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Female Romances - Really, Bioware?


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#151
AlanC9

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My original post that was contradicted was in response to someone saying "[Liara doesn't need Shepard's help]." I sufficiently proved that incorrect by providing multiple examples of her needing Shepard. I don't hold this against her character so you don't need to get all defensive over it. Facts are facts. I agree with you that she is far from "totally helpless" but then I never accused her of such. She simply embodies the "helpless female" trope more than any character I can think of in Mass Effect.
 


I'm not sure what this really proves, though. Doesn't every single character in ME need Shepard's help to succeed at whatever it is they need to do?

Also note that in Refuse Liara saves the galaxy after Shepard screws up and fails. I suppose this counts as a trope subversion.

#152
Voragoras

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My original post that was contradicted was in response to someone saying "[Liara doesn't need Shepard's help]." I sufficiently proved that incorrect by providing multiple examples of her needing Shepard. I don't hold this against her character so you don't need to get all defensive over it. Facts are facts. I agree with you that she is far from "totally helpless" but then I never accused her of such. She simply embodies the "helpless female" trope more than any character I can think of in Mass Effect.

 

What does it matter why? She failed to save Feron on her own and the missing variable is Commander Shepard's assistance.  :rolleyes:

 

The insecurities are there because she realizes that she's frustratingly reliant on Commander Shepard. I'd be annoyed at that in her shoes as well. She specifically states that Shepard is there to help her again just as he/she did on Therum. It's a direct reference and couldn't be much clearer.

 

I saw no evidence that Thessia was more decisively destroyed than Palaven and certainly not Earth. Unless we're supposed to believe that the "most advanced" race in the galaxy was conquered and obliterated in a few hours while the turians, krogan, and humans held out for months? Tali's reaction is more extreme, definitely, though that's not really related to whether or not Liara needed Shepard's help. Tali's emo suicide was triggered by the utter destruction of her "home" (Migrant Fleet) before her eyes, whereas this did not happen to Thessia.

 

But you said she's "easily the most helpless character in Mass Effect history", when... She's not. At all. She needs help a few times, but all but one of those times are optional and she accomplishes it all anyway, without Shepard. The only thing she doesn't accomplish is saving Feron, and that's not just because Shepard isn't in her party.

 

The "assistance of Commander Shepard" isn't just that, though, is it? It's the assistance of the best stealth ship in the galaxy, equipped with the most state of the art equipment in the galaxy, and with a crew comprised of some of the most powerful individuals from every race. And the missing variable isn't Commander Shepard's assistance alone - it's the Cerberus intel. If you remember, the whole thing that sparked it off was Shepard showing up and said "let me help you - here is intel on the location of the base from Cerberus, let me help", and Liara took the opportunity.

 

If Shepard just showed up on her own and said "let me help", Liara would still need to locate the base on her own, and would still need to figure out how to get there. Liara was also the one who headed to her contact first, she was the one who escaped Tela Vasir's assassination, and she was the one who chased Tela Vasir down afterward, and she also played a huge role in killing the Shadow Broker himself, which Shepard couldn't have done on her own. All proactive things for Liara to be doing. She didn't just sit around in Shepard's shadow as she did all the work for her.

 

Without the intel from Cerberus, it may have taken her longer to figure out, taken her more time to recruit the necessary. She needed to recruit mercs skilled enough to take on the base with her - that takes time. She needed to find a way to do all of this without alerting the Shadow Broker himself - again, this takes time. It might've been these delays that meant she was too late to reach Feron, and therefore it was too late to save him.

 

I'll also note that all of the personal quests in ME1, ME2, and ME3 required Shepard's assistance to solve. Does that make them all "the most helpless character[s] in Mass Effect history"? Miranda can't save her sister without Shepard. Jacob doesn't find his father without Shepard. Garrus won't kill Sidonis without Shepard, and Zaeed wouldn't have killed Vido without Shepard. Samara couldn't capture Morinth without Shepard. Kasumi wouldn't have gotten Keiji's greybox without Shepard. Are they all helpless, too? The galaxy would've been destroyed by the Reapers if it weren't for Shepard. Is the entire galaxy helpless?

 

Heck, Tali's life needed to be saved twice, on Freedom's Progress and again on Haestrom, and then her personal quest involves her having to be saved by Shepard again or she'll be exiled from the Migrant Fleet. Tali is by far my favourite character, but just in ME2 alone she needs to be saved more than Liara does in the entire series. She also needs to be saved from Saren's goons in ME1 when recruiting her.

