant social construct. Thedas has the equivalent of Jim Crow and slavery going on at the same d@*n time!!! If anybody tells my elf inquisitor to get over it he or she is getting slapped point blank!!! Sera and her are cool but they bump heads on that topic.

The irony of your statement is that the Andrastan-derived kingdoms do not allow slavery, while the ancient Elven Empire was built upon slavery and continued its practice throughout their fall.

[PsyQUEpedia]

I hope they diversify the two species that have less lore: Qunari and Dwarves. They let us know that culturally they are not all the same. Kossith that exist without the Qun as other nations that maybe pushed those that follow the Qun off of their continent for example. Maybe they can introduce other Dwarven Thaigs with distinctly different cultures or language. Underground war between Kal Sharok and Orzammar perhaps? The next game can take place above ground, but also have a world map below ground to flesh out the Dwarves.

[TEWR]

I literally can't even right now

 

Don't worry, the forums will help you even.

[RenAdaar]

I have never played as a racist dalish. It just seems like it will get you no where. Can't beat racism with racism just causes more racism.

[PsyQUEpedia]

The irony of your statement is that the Andrastan-derived kingdoms do not allow slavery, while the ancient Elven Empire was built upon slavery and continued its practice throughout their fall.

 

My poor eyes I haven't been to that part of the game yet lol The risk of entering this part of the forums smh.... Well Ancient Africa had slavery does that mean it wasn't wrong for it to be practiced hundreds of years later against people with ancestors from the same continent?

 

Tevinter is an Andrastian nation just a different form and they allow slavery. There was just a religious schism happens with a lot of religions. However, the southern nations still allow legal discrimination and an inability to climb the social ladder. The elves that usually have better lives are servants to humans. It's figuratively an economic slavery because they can not get out of that lifestyle. It's a never-ending cycle. Elf mages in the Circle, Wardens, and Dalish are the exception. The regular everyday elf is stomped on. There is no way to build a bridge without massive social change and policies to stop this legal discrimination, otherwise they would just be told to stay on the other side of "the brdge"  in their alienage. lol

[uncledolan]

My favorite line in origins is when you play a dalish elf you can choose to respond to a certain conversation with "what do you mean, you people?"

[skotie]

My favorite line in origins is when you play a dalish elf you can choose to respond to a certain conversation with "what do you mean, you people?"

I think my favorite insult to an elf is still when someone mistakes you for a servant. Even your quartermaster in DAI does it, because it's just naturally so accepted that since your an elf that's all you could be? XD

[Imryll]

I don't think the extra races should have been in the first place. It was originally a human only game, and should have stayed that way. I don't think the entire context lends itself to it, like the Warden did. This isn't quite the personalized/specific story that Hawke is, but it's more like that than DAO. 

 

imho, of course.

That's not my perception at all, although I might feel differently if I'd chosen to play a dwarf or qunari rather than an elf. Elven lore is so central to the game--and the question of question of whether a non-believer might have been chosen by the Maker so interesting--that I think I'd find the game relatively dull if I played a human (and only partly because I couldn't romance Solas)!

[The Lovlend]

I understand the racism in origins. You were a young hunter in a human hating society.

In inquisition you are a matured elf (dem voice options) in a pro human clan.

On the subject of Dalish getting everything wrong, I just say that ignorance is bliss. They seem to be happy with how they live, and time can ruin lots of things. I think it's less of "they got everything wrong" and more of "their past doesn't want to die, so we see the change that occurred". The only reason people get mad at them for getting everything wrong is because you have a living comparison. What drove it home is the pride they have for thier way of life.

I don't get why people feel dislike for the dalish for the reveal when they should be pitying them. I mean, if you found out the thing you feel proud of is a slavery brand, you might feel like ****. Then people come along and say that it's your fault.

Lot to ponder.