49 réponses à ce sujet

[CaoSlayer]

He is obviously being sarcastic, I think I dont want to talk about reaper in a lego topic, just note that the diference is that dragon rage and rampage are on the same tree and so is not costly to get both.

 

The problem is that counterattack is placed on the bottom of the other tree and you must waste points in not so useful and very conditional pasives (Like "you dont die once a minute", sorry but I will take "you are harder to kill" any day of the week) when you could get more useful things to keep yourself alive longer and being a more effective tank for most your levels.

I have tried counterattack builds a couple of times and find myself lacking necesary pasives until the very end, I don't stay on level 20 but promote asap. I think that every skill point is very important for the lego and make a huge diference because the synergy (+50% extra guard +60% armour against everything +50% vs proyectiles = one very hard to kill guy).

 

Taunting the whole area is not that useful when you must then burn all your other skills asap to just keep yourself alive or have to hide behind a pilar, I can already taunt a good area as long my companions don't go leeroy and if even they go, I have enough self survavility and power to finish the area alone if they go down that is the problem I find with builds without payback I deal too little damage to clear the area. Not talking about going there, taunting and keeping them looking the other way so everyone else gets flank bonuses.

 

If you have a group of friends with good teamwork indeed things changes since they are not going to do something overly stupid to ruin the day.

[tbxvividos]

Cao lied when he said he's tried counter strike.

If he actually tested it he'd know that the knockdown it causes prevents you from taking damage.

AND it instantly gives you full guard.

AND you can cycle it with walking fortress infinitely as long as you have crit, are attacking, and are being attacked.

Walking fortress and cs are the two best abilities legionnaire have access to.

I'd drop war cry before I'd drop cs, any day of the week

[AwesomeBabyLion]

Whenever I see threads like this I just get this desire to tell the OP to just play whatever he or she wants to play and not be forced into these pre-defined best builds, but then I realize it's a huge pain to reset if you make a mistake and I change my mind =|

 

Follow the herd my child. At least until they include respec items.

[CaoSlayer]

Cao lied when he said he's tried counter strike.

If he actually tested it he'd know that the knockdown it causes prevents you from taking damage.

AND it instantly gives you full guard.

AND you can cycle it with walking fortress infinitely as long as you have crit, are attacking, and are being attacked.

Walking fortress and cs are the two best abilities legionnaire have access to.

I'd drop war cry before I'd drop cs, any day of the week

 

I lied, Orly?

 

[PvtNiss]

I cant tell if you are serious or not...

 

I wasn't, so I didn't read the rest of your post.

[tbxvividos]

Jump to 2:11 and count the number of mobs cs knocks down vs the number of times I take damage.

(That's the second cs in the video, the first is around the minute mark but I'm only attacked twice over its duration so the second activation in the video is a better example since I'm attacked numerous times)

[Melkezine]

I'm thinking of trying out something like
War Cry
Walking Fortress
Counterstrike
To the Death

Anyone tried this? Or is it a bit overkill, and you're better off with Payback or Shield Wall instead of TtD?

[tbxvividos]

Ttd is fine for groups. Personally I prefer payback.
payback recovers you from status effects, knocks enemies down, has a really big aoe, and can generate a lot of crits instantly - which lowers all your cooldowns by 1 second per crit assuming you're specced into that passive. Which I always would be.

I dont think I'd ever take shield wall on a leg.
maybe would on a templar though.

[CaoSlayer]

Jump to 2:11 and count the number of mobs cs knocks down vs the number of times I take damage.

(That's the second cs in the video, the first is around the minute mark but I'm only attacked twice over its duration so the second activation in the video is a better example since I'm attacked numerous times)

 

So what you really meant is that there are some I-frames after each activation reducing the overall damage, interesting.

 

Still useless against groups of archers that was my point anyways, by example at 18:36 you activate it and at 18:39 you have already lost the whole bar and some hp.

I will take two activations of war cry and four skill points over one use of counterstrike,

Besides I have bad experiences in some areas to use counterstrike and taunt enemies far away in another room overcrowding the group but I will grant that as a personal peeve.

