156 réponses à ce sujet

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Yeah...  it certainly isn't something that makes me wanna hug a Dalish.  More like Slap a Dalish.

[skotie]

Yeah, I know.  And I think she was 8, iirc.  She mentions it regardless of which Inquisitor you're playing as (she told my m!Qunari about it in my second playthrough).

 

I wouldn't go so far as to hate the Dalish over that.  I don't like it, but I don't hate the Dalish because of it.  But then, I'm a Dalish fan, so meh.  What I want to know is the reasoning behind it. If it had to do with the Templars being able to find them more easily the more mages there are in the clan, I might understand that.  I may have to do with possession, but the Dalish have different views on spirits than Circle mages (in that they are wary of all creatures of the Fade) and there are dozens of mages in the Circles pre-mage/Templar war.  I hope BW clears this up some time soon.  It just seems nonsensical for the Dalish to do that atm.

I'm a Dalish fan myself, I just remember the Dalish clans are much like the different human nations, even though they aren't veiwed the same. Your character says they found different ways but still, I would like to find Minaeve's clan and hold them responsible for sending a little girl off to fend for herself at that age. Anyways considering you were spying on human affairs and your clan seems to be prohuman I believe they did find other ways.

 

I agree though the reasoning is just kind of meh, how can a few more mages honestly hurt anything. Of course we have to remember that in Thedas mages just up and turn into abominations for the stupidest of reasons all the time, even those mages who supposedly know how to resist spirits/demons.

[BronzTrooper]

Pretty barbaric to kick out a child due to being a mage. Prior to this many thought Dalish were accepting of mages and passed them around to clans that were lacking mages. Especially since mages are more or less the leaders of a clan.

At least humans put their mages in circles....or kill them the instant they manifest their powers.

 

Like I said, it was due to her being the 3rd mage in her clan after the Keeper's First and Second.  It had more to do with how many mages were already in the clan than the fact that she was a mage at all.  If her clan only had a First, she'd have been Second.

 

That does remind me of Zatharian's clan in DA:O, though.  Besides Zathrian, Lanaya, the clan's halla tender (forget her name), and Aneirin are all mages.  So, besides Zathrian, there are 3 mages in the clan.  Does that mean that each clan has their own set limit to how many mages they have at one time?  Or does it have to do with the size of the clan itself?  Zatharian's clan seems larger population-wise than Sabrae clan in DA:O and DA2.  Granted, Sabrae clan was likely getting more city elves joining up in DA2 due to their proximity to Kirkwall, but that's besides the point.

 

Then again, this is pure speculation.

[myahele]

The only reason I can think of is to maybe reduce completion between mages(future leaders of clans)

One of the quests for the Dalish in DAI was looking for a Dalish mage who was angry that he wasn't chosen as the keepers 1st, so he ran away to prove he was better by going to an sacrad place....on the way he resorted to blood magic and got himself killed by demons.

But yeah, since clans try to meet up every 10 years you'd think they'd at least wait and see if other clans needed a mage

[The Lovlend]

And I'm first generation Chinese-American, my homeland was invaded multiple times over centuries by Westerners bearing sword, fire, and cross.  We're still the bad guys in movies.  (When's the last time American Indians were bad guys in Hollywood?  The 50's?)  Hell, we weren't even allowed to be citizens of the US til post-war 1947 due to the 14th Amendment (Chinese Exclusion Act) which is STILL on the US Constitution today, just the language was altered.  We're the only ethnicity ever cut out of inalienable human rights by a Constitutional Amendment...  Didn't know that, did you?  Yeah, thought not.  Things are tough all around.  And you're bleeding over the inequities of real-life history and fiction, which is not a healthy coping mechanism I might add. I'm addressing the truth in narrative that is the canon material of the world of Thedas.  I honestly find the Dalish to be the clinging remnants of a reprehensible and decadent fallen-civilization of blood sacrifice and slavery.  I can tell you right off the bat that I've never viewed the American Native Tribes to even remotely resemble the characteristics or historical details of such an EVIL empire.  Rather I have every bit of empathy for the history of invasion and subjugation by Western Power, knowing and understanding the history of my own people in comparison with yours.  If you are seeing similarities to the Ancient Elves and the Dalish, I really don't know what to say.  You obviously have more self-hate issues than I do.  I feel for you, I do, but this is not the perspective to win people over to another POV.  And just adding... I'm not using my real life ethnicity to excuse or justify fan-love or fan-hate for a fictional faction or group of people.  Take a step back, breath, and realize that you're projecting things onto others that literally don't exist.

