156 réponses à ce sujet

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I understand the racism in origins. You were a young hunter in a human hating society.

In inquisition you are a matured elf (dem voice options) in a pro human clan.

On the subject of Dalish getting everything wrong, I just say that ignorance is bliss. They seem to be happy with how they live, and time can ruin lots of things. I think it's less of "they got everything wrong" and more of "their past doesn't want to die, so we see the change that occurred". The only reason people get mad at them for getting everything wrong is because you have a living comparison. What drove it home is the pride they have for thier way of life.

I don't get why people feel dislike for the dalish for the reveal when they should be pitying them. I mean, if you found out the thing you feel proud of is a slavery brand, you might feel like ****. Then people come along and say that it's your fault.

Lot to ponder.

I respectfully disagree.

 

It's that the Dalish not are anywhere near as kindly or benevolent as you make them out to be. 

 

The Dalish raise each new generation to hate humankind, to blame them (falsely) for their own downfall.  They blame others for the circumstances of their failures, whitewashing the causes of their wars, and adopting a cloak of (false) martyrdom that deludes each new generation into thinking that others took their land, others took their knowledge, others took their self-respect.  It's a blame game.  They claim (despite the meta-history of codices) that the humans declared war upon peace-loving elves and destroyed their great civilization.  They ignore the historical records and likelihoods that the elves actually invaded human lands first, that they started the wars that led to destruction of the Dalish kingdom.

 

And then they teach each of those self-same generations of new elves that they are better than everyone else, by virtue of their cultural inheritance, by virtue of the racial stock they come from, by virtue of exclusion of those who are different and do not embrace their ways.  They are taught to pity elves that do not follow their traditions and speak their language.  They are taught that elves that do not follow the Dalish path are "Flat-Ears", lesser elves that have somehow fallen from a higher state of being.  They exalt a past history that is primarily self-aggrandizing myth and delusion. 

 

The Dalish also have an established history of violent hostility towards other races, of preying on the harvests of others, roaming in their aravels from place to place and slaying the unfortunate helpless people that cross their path, moving on before any tangible repercussions can be mustered.  When they fight, they do not face cohorts of warriors in armor, but instead prey on the unarmed, or upon those lesser in numbers, maybe the lone occasional Templar knight come to investigate apostasy.  They take gleeful pride in their attacks on other races, distancing themselves from and dehumanizing the "Shemlen".

 

The disturbing truths of DAI's climax, that the Ancient Elves were despotic god-kings, who carved out a bloody slave-empire that was the MODEL which inspired the later human Tevinter Empire, that the facial markings of the Dalish were in fact slave-brands- signs of the lowest caste within their revered culture, make it so that it is nigh-impossible to feel anything but contempt and schadenfreude for the Dalish.  For a people who have despised everyone else, looked down on everyone else, and blamed everyone else for the ills of the world, there is no pity for the Dalish. 

 

If indeed there were such a glimmer of pity, it would be only to put them out of their misery and erase them from the face of Thedas such that there would never again be such a false revival of their culture.

[BuddyL0ve]

It doesn't generally work in real life with disenfranchised minorities "to just build a bridge" even in an "equal society" so it would be even harder to "build a bridge" in a racist gameworld where discrimination is a blatant social construct. Thedas has the equivalent of Jim Crow and slavery going on at the same d@*n time!!! If anybody tells my elf inquisitor to get over it he or she is getting slapped point blank!!! Sera and her are cool but they bump heads on that topic.

Thing is, elves aren't a disfranchised minority. They are a dying species, completely subsumed by another, more efficient (breeding-wise) species. It's less Jim Crow, and more the dying out of Cro Magnon Man to ****** Sapiens.

[Sardoni]

Because you aren't a dark elf.