 

Like I said, Liara is frustrated by what she feels to be her incompetence compared to what Shepard has accomplished on her own. Shepard saved her life on Therum, and she's helping Liara again now, and Liara can't seem to return the favour. Her expressing insecurity about her usefulness does not make her helpless. Garrus expresses doubts about himself and his handling of multiple situations across the trilogy as well - why isn't he considered helpless? What about Kaidan? He's feeling incompetent and helpless and doesn't feel like he can live up to being a Spectre. Does this mean he's helpless, too? You also have to save him from Eva Core after she basically smashes his skull.

 

And omg, the Turians are a heavily militarised society. It's stated numerous times in-game and in-codex that the Turians are constantly preparing for war, and that their entire culture is centred around being a huge and powerful armed force. Even then, they were taken by surprise and are being decimated, hence needing the Krogan support. Asari have been referenced constantly as a diplomatic and artistic race that specialise in subterfuge rather than outright conflict, and all of these skills are useless against the Reapers.

 

Did you not watch the scene where Thessia was destroyed? Reapers were landing everywhere on the planet with Lieutenant Kurin screaming for help before she died, whereas you landed on Menae for Palaven and weren't seeing the devastation there first hand. Plus, just moments before, she found out that the Asari government had been hiding a Prothean beacon from the rest of the universe, and her entire religion and the culture that sprung from it was a lie.


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#153
Calders

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dudes on these forums whining about how they're oppressed

 

Comedy gold... of course you are right... the next thing you know we will invent some king of mythical structure, let call it a matriarchy, that is constantly acting to oppress us whilst heaping huge privilege on women. :P



#154
celestialfury

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Comedy gold... of course you are right... the next thing you know we will invent some king of mythical structure, let call it a matriarchy, that is constantly acting to oppress us whilst heaping huge privilege on women. :P

 

the same dudes who act like patriarchy and sexism are a myth suddenly think sex discrimination exists when they don't like options in a video game, true fact. 


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#155
Kappa Neko

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*snip*

First: I love you.

 

Second: my point about Liara is that she's the only squadmate who's Shepard's equal. As much as I love Kaidan, he's not an equal. By this I mean competence, intellect and emotional stability.

The beauty of the Liara romance is that Shepard cannot save the galaxy without her! This does not apply to any of the others. Liara is very very special to the entire plot of the trilogy. She is the one who studied the Protheans. Without her Shepard would never have understood what's even going on. Virmire would not have happened without her, so Saren would never have been stopped. End of story. The reapers win without Liara....

She is the one who finds Shepard's body and brings her/him back from the dead. She becomes the Shadow Broker to help Shepard. She is the one who figures out the crucible... and YES, she saves the galaxy in the refuse ending. It's all about her!

She is the brains behind everything. And Shepard made it happen. They are the perfect team of two exceptionally smart and brave individuals.

It's one of the best romances I have seen in a game.

 

All the others don't know who they are without Shepard, they are needy babies. They all have daddy or mommy issues, are insecure. Liara's mother? Doesn't paralyze Liara at all. She deals with it. Moves on. Liara goes through the most amazing transformation. She's as strong as Shepard at the end. They are both heroes. Shepard's story is also Liara's story. All the others are replaceable.

 

If Liara and Shepard had a child, it would be Cassandra. I'm blown away by how noble and altruistic Cassandra is. The inquisition is her doing. She is to the inquisitor what Liara is to Shepard in many ways. So determined and moral, she pretty much outshines the inquisitor. She's the real hero to me. I wish Bioware made us play her, the game is about her anyway. She is the one who knows everything like Liara. She understands what's going on, sees everything that's wrong with the world. She is the "enabler", again like Liara. There would be no victory without Cassandra. She got the ball rolling. Just as Liara did when she helped everybody with the beacon. Both put you on the right path, guide you, support you. And you in turn help them become stronger, help them transform into the best they can be. What they were meant to be. And together you change the world.

Perfect symbiosis. It's beautiful.

 

None of the male companions in Mass Effect or Dragon Age are this integral to victory and equals to the protagonist. Make of that what you will.

Alistair came close in terms of story relevance. But he was not an equal. He had no unique qualities that put him above the others. He was not that smart, he was a coward. You had to toughen him up for the throne. You had to teach him responsibility. Liara and Cassandra have that from the start. It's who they are and what makes them special. They are extremely competent by default. They do what they do regardless of the protagonist. Liara will always make her discoveries and save the day. Cassandra will always start the inquisition and make you the herald. And fight for justice until her dying breath.

 

Best female video game characters ever. :)



#156
Spectre Impersonator

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I'm not sure what this really proves, though. Doesn't every single character in ME need Shepard's help to succeed at whatever it is they need to do?

True. But I was merely pointing out that there's nothing special about Liara as far as her starting off as some kind of badass as strong as Cassandra, let alone as effective as she is in the very end.