[Reginald Cousins]

I actually love it when counterstrike or any other skill like long shot bugs out and pulls the entire zone.  I like controlled chaos and the faster zone clear.  Sure it could lead to deaths and a potential wipe but it gives more excitement over a slow methodical boring World of Warcraft raid-like run.

[Shinnyshin]

Still useless against groups of archers that was my point anyways, by example at 18:36 you activate it and at 18:39 you have already lost the whole bar and some hp.

I will take two activations of war cry and four skill points over one use of counterstrike,

Besides I have bad experiences in some areas to use counterstrike and taunt enemies far away in another room overcrowding the group but I will grant that as a personal peeve.

 

Useless against archers?  Counterstrike taunts them off all other targets onto you, knocks them down, damages them, increases party damage on them by 20%, gets free potential crits on them for -cd, and gets free Walking Fortress procs.  Considering you have Turn the Bolt and archers are the primary cause of death for other teammates and it's often hard to get their aggro onto you fast enough considering range, I'd say Counterstrike (especially in tandem with Walking Fortress) is the most useful skill the Legionnaire has against groups of archers.  Counterstrike is how I often go infinite on Walking Fortress, since a room full of Horrors/Archers is an all-you-can-eat buffet if you have Counterstrike and Walking Fortress up.  So no, Counterstrike isn't at all useless against groups of archers.

 

As for 2 activations of War Cry and 4 skill points, Counterstrike builds usually leave out Shield Wall, meaning they effectively have no stamina costs.  You still get to spam War Cry whenever you want.  Plus the passive right before Counterstrike is the Warrior equivalent of Guardian Spirit and one of the most useful passives you could possibly get, making you immune to instaburst and letting you cycle your cooldowns a few more times in tense fights.  I'm not sure I'd consider those skill points wasted considering what you get.

 

So what you really meant is that there are some I-frames after each activation reducing the overall damage, interesting.

The i-frames are weird.  You don't get any against ranged attacks and they seem...inconsistent against melee.  You almost always get iframes immediately after popping it, lasting for a few seconds or so, but I've used Counterstrike for complete invulnerability against Templar Commander's spin to win.  Long after what I usually consider the grace period.

 

Edit: Nvm you get some iframes against ranged most of the time.  Though I find that I get anti-ranged iframes for a much shorter period than anti-melee.  To make up numbers, you're immune to ranged attacks for the first 1.5 seconds and melee for the first 3...but are immune to Templar Commander, Demon Commander, and Stalker attacks for 6-8ish seconds.

[tbxvividos]

So what you really meant is that there are some I-frames after each activation reducing the overall damage, interesting.

Still useless against groups of archers that was my point anyways, by example at 18:36 you activate it and at 18:39 you have already lost the whole bar and some hp.
I will take two activations of war cry and four skill points over one use of counterstrike,
Besides I have bad experiences in some areas to use counterstrike and taunt enemies far away in another room overcrowding the group but I will grant that as a personal peeve.

The activation at 18:36 ate the boss' full ranged volley FROM THE REAR. As you should be well aware, the boss cannot be knocked down and (this you may not have been aware of) the iframes from cs rely on being able to knock the mob down.

If anything that is further proof of the STRENGTH of counter strike - it's a GUARANTEED full guard bar as opposed to warcrys POTENTIALLY full guard bar (not enough nearby enemies in that situation for a full bar from war cry)

And @shinny you're spot on about the inconsistancy. The iframes are more consistant than not, but sometimes a ranged attack or magic attack will get through. In the video you can see iframes from ranged as well. (Or check the venatori vid on my channel)
it's not always 100%, but it's fairly reliable


Edit:



this is legionnaire vs venatori
8:14 is an example of archers being chain knocked down while I don't take damage. I take 1 damage from some of the arrows, but if you watch closely there are additional knock downs with no damage pop up seen.

[horangi88]

He is obviously being sarcastic, I think I dont want to talk about reaper in a lego topic, just note that the diference is that dragon rage and rampage are on the same tree and so is not costly to get both.

 

The problem is that counterattack is placed on the bottom of the other tree and you must waste points in not so useful and very conditional pasives (Like "you dont die once a minute", sorry but I will take "you are harder to kill" any day of the week) when you could get more useful things to keep yourself alive longer and being a more effective tank for most your levels.