[The Lovlend]

I respectfully disagree. It's that the Dalish not are anywhere near as kindly or benevolent as you make them out to be.  The Dalish raise each new generation to hate humankind, to blame them (falsely) for their own downfall.  They blame others for the circumstances of their failures, whitewashing the causes of their wars, and adopting a cloak of (false) martyrdom that deludes each new generation into thinking that others took their land, others took their knowledge, others took their self-respect.  It's a blame game.  They claim (despite the meta-history of codices) that the humans declared war upon peace-loving elves and destroyed their great civilization.  They ignore the historical records and likelihoods that the elves actually invaded human lands first, that they started the wars that led to destruction of the Dalish kingdom. And then they teach each of those self-same generations of new elves that they are better than everyone Else, by virtue of their cultural inheritance, by virtue of the racial stock they come from, by virtue of exclusion of those who are different and do not embrace their ways.  They are taught to pity elves that do not follow their traditions and speak their language.  They are taught that elves that do not follow the Dalish path are "Flat-Ears", lesser elves that have somehow fallen from a higher state of being.  They exalt a past history that is primarily self-aggrandizing myth and delusion.  The Dalish also have an established history of violent hostility towards other races, of preying on the harvests of others, roaming in their aravels from place to place and slaying the unfortunate helpless people that cross their path, moving on before any tangible repercussions can be mustered.  When they fight, they do not face cohorts of warriors in armor, but instead prey on the unarmed, or upon those lesser in numbers, maybe the lone occasional Templar knight come to investigate apostasy.  They take gleeful pride in their attacks on other races, distancing themselves from and dehumanizing the "Shemlen". The disturbing truths of DAI's climax, that the Ancient Elves were despotic god-kings, who carved out a bloody slave-empire that was the MODEL which inspired the later human Tevinter Empire, that the facial markings of the Dalish were in fact slave-brands- signs of the lowest caste within their revered culture, make it so that it is nigh-impossible to feel anything but contempt and schadenfreude for the Dalish.  For a people who have despised everyone else, looked down on everyone else, and blamed everyone else for the ills of the world, there is no pity for the Dalish.  If indeed there were such a glimmer of pity, it would be only to put them out of their misery and erase them from the face of Thedas such that there would never again be such a false revival of their culture.

Wow. Ok.

I guess I'm too attached to my first dalish warden then. I went for too much of a "from the inside" perspective.

My opinion probably doesn't even count because of my race. Those last two sentences hurt, bro.

[Abraham_uk]

I haven't played Inquisition (which is why I've purposely ignored many of the posts for spoiler reasons).

 

I've seen the Dalish in both Origins and Dragon Age 2.

As far as I'm concerned if someone enters your home without your consent you have a right to appropriate force.

 

Considering that the "Shemlin" are often very hostile towards the Dalish, the assumption has to be made that all Shems want you dead. There have been so many instances of Templars kidnapping the mages, human bandits outright trying to exterminate the elves. This is a mentality that is constantly shoved in their faces. Then you take into account that the "Domesticated Elves" are shoved into Alienates. Nope sorry. Elves have every right to be hostile back. Until the humans start changing their attitudes why should the elves change theirs? What evidence have humans shown that they are worthy of respect?

 

You're probably thinking "Abraham_uk that is an extreme position". I tell you what I think is an extreme position. In our world the ultimatum that the Native American Indians are either assimilated into the culture of the invading peoples, or face extermination. The same can be said of native populations across many nations. The Dalish are a group of people desperately trying to cling onto not only their traditions, not only their independence but also their lives. Elves face that ultimatum, join the Borg collective or die. Resistance is futile!

 

 

Isn't it interesting that whenever the Qunari shove their values and beliefs down everyone's throats its time to go to war, but when the humans do the same with their Chantry, it's okay? I think the Elves would be so much better if they went to Orzammar. The Dwarves aren't interested in converting people nor are they interested in exterminating people. They're too busy trying to exterminate the Darkspawn.

[The Lovlend]

I haven't played Inquisition (which is why I've purposely ignored many of the posts for spoiler reasons). I've seen the Dalish in both Origins and Dragon Age 2.As far as I'm concerned if someone enters your home without your consent you have a right to appropriate force. Considering that the "Shemlin" are often very hostile towards the Dalish, the assumption has to be made that all Shems want you dead. There have been so many instances of Templars kidnapping the mages, human bandits outright trying to exterminate the elves. This is a mentality that is constantly shoved in their faces. Then you take into account that the "Domesticated Elves" are shoved into Alienates. Nope sorry. Elves have every right to be hostile back. Until the humans start changing their attitudes why should the elves change theirs? What evidence have humans shown that they are worthy of respect? You're probably thinking "Abraham_uk that is an extreme position". I tell you what I think is an extreme position. In our world the ultimatum that the Native American Indians are either assimilated into the culture of the invading peoples, or face extermination. The same can be said of native populations across many nations. The Dalish are a group of people desperately trying to cling onto not only their traditions, not only their independence but also their lives. Elves face that ultimatum, join the Borg collective or die. Resistance is futile! Isn't it interesting that whenever the Qunari shove their values and beliefs down everyone's throats its time to go to war, but when the humans do the same with their Chantry, it's okay. I think the Elves would be so much better if they went to Orzammar. The Dwarves aren't interested in converting people nor are they interested in exterminating people. They're too busy trying to exterminate the Darkspawn.