I don't even know anymore. My perspective is skewed because of how close to home the dalish are. Now, they evolved into their own thing, but in origins, it was obvious how much my people influenced the dalish. Some of the origin story was deja vu for me. As I said, my opinion doesn't matter. I called you out because I felt genocide is kinda bad to wish for, even in fantasy. But really, I give up.
Your long paragraphs and big words have stumped this idiot.

[BronzTrooper]

I'm a Dalish fan myself, I just remember the Dalish clans are much like the different human nations, even though they aren't veiwed the same.Your character says they found different ways but still, I would like to find Minaeve's clan and hold them responsible for sending a little girl off to fend for herself at that age. Anyways considering you were spying on human affairs and you clan seems to be prohuman I believe they did find other ways.

 

I agree though the reasoning is just kind of meh, how can a few more mages honestly hurt anything. Of course we have to remember that in Thedas mages just up and turn into abominations for the stupidest of reasons all the time, even those mages who supposedly know how to resist spirits/demons.

 

True, especially considering how they're spread all over the place for the majority of 10 years before each Arlathvhen.  Honestly, it would really depend on the general reasoning behind the mage limitation for me.

 

Like I mentioned above, the mage limit could be different based on the clan itself, whether because of their views or because of their size.  It's something to ponder, at the very least.

[Abraham_uk]

Quite often a situation looks like a situation we can relate to.

Then we dig deeper only to find that it's nothing like the situation we had in mind.

 

Maybe I'm wrong in comparing the plight of the Dalish to the plight of the Native Americans.

On the surface they seem similar. But perhaps they're very different groups that faced very different situations.

 

Besides, I doubt the real life Native Americans would enjoy being compared to the Aboriginals of Australia.

There are similarities, but I guess they're not the same. It would be offensive to assume that all tribes are the same.

Heck even within the Native Americans there was a dense variety of tribes with very different cultures and customs.

 

So much like the Native Americans, when we talk about the Dalish, maybe we're talking about hundreds of very different tribes.

Tribes that all have different attitudes to mages. Maybe that incident was typical of that specific Dalish clan and not of the Dalish as a whole.

[BronzTrooper]

The only reason I can think of is to maybe reduce completion between mages(future leaders of clans)

One of the quests for the Dalish in DAI was looking for a Dalish mage who was angry that he wasn't chosen as the keepers 1st, so he ran away to prove he was better by going to an sacrad place....on the way he resorted to blood magic and got himself killed by demons.

But yeah, since clans try to meet up every 10 years you'd think they'd at least wait and see if other clans needed a mage

 

Maybe, but Lanaya had to compete to be Zathrian's First, and it was implied that there was at least 2 other mages in the clan.  Possible retcon by BW (again)?

 

And yeah, I remember that too.  But then, Jowan turned to blood magic because he was worried that he wouldn't get his Harrowing, which resulted in Irving deciding to make him Tranquil.  Either way, it backfired on them and it was because of things other than "I WANT ZE POWAH!"

 

And yeah, that would make sense.

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't think a truly racist character would have worked, even in Origins you had to cooperate with other races but I do agree that there could have been more options to show a bit of prejudice. The fact that you can't ever say these made up derogatory terms is somewhat disappointing. Even Merrill calls hawke a shem out of anger at one point if you do not give her the Arulin'Holm and she isn't racist at all. 

 

It's not really the same as them not giving you the option to be homophobic and transphobic because those tensions do not exist in Thedas the same way they do in the real world. Tensions between races, cultures, mages/non mages ect do exist in Thedas in a big way. You character should be able to show some prejudice even if just out of ignorance. It did seem like that stuff was downplayed in this game compared to in other games and that does disappoint me a little. I do hope it isn't because of certain criticisms coming from certain people about what is and isn't acceptable in a damn video game.  I doubt it is because of that though. 

[PsyQUEpedia]

Pretty barbaric to kick out a child due to being a mage. Prior to this many thought Dalish were accepting of mages and passed them around to clans that were lacking mages. Especially since mages are more or less the leaders of a clan.
At least humans put their mages in circles....or kill them the instant they manifest their powers.

Every clan is different. There is a conversation with Vivienne whereupon a Dalish mage can talk bout the number of mages in a clan. In the lore it definitely seems to be more than 3 for the average clan.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I don't even know anymore. My perspective is skewed because of how close to home the dalish are. Now, they evolved into their own thing, but in origins, it was obvious how much my people influenced the dalish. Some of the origin story was deja vu for me. As I said, my opinion doesn't matter. I called you out because I felt genocide is kinda bad to wish for, even in fantasy. But really, I give up.
Your long paragraphs and big words have stumped this idiot.