#157
Spectre Impersonator

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But you said she's "easily the most helpless character in Mass Effect history", when... She's not. At all. She needs help a few times, but all but one of those times are optional and she accomplishes it all anyway, without Shepard. The only thing she doesn't accomplish is saving Feron, and that's not just because Shepard isn't in her party.

No I didn't, I said "possibly". Here's the quote. No, I didn't edit it.

Errr, what?  :huh: Liara is possibly the most helpless female in Mass Effect history.

'Possibly' indicates I'm open to the argument that she's not. Which, if you want to include the likes of... Conrad Verner and Kelly Chambers and the traumatized dock worker, I can grant you. But although I didn't specify, I was talking about party members. Regardless, it doesn't matter to the overall point that Liara is helpless at times, and relies on the player for aid. Why did Feron die then, if it had nothing to do with Shepard?

The "assistance of Commander Shepard" isn't just that, though, is it? It's the assistance of the best stealth ship in the galaxy, equipped with the most state of the art equipment in the galaxy, and with a crew comprised of some of the most powerful individuals from every race. And the missing variable isn't Commander Shepard's assistance alone - it's the Cerberus intel. If you remember, the whole thing that sparked it off was Shepard showing up and said "let me help you - here is intel on the location of the base from Cerberus, let me help", and Liara took the opportunity.

Cerberus intel which would never have been researched without Shepard's presence, a ship which would never have been rebuilt without Shepard's presence, a crew which would never have been recruited without Shepard's presence... you could interrupt here with "but Shepard wouldn't even be there in ME2 without Liara." Also true... however, Liara would still be in the mine on Therum without Shepard. The point still stands that without Shepard's individual choice to share the intel combined with his vital assistance against the Shadow Broker, Feron is dead and the rescue mission is not a rescue mission.

If Shepard just showed up on her own and said "let me help", Liara would still need to locate the base on her own, and would still need to figure out how to get there. Liara was also the one who headed to her contact first, she was the one who escaped Tela Vasir's assassination, and she was the one who chased Tela Vasir down afterward, and she also played a huge role in killing the Shadow Broker himself, which Shepard couldn't have done on her own. All proactive things for Liara to be doing. She didn't just sit around in Shepard's shadow as she did all the work for her.

Before the DLC was released, Shepard DOES show up and offer to help. Liara refuses it. Bad move since it cost Feron's life in my playthrough completed before LotSB came out. If she'd said yes, the resourceful Commander could have done any number of things to track down the Shadow Broker but we'll never know what they are because she said no.

 

As stated multiple times already, no one's denying Liara is a strong and effective and useful character. My initial post was a direct contradiction to Kappa Neko's assertion that Liara inherently comes packaged as THE ideal hero when it's simply not true, unless maybe you skip Mass Effect 1 & 2.

Without the intel from Cerberus, it may have taken her longer to figure out, taken her more time to recruit the necessary. She needed to recruit mercs skilled enough to take on the base with her - that takes time. She needed to find a way to do all of this without alerting the Shadow Broker himself - again, this takes time. It might've been these delays that meant she was too late to reach Feron, and therefore it was too late to save him.

A key word in there is "may have". We simply don't know anything other than that the mission went off successfully with the aid of Shepard, and yes Cerberus and the valiant Normandy crew. It hardly matters who the help is coming from to disprove the notion that Liara is entirely self-reliant.

I'll also note that all of the personal quests in ME1, ME2, and ME3 required Shepard's assistance to solve. Does that make them all "the most helpless character[s] in Mass Effect history"? Miranda can't save her sister without Shepard. Jacob doesn't find his father without Shepard. Garrus won't kill Sidonis without Shepard, and Zaeed wouldn't have killed Vido without Shepard. Samara couldn't capture Morinth without Shepard. Kasumi wouldn't have gotten Keiji's greybox without Shepard. Are they all helpless, too? The galaxy would've been destroyed by the Reapers if it weren't for Shepard. Is the entire galaxy helpless?

First, see the response to AlanC9. Second, each of the cases you mention are individual cases and their importance to each character can be argued. For instance, Garrus can survive the suicide mission whether he does the Sidonis mission or not and the shooting of the coward is hardly essential to Garrus' future.

 

And uh, yeah, the entire galaxy is rather helpless considering all it took to destroy the Reapers was a pistol. I'd be pretty disappointed to learn that our outer-space neighbors wouldn't have anything better to offer than the largely self-interested/worthless/stupid races who need one Spectre to personally help them all out before they contribute, especially those pathetic asari (that's not a shot at Liara, just her species. Liara is cool). 

Heck, Tali's life needed to be saved twice, on