Thank you so much. This is what I would have said if I had more balls.

I was born on a kickapoo reserve in texas, and I can't stand when people belittle the fantasy equivalent of my culture and constantly bash it for clinging to whatever they have left. Whatever happened before, they are just an extreme minority who feel alittle hostile towards the majority for the little genocide incident awhile back.

If indeed there were such a glimmer of pity, it would be only to put them out of their misery and erase them from the face of Thedas such that there would never again be such a false revival of their culture.

Life gos on. Sure, the dalish had a more rocky past than my people, but to want to "erase" them? What kind of racist a**hole are you?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I'm going to address this point by point.  My posts in bolded color.

I haven't played Inquisition (which is why I've purposely ignored many of the posts for spoiler reasons).

 

I've seen the Dalish in both Origins and Dragon Age 2.

As far as I'm concerned if someone enters your home without your consent you have a right to appropriate force.

 

Your home?  Oh, do you mean where you put up camp on SOMEONE ELSE'S Farmlands, Grazing Lands, Timberline, and/or Settlements?  You know, the lands that they've been working on and settled on, developing, and protecting, while you roamed around like a carrion eater and then attacked anyone unfortunate enough to cross your path?  Yea, that home of YOURS? Yes, in fact let's talk about appropriate force while we're at it.  Shall we discuss the Dalish perchant for ambush, attacking unarmed travelers, and killing anyone not an elf?

 

Considering that the "Shemlin" are often very hostile towards the Dalish, the assumption has to be made that all Shems want you dead.

 

And yet the reality in-setting canon is that the "Shemlen" allow the Dalish to travel so long as they do not overstay their welcome or cause trouble.  If they really wanted the Dalish dead, they would have, could have, and possibly should have done the job long ago.  In the setting, most "Shemlen" turn a blind eye to the Dalish encampments, even the Templars do not typically go seeking out the Dalish, preferring that they just move on.

 

There have been so many instances of Templars kidnapping the mages, human bandits outright trying to exterminate the elves. This is a mentality that is constantly shoved in their faces. Then you take into account that the "Domesticated Elves" are shoved into Alienates.

 

Would these be the same domesticated elves that are spit on, called flat-ears, and taught to hate themselves by the Dalish unless they embrace the Dalish way of life?  Hrmmm?

 

Nope sorry. Elves have every right to be hostile back. Until the humans start changing their attitudes why should the elves change theirs? What evidence have humans shown that they are worthy of respect?

 

Hey, you want to go to war?  Be my guest.  It's worked out wonderfully for the Dalish Elves in the past.  Remember that war that the Dalish started, the one that caused an Exalted March to be declared against them?  Remember that Elves started the wars, humans just finished them.  And the only evidence that needs to be pointed out is the fact that the humans still tolerate the existence of Dalish elves and chose not to eradicate them.  That alone is deserving of respect, even if inspired by fear of a greater power.

 

You're probably thinking "Abraham_uk that is an extreme position". I tell you what I think is an extreme position. In our world the ultimatum that the Native American Indians are either assimilated into the culture of the invading peoples, or face extermination. The same can be said of native populations across many nations. The Dalish are a group of people desperately trying to cling onto not only their traditions, not only their independence but also their lives. Elves face that ultimatum, join the Borg collective or die. Resistance is futile!