Well, let me set certain things straight and clarify what I think you walked away misunderstanding from me.

 

First off, I have a best friend who's passionate about her Irish/Celtic heritage, and she swears she's observed major similarities between her people of origin, and the Dalish too.  There's a lot of details, especially in their knotwork, that I have to admit seem really inspired by the Celts. 

 

But I think what I am seeing here, is that the story of the Dalish is really a universal one for any people who have been victimized in human history.  I think you saw what you saw, the deja-vu and similarities, because we all want to see our reflection in pop culture.  We get excited to see a character, a hero, in movies or television, who isn't white for example.  I freaking worshipped Lando Calrissian when Empire Strikes Back came out, because I'd NEVER seen a non-white hero in the movies before, particularly one as big as Star Wars.

 

So I understand what you felt.  To be honest, it's a little weird for me everytime the Qunari make an appearance, cause I wonder to myself...  is this how White People see Asians?  Some kind of monolithic hive mind?

 

But that's what I mean, I'm projecting.  I think you're projecting too.  It's natural.

 

But also, I think when you latched onto my closing line about wiping out the Dalish, you missed that I was addressing the mention of pity that you brought up in a previous post.  For me... seeing something  or someone die slowly.... a wounded horse, or a deer hit by a car, my impulse is relieve them of their pain, to give them a merciful end.  By extension, I see the Dalish as needing something like that, something quick, sudden, and merciful to release them from their misery. 

[Vanth]

I have yet to see a moral choice game where the choices aren't between saint and douchebag.

 

Both The Witcher and Skyrim have morally grey decisions to make. 

 

In fact, even though you couldn't be actually evil, the Mass Effect games did much better in letting you approach the world from an alternate angle. I have tried playing DA:I through again being as 'evil' as I can, but it is incredibly bland. 

[Hawklyn Starblade]

If you read the varius codex entries on the fall of the Dales you find both sides are at fault. As well that the Dales were doomed anyway as Orlais wanted the elven nation gone as it was in the direct path of their planed expansion. In fact from readlng it seems the Elvan nation was doomed from the start and the exalted march was not the result of actions by the elves soley but an conspiracy to remove the elven nation from being an obstacle to empire expansion plans.

[LexXxich]

The question is not "are dalish good?" or "is racism justified?". It's "why can't my inquisitor be a selfish, power-hungry, hateful, evil person?".
You can kick Sera off at any time, tell her mean things, deny her idea of fun. But you can also be supportive of her, even to the point of romance. That's good, that's roleplaying options.
Can your Inq say "Solas, you outlived your usefulness, get out of my castle or die"?
Can your Inq say "Envy, things you show me are exactly what I want to do with the force under my command, I'll kick you out of my head and go cosplay 40k Inquisition"?
Can your Inq say "Morrigan, I noticed you don't have any flirt dialogue, so I made some"?
Or just even "[Lie]I'm the true Herald of Andraste"?

It's entirely reasonable that person who saves the world might not be a good person. Or even have any good intentions for doing it. yet in DAI opportunities to be militant, ruthless inquisitor can be counted on your hand fingers.

[Noelemahc]

Which is hilarious, since Thedas, being a darker setting than the Mass Effect Milky Way, gives you fewer practical options to be a heartless war criminal than the increasingly more and more Jedi-like Shepard.

[Ryriena]

Maybe, but Lanaya had to compete to be Zathrian's First, and it was implied that there was at least 2 other mages in the clan. Possible retcon by BW (again)?

And yeah, I remember that too. But then, Jowan turned to blood magic because he was worried that he wouldn't get his Harrowing, which resulted in Irving deciding to make him Tranquil. Either way, it backfired on them and it was because of things other than "I WANT ZE POWAH!"

And yeah, that would make sense.

Yeah I think it was a retcon by bioware I mean the Dalish in the other games never gave up Mages, as I remember Fenyrinal being sent to the Daliah in DA2 and they had three Mages in the game in clan. The Keepper, Merrill, and the dreamer Fenyrinal whom was a half elf. The elves in the circle would be city elven that grew into her or his powers.

[Kirikou]

Yeah I think it was a retcon by bioware I mean the Dalish in the other games never gave up Mages, as I remember Fenyrinal being sent to the Daliah in DA2 and they had three Mages in the game in clan. The Keepper, Merrill, and the dreamer Fenyrinal whom was a half elf. The elves in the circle would be city elven that grew into her or his powers.