I have tried counterattack builds a couple of times and find myself lacking necesary pasives until the very end, I don't stay on level 20 but promote asap. I think that every skill point is very important for the lego and make a huge diference because the synergy (+50% extra guard +60% armour against everything +50% vs proyectiles = one very hard to kill guy).

 

Taunting the whole area is not that useful when you must then burn all your other skills asap to just keep yourself alive or have to hide behind a pilar, I can already taunt a good area as long my companions don't go leeroy and if even they go, I have enough self survavility and power to finish the area alone if they go down that is the problem I find with builds without payback I deal too little damage to clear the area. Not talking about going there, taunting and keeping them looking the other way so everyone else gets flank bonuses.

 

If you have a group of friends with good teamwork indeed things changes since they are not going to do something overly stupid to ruin the day.

People go down in your party because you DON'T have Counterstrike... Pow! But seriously, the only off-center passive that I grab before CS is Turn the Bolt. With all your actives and Turn the Bolt/Blade, you are buff. Take a little damage maybe, but never go down. I think  Bear Mauls Wolves and Flow of Battle are must haves, but all the other passives are tasty gravy. And yeah, you burn through your abilities. Your actives are meant to be cycled through regularly to help keep the hate and refresh your guard. Lasty, if you have to hide without those extra passives, learn how to block. Shield Wall is a beast with Deep Reserves, which is center-line on the Counterstrike tree. Group of friends, whatever. We be PUGGIN!

[CaoSlayer]

My experience with PUGs and counterstrike is that I only get to use it every other room because people rushes to the next room asap without letting the cooldown go down. I don't know what kind of equipment you have to crit often enough to make a difference, neither helps that I like to rush to the archers fast and payback them so they shoot way less.

 

I have tried the next combinations (no listing walking fortress):

 

shield wall, counter strike, war cry: I deal next to no damage, very little damage mitigation and have zero crowd control besides "go and hit me". Boring and reliant on team mates for a good clear time, wipe on demon commander in the dsp do the usual stupid thing of staying close to me while tanking DC.

 

counter strike, war cry, payback: Better everything on papel  but in the end I find myself having to kite and hide more since no block.

 

shield wall, war cry, payback: Best balanced build, I can run close to the enemies, taunt the largest archer cluster and hold them for the ten seconds that lasts the 200% extra armour using only walking fortress if the dim my guard for recovering one and refleshing war cry anew. Enemies archer usually spend more time on the ground because payback, I ignore melee enemies with just the ocasional block and focus in killing archers quick. Against big enemies, I usually I aggro him for giving the other guys flank bonuses.

 

 

I going to try counterstrike, payback and shieldwall then, but I still can't subscribe to your counterstrike religion.

[Shinnyshin]

My experience with PUGs and counterstrike is that I only get to use it every other room because people rushes to the next room asap without letting the cooldown go down. I don't know what kind of equipment you have to crit often enough to make a difference...

The trick is to use an axe (much higher attack speed) and slot in +crit upgrades and a rune, which can also crit. Open with Counterstrike and then Walkimg Fortress. Never use Fortress before Counterstrike. I often go infinite on Walking Fortress, which sometimes allows me to get off 2-3 Counterstrikes in the same fight. We never have to wait for it to be up for the next room because, well...it's always up. I've actually gone infinite with Counterstrike before, the -CD stacking is that intense.

Worth noting this is on Perilous. In Threatening, people tend to kill everything too fast for tanking or control to matter. For gear, I now have a 15% CDR amulet and two 10% crit rings..which is really, really, really nice. But I've been using this build in Perilous since before I had any of those with great success.

Taking inventory of all the -cd stuff in the Legionnaire's kit, you have:
-1s every time someone attacks you and WF is on
-1s every time you crit with attacks or Payback Strike
-1s every time your rune crits
-1s every time your Counterstrike crits

This means you get massive incentives for just straight brawling with as many people as you can find. I find Shield Wall actually hurts my survivability because it makes me lose stamina while not gaining cooldowns since I'm not attacking as often. True invulnerability is the best defense in the game and if you reliably can get Walking Fortress down to 0-5s, you're in your happy place.