 

Except this isn't the real world.  This is fantasy, and fictional high fantasy at that.  There is a confirmed narrative, and there is confirmed truth in narrative.  The Ancient Elves done #$%ed up.  The Dalish Elves of the past started a war they could not win.  The codices of the games, of the books, of the Last Court web material all confirm a narrative that states the Dalish are not a happy, harmless, group of innocents that have been oppressed and victimized.  They have blood on their hands just as much if not more so than the humans of Thedas.  Furthermore their traditions have been exposed as lies and self-delusions.  This isn't nearly a case of being forced to join the Collective either.  The Elves of many other nations do just fine, like Sera says, being their own thing, doing their own thing, and there's going to be rich elves and poor elves, powerful elves and weak elves, and being Dalish doesn't have a lickspittle of difference to make with any of them.

 

Isn't it interesting that whenever the Qunari shove their values and beliefs down everyone's throats its time to go to war, but when the humans do the same with their Chantry, it's okay.

 

Funny that, I seem to recall that many of the Exalted Marches of the Chantry have been between human nations.  Most notable being what, four Exalted Marches between the Southern Andrastan Chantry and the Magisters of Tevinter?  Wow, yea yep-yep.  Humans got a whole hard-on for the nonhumans and get along just fine amongst themselves and it's all good.  Bullpuckey is my answer.  You're selectively seeing only what you want to see.  Humans are passionate and violent about their beliefs, regardless of whether they are facing Qunari, Elves, or Darkspawn.  

 

I think the Elves would be so much better if they went to Orzammar. The Dwarves aren't interested in converting people nor are they interested in exterminating people. They're too busy trying to exterminate the Darkspawn.

 

LOL!  Would these be the same dwarves that seal their doors and kill anyone that tries to enter their tunnels?  The same dwarves that went through a civil war because they couldn't admit to themselves that their lifesblood depends on trade with the humans and surface exiles?  The same dwarves that determine profit as their primary motivating factor, a-la the Carta and Merchant's Guild?  The same dwarves that canonized a brutal madwoman responsible for the deaths of hundreds of her own followers as a paragon?  Yeah... knock on Orzammar's doors and see how far that gets you, especially with the Dalish chip of superiority on your shoulders!

[Abraham_uk]

Fair dooze. You raise some fair points there.

 

I'll be honest. I haven't read much of the codexes.

In both Origins and Dragon Age 2, I talked to the Dalish Elves and pretty much nodded my head thinking, damn those Elves have it rough.

[skotie]

Thank you so much. This is what I would have said if I had more balls.

I was born on a kickapoo reserve in texas, and I can't stand when people belittle the fantasy equivalent of my culture and constantly bash it for clinging to whatever they have left. Whatever happened before, they are just an extreme minority who feel alittle hostile towards the majority for the little genocide incident awhile back.

Life gos on. Sure, the dalish had a more rocky past than my people, but to want to "erase" them? What kind of racist a**hole are you?

I love how those who have something agianst the dalish never veiw them fairly. Like the humans are prefect saints or something. There's plenty to back up that the dalish are not innocent  by any means but the human reactions to them have mostly been over the top.

 

Case point in DAI there's a quest later on I believe you get after talking to the dalish clan or the elves in the emerald graves/the exalted plains. It opens a new area to explore (after a war table mission) and you learn of a love affair between a dalish elf and a chantry sister that happened during the time of the dales. The elves of the dales thought the man who fell in love with the sister was betraying his people and his culture and they end up killing the sister because of it. The elf who fell in love with her took his own life if I remember correctly. This is supposed to have been evidence of what triggered the exalted march upon the dales. The quest lets you turn it into the dalish or the chantry.

 

I bring this up because yes the elves were wrong and murdered one chantry sister, but what happened to those elves? Thier entire nation was crushed by a holy crusade agianst the heathens over one murder count them one! Sorry but how anyone can defend that is beyond me.

 

Lets pick on the dalish some more though shall we, I mean there are a few of them left still kicking around.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Thank you so much. This is what I would have said if I had more balls.

I was born on a kickapoo reserve in texas, and I can't stand when people belittle the fantasy equivalent of my culture and constantly bash it for clinging to whatever they have left. Whatever happened before, they are just an extreme minority who feel alittle hostile towards the majority for the little genocide incident awhile back.

Life gos on. Sure, the dalish had a more rocky past than my people, but to want to "erase" them? What kind of racist a**hole are you?