No. For one Merrill is not originally from the Sabrae, she was given to them because they needed a Mage at that meeting between clans. Two, not all clans are the same nor do they do the same things, Shouting retcon because something is different from what you've seen before without looking at the facts makes no sense. Stop doing it. ಠ_ಠ

[Ryriena]

No. For one Merrill is not originally from the Sabrae, she was given to them because they needed a Mage at that meeting between clans. Two, not all clans are the same nor do they do the same things, Shouting retcon because something is different from what you've seen before without looking at the facts makes no sense. Stop doing it. ಠ_ಠ

I looked up facts and missed that part urgh goggle failed me.

[Equalitas]

Whatever you might think or bioware says, you play as the herald of andraste. Coz the people in the world respond to you that way. I can imagine that this sort of like when you respond to people in a certain way with gender/racial politics. Just a thought

[abearzi]

Whatever you might think or bioware says, you play as the herald of andraste. Coz the people in the world respond to you that way. I can imagine that this sort of like when you respond to people in a certain way with gender/racial politics. Just a thought

No, you play as a character who the buck-toothed, dirt-farming peasants refer to as the Herald of Andraste. There is a world of difference. It is never actually established if you are or not, if the Maker is real or not, if the thing in the Fade was Justinia or a spirit, etc. 

[Jackal19851111]

It's like, here I am, a proud Dalish elf, surrounded by ignorant shemlin, and I can't tell them how filthy they are to their faces? It's disgusting. 

 

An example: I take the Knight-Enchanter specialization. I feel like I'm continuing the traditions of my people, y'know. Anyway, I go talk to Vivienne (first mistake) and she's all "Oh now you can go protect the Chantry with your Chantry-approved fighting style." And I'm like, hello? Arcane Warrior was here first you vermin shem. But I can't tell her that and I just have to sit there and nod like a good little knife-ear. 

 

I don't expect BioWare to care about the plight of the Dalish, but this goes too far

 

Yes DAI needs more RP options, for me I was disappointed straight off the bat with both my Qunari and Dalish. As Dalish, I wanted my toon to spit on these self-righteous shems accusing me, instead my toon was begging for her life trying to prove her innocence no matter what option I took. Meh, oh well.

[Tex]

Whats sad is Sera gets it.... surprised she and Solas aren't best buds since they have have the same outlook.  Bunch of pretenders digging up the past and parading around in it without even knowing what it was in the first place.
 
There really should have been an "Aha moment" cutscene where Solas realizes Sera is the way of the future for elves..

Ah yes the dalish shall all become lesbians it will be glorious. on a more on topic note she has a very strange outlook on life but I admit I like her childishness and insanity.

[llandwynwyn]

I think Clan Lavellan is supposed to be friendly to  humans, so maybe the writers thought it would be out of character for the apprentice of the keeper of a pro-human Dalish clan to be anti-human?

 

But then Bioware decided to continue the dalish genocide tradition and make the shems destroy your clan.

 

OP is right.
 

[skotie]

But then Bioware decided to continue the dalish genocide tradition and make the shems destroy your clan.

 

OP is right.
 

The outlook for the Dalish on the whole is very bleak considering the Herald of Andraste's own clan is wiped out so easily.

[BuddyL0ve]

The biggest thing I think people are missing, especially when comparing the elves to real-world cultures, is that they are not human. They are a dying species, desperately clinging onto whatever bits of their fallen and decimated existence are left, while they are slowly but surely being out-bred by humans. Elves breed with humans= humans. They aren't American Indians, Aborginals, or anything like that. They are Cro Magnon being out-bred by Humo Sapiens (yes, misspelled on purpose due to filtering). A dying species, killed by their own hand, and will be nothing more than memories in a few more generations. A few isolated pockets of Dalish, eking out a meager existance while the world moves on around them... and then even those will be gone.

Sera is the perfect example of the fate of their species. Raised knowing nothing but humanity, anything distinctive about her species stripped away ages ago by the encroachment of humans, knowing only human culture and origins, following their faith. She is, for all intents and purposes, a human. And as the bias against elves slowly but surely falls away, and what few elves remain begin to interact, and interbreed, with humans, elves will die out, just like the griffons did.

I think it's one of the themes of Dragon Age: the Death of the Fantastic. The dwarves are slowly but surely being erased due to the Darkspawn. The elves destroyed themselves. Magic, while prevalent, is seen as something to be feared and shunned. Anything seen as "not normal" is seen as a negative. The Templars gain their abilities by deliberately making themselves anti-magical, anti-fantastic. Even the realm of dreams, the Fade, is seen as something akin to hell, full of demons and Blight, by the average person.

What elves remain are the last gasp, the walking fossils, of a dying species.