[horangi88]

I still can't subscribe to your counterstrike religion.

 

Fair enough. This is DAMP, not ISIS.

[tbxvividos]

Moon Axe has very fast attack speed and 16% crit.
dwarven proving shield has 5 cunning.
5% crit blue ring.
unique 10 cunning neck.
Multiple rogue promotions.

Lots of crits.
very low cooldowns.
walking fortress and counter strike are usually rotated without needing war cry.
war cry only used in situations of heavy damage being taken.

[Shinnyshin]

?..walking fortress and counter strike are usually rotated without needing war cry.
war cry only used in situations of heavy damage being taken.

This matches my experiences. I run the double armour on War Cry (you pass it up for Unbowed and 25% guard, right), which gives it a definite purpose in my rotation. I War Cry when I need to re taunt things, am about to take tons of damage to my guard, or want to hold off on Walking Fortress for a few seconds so Counterstrike will benefit. Worth noting most of my deaths are from greeding on Walking Fortress, trying to use it as my guard depletes and instead getting instabursted because there's no shield-gate mercy period. I'm working on just spamming it whenever I'm taking damage instead.

[CaoSlayer]

That kind of equipment explains a lot of things, since I only got droped a 10% crit ring and that is all.

 

I wouldn't recomend a starter player counterstrike then since, like me, they aren't going to be able to chain wf/cs that easily.

[Shinnyshin]

That kind of equipment explains a lot of things, since I only got droped a 10% crit ring and that is all.

I wouldn't recomend a starter player counterstrike then since, like me, they aren't going to be able to chain wf/cs that easily.

For gear, I now have a 15% CDR amulet and two 10% crit rings..which is really, really, really nice. But I've been using this build in Perilous since before I had any of those with great success.

The gear helped me do better what I was already doing just fine. Honestly, the axe may be the most important component due to the much higher speed and I'm using just a high level blue with +crit upgrades slotted in.

Also, I regularly play with a full group of Legionnaire fans and we all run the exact same actives. Not all of us have those accessories.

[Shinnyshin]

Hmmm, have to point out that the patch was a massive stealth-nerf to Legionnaire and my playstyle as a whole.  Between the changes to Turn the Bolt, the possibly bugged armour values, and Counterstrike no longer giving iframes reliably it's much, much, much harder to play without Shield Wall.  Still prefer it but...not sure I can say it's outright better for everyone regardless of gear in the way that it used to be.

[Satsujinma]

What patch?

[Shinnyshin]

There was a patch about 5 days ago in which they seem to have changed the order in which damage mitigation from Turn the Bolt and armour were applied--understandably since it was making most ranged attacks (excluding Knights and Horrors) do 1 damage.  In the process, it looks like something went weird with how +armour works and I've been feeling much, much squishier ever since.  I had initially thought that I was just playing more recklessly or it felt weaker 'cuz I was releveling from promotions but it looks like the Legionnaire (and Templar to a lesser extent) might both be much, much squishier than they were.

 

See this reddit thread for more info: http://www.reddit.co...the_bolt_tests/ .

 

Also, it feels like Counterstrike isn't giving iframes nearly as generously post-patch, which is getting me killed a lot.

[Credit2team]

shield bash gives you a reliable knock back, excellent guard damage, and works as a gap closer (you need to take the bonus point)

warcry and counterstrike are obvious must haves

the last slot can be filled by walking fortress or shield wall. I've tried builds with both and they are both perfectly viable. If you are lazy go with walking fortress. If you actually like having to time blocks like I do, go with shield wall. 

most of the necessary passive's you'll get along the way to these abilities but make sure to get the passive that decreases ranged damage and the one that makes you unflankable. 

[Credit2team]

Reason for counterstrike over unbowed is because the issue isn't legion dying.  Its mobs running past you and killing your mates.  Sure you can slow down the run and have a ranged pull around the corner and wait for mobs to come then warcry or you can just run in and counterstrike when needed.  Also with the passive cutting words 20% more dmg for taunted mobs, counterstrike's 6 second taunt speeds up the run even more.

THIS^

most people don't realize that CS has a huge taunt radius, much bigger than warcry's

and cutting words just makes everything smooth =D