And I'm first generation Chinese-American, my homeland was invaded multiple times over centuries by Westerners bearing sword, fire, and cross.  We're still the bad guys in movies.  (When's the last time American Indians were bad guys in Hollywood?  The 50's?)  Hell, we weren't even allowed to be citizens of the US til post-war 1947 due to the 14th Amendment (Chinese Exclusion Act) which is STILL on the US Constitution today, just the language was altered.  We're the only ethnicity ever cut out of inalienable human rights by a Constitutional Amendment...  Didn't know that, did you?  Yeah, thought not.  Things are tough all around.  And you're bleeding over the inequities of real-life history and fiction, which is not a healthy coping mechanism I might add.

 

I'm addressing the truth in narrative that is the canon material of the world of Thedas.  I honestly find the Dalish to be the clinging remnants of a reprehensible and decadent fallen-civilization of blood sacrifice and slavery.  I can tell you right off the bat that I've never viewed the American Native Tribes to even remotely resemble the characteristics or historical details of such an EVIL empire.  Rather I have every bit of empathy for the history of invasion and subjugation by Western Power, knowing and understanding the history of my own people in comparison with yours.  If you are seeing similarities to the Ancient Elves and the Dalish, I really don't know what to say.  You obviously have more self-hate issues than I do.  I feel for you, I do, but this is not the perspective to win people over to another POV.  And just adding... I'm not using my real life ethnicity to excuse or justify fan-love or fan-hate for a fictional faction or group of people. 

 

Take a step back, breath, and realize that you're projecting things onto others that literally don't exist.

[Abraham_uk]

I don't think anyone is innocent in conflicts.

I generally pick sides with the native population since they were there first and their homes were invaded.

That does not excuse the wrong doing by the native people. However I doubt I'd be so friendly and understanding if my home was invaded.

Not all elves are bad. Not all humans are bad. However when all you've seen is the worst of humanity, then there is zero room for tolerance.

 

 

There is this amazing thing called evidence. 

If 1 billion people of Race X are nice but 5 of them are mass murderers who slaughtered your family. Your only experience with Race X are the 5 horrible people then your opinion that all of Race X is horrible is understandable. Will I give Race X a chance to prove me wrong? I don't know because I've never been the butt of that kind of abuse.

 

How do you convince the victim here that not all of Race X are nasty people?

Why should they believe you when you of Race X tell them about the true nature?

What evidence has been presented that Race X is not like that?

 

Most importantly why did you let those five members of Race X slaughter my family?

If you're the nice majority, why did you let that evil happen. Perhaps you're not better. Perhaps all of Race X doesn't care about Race M's plight.

Maybe Race M wouldn't be on the verge of extinction if it weren't for Race X. Come on! I dare you to prove me wrong! My family is dead!

 

 

[Takes a deep breath]. I got really carried away there. But you see my point. I'm not trying to justify murder. I'm trying to see this from the victim's point of view. Maybe that one guy from Race M will never see Race X in a balanced and reasonable way. Maybe to that one guy Race X is not capable of love and compassion. That belief might never be erased. But we still have to try to reason. We still have to give negotiation a chance. Maybe that one guy from Race M is more open to reason that we've given them credit for...

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I love how those who have something agianst the dalish never veiw them fairly. Like the humans are prefect saints or something. There's plenty to back up that the dalish are not innocent  by any means but the human reactions to them have mostly been over the top.

 

Case point in DAI there's a quest later on I believe you get after talking to the dalish clan or the elves in the emerald graves/the exalted plains. It opens a new area to explore (after a war table mission) and you learn of a love affair between a dalish elf and a chantry sister that happened during the time of the dales. The elves of the dales thought the man who fell in love with the sister was betraying his people and his culture and they end up killing the sister because of it. The elf who fell in love with her took his own life if I remember correctly. This is supposed to have been evidence of what triggered the exalted march upon the dales. The quest lets you turn it into the dalish or the chantry.

 

I bring this up because yes the elves were wrong and murdered one chantry sister, but what happened to those elves? Thier entire nation was crushed by a holy crusade agianst the heathens over one murder count them one! Sorry but how anyone can defend that is beyond me.

 

Lets pick on the dalish some more though shall we, I mean there are a few of them left still kicking around.

It's an interesting Codex, but it's one against several others across the wide range of Dragon Age materials that point to an actual invasion by the Dalish Elves into human lands.  I look at it as a tragic parable or story of individuals that rose above their racial enmity.  But it's not the sole story of the Exalted March on the Dales or how it happened.

[skotie]

It's an interesting Codex, but it's one against several others across the wide range of Dragon Age materials that point to an actual invasion by the Dalish Elves into human lands.  I look at it as a tragic parable or story of individuals that rose above their racial enmity.  But it's not the sole story of the Exalted March or how it happened.

Yeah any time I talk to anyone from the chantry they give me pretty much the same BS as well. History is written by the victors.

[Abraham_uk]

It's an interesting Codex, but it's one against several others across the wide range of Dragon Age materials that point to an actual invasion by the Dalish Elves into human lands.  I look at it as a tragic parable or story of individuals that rose above their racial enmity.  But it's not the sole story of the Exalted March on the Dales or how it happened.

 

 

Nice Inquisitor by the way. That must have taken you ages. Mine tend to look strange.

 

 

Forgive me if I'm still being ignorant here. I am not sure that declaring war automatically puts you in the wrong. In the World War 2 example Britain declared war against The Nazi's. Before you know it there is an entire coalition of nations determined to make sure that the Nazi's didn't take over the world.

 

The Humans in the Exalted Marches were trying to take over Thedas if I'm not mistaken. They were destroying the Elves homes. Doesn't that make that declaration of war justified?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I don't think anyone is innocent in conflicts... *snip*

 

[Takes a deep breath]. I got really carried away there. But you see my point. I'm not trying to justify murder. I'm trying to see this from the victim's point of view. Maybe that one guy from Race M will never see Race X in a balanced and reasonable way. Maybe to that one guy Race X is not capable of love and compassion. That belief might never be erased. But we still have to try to reason. We still have to give negotiation a chance. Maybe that one guy from Race M is more open to reason that we've given them credit for...

I don't think there's anything wrong with open perspective.  I hope it's somewhat obvious that my first post in this thread was written in somewhat sardonic wit in response to the OP. 

 

I admit that I do have a marked dislike for the fictional "sainthood" that the Dalish adopt, and I honestly prefer the Dalish to be a beaten-down race, purely for story-driven reasons, a reaction inspired mostly by the cliche of "Immortal, Enlightened, Impossibly Perfect Elves" that exist in most post-Tolkien fantasy.  Dragon Age is so brilliant and counter-culture in so many ways, that I feel it'd suffer as a setting if it allowed the elves to "recover" or even remotely approach the cliche that elves possess in other fantasy fiction settings.

 

Sometimes, it's good to be the beaten underdog.  It's inspiring to be the one kicked down who gets back up again.  Othertimes, it's also nice to see a jerk get their comeuppance.  I see the Dalish through a filter of both, really.  They are a bunch of jerks, who regularly ****** off other people and get kicked down.  It's gratifying for me to see karma in action!  

[skotie]

Forgive me if I'm still being ignorant here. I am not sure that declaring war automatically puts you in the wrong. In the World War 2 example Britain declared war against The Nazi's. Before you know it there is an entire coalition of nations determined to make sure that the Nazi's didn't take over the world.

 

The Humans in the Exalted Marches were trying to take over Thedas if I'm not mistaken. They were destroying the Elves homes. Doesn't that make that declaration of war justified?

Also interesting to mention World War 2, did Germany still exist as a country after the war? My memory is a little fuzzy. Because it's interesting to notice that the Dales was appropriated by humans in the aftermath of the exalted march.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Nice Inquisitor by the way. That must have taken you ages. Mine tend to look strange.

 

THANKS!  I did work for god-knows-how-long in Character-Creator!  I am still not 100% happy with her look, as I imagined something a bit different, but she still turned out pretty good!

 

Forgive me if I'm still being ignorant here. I am not sure that declaring war automatically puts you in the wrong. In the World War 2 example Britain declared war against The Nazi's. Before you know it there is an entire coalition of nations determined to make sure that the Nazi's didn't take over the world.

 

The Humans in the Exalted Marches were trying to take over Thedas if I'm not mistaken. They were destroying the Elves homes. Doesn't that make that declaration of war justified?

We're not talking about simple declarations of war.  Not even really talking about a right or wrong, to be honest.

 

Post-Andraste, the Elves were granted the Dalelands as their realm.  There was a peace between human and elves.  Then- depending on who you talk to in-game, SOMEONE invaded the other's lands.  The Dalish Elves in DAO maintained that the peace was broken by the humans.  But then as you started to explore Elven Ruins and got Codices, you started seeing there was some propaganda at work.  There are STRONG suggestions in the codices spread across the games, and then in dialogue from the books and web sources, that the Elves of the Dale, for unknown reasons, decided to put forth an invasion of neighboring human lands, despite being a near-suicidal campaign that was guaranteed to end in devastating failure for the elves.  There hasn't been much explanation beyond that as to WHY the Elves decided to launch their invasion, only that it happened.  And then the humans, well...  they didn't respond very positively to that.

[myahele]

Each clan is pretty different from each other. Minaeves clan kicked her outout to fend for herself because she was a mage.

[BronzTrooper]

* sighs *  Of course elf-related threads always go downhill, regardless of the original premise.

 

On the upside, I guess it shows how well-written the DA universe is for the fan-base to embody the politics and views of the different factions in Thedas.  Take what you can get, right?

[BronzTrooper]

Each clan is pretty different from each other. Minaeves clan kicked her outout to fend for herself because she was a mage.

 

It wasn't that she was a mage, it was that she was the 3rd mage born in her clan.  According to DA:I, Dalish clans have only 2 mages besides the Keeper.  Any other mages are either given to other clans or left the fend for themselves (which I don't understand, but whatever).

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Also interesting to mention World War 2, did Germany still exist as a country after the war? My memory is a little fuzzy. Because it's interesting to notice that the Dales was appropriated by humans in the aftermath of the exalted march.

It'd also be historically remiss to neglect to mention that Germany didn't really exist as a nation at all, for most of European History.  The formation of Germany as a nation occurred within one lifetime prior to WWII, in 1871.  That's only 67 years before the invasion of Poland by Nazi Germany.  Prior to the Prussian unification of Germany by Bismarck, Germany consisted of numerous little principalities and states.  There were MANY people in France and Britain who were in support of a fragmentation of Germany after both WWI and WWII, breaking it back down into a bunch of little states that could not threaten the rest of Europe again.  Had they done so after WWI, it's entirely possible the horrific events of WWII might have been avoided.  That potential decision functionally would have destroyed the "German Identity" as a national concept.  Perhaps every bit as severe to contemplate as the culture-wipe inflicted on non-Dalish elves in Thedas?

[skotie]

It wasn't that she was a mage, it was that she was the 3rd mage born in her clan.  According to DA:I, Dalish clans have only 2 mages besides the Keeper.  Any other mages are either given to other clans or left the fend for themselves (which I don't understand, but whatever).

If you talk to Minaeve as dalish you find out her clan did the same thing to her when she was only seven(possibly eight can't remember) years old. Now that is something to hate the dalish over. Why they can't have more then a few mages is beyond me, if your safe with two why not three or four?

[Kinsz]

An Elf leading THE Inquisition is just wrong though, i thought i'd get that racist feeling out of the way

[BronzTrooper]

If you talk to Minaeve as dalish you find out her clan did the same thing to her when she was only seven(possibly eight can't remember) years old. Now that is something to hate the dalish over. Why they can't have more then a few mages is beyond me, if your safe with two why not three or four?

Yeah, I know.  And I think she was 8, iirc.  She mentions it regardless of which Inquisitor you're playing as (she told my m!Qunari about it in my second playthrough).

 

I wouldn't go so far as to hate the Dalish over that.  I don't like it, but I don't hate the Dalish because of it.  But then, I'm a Dalish fan, so meh.  What I want to know is the reasoning behind it. If it had to do with the Templars being able to find them more easily the more mages there are in the clan, I might understand that.  I may have to do with possession, but the Dalish have different views on spirits than Circle mages (in that they are wary of all creatures of the Fade) and there are dozens of mages in the Circles pre-mage/Templar war.  I hope BW clears this up some time soon.  It just seems nonsensical for the Dalish to do that atm.

[myahele]

Pretty barbaric to kick out a child due to being a mage. Prior to this many thought Dalish were accepting of mages and passed them around to clans that were lacking mages. Especially since mages are more or less the leaders of a clan.

At least humans put their mages in circles....or kill them the instant they manifest their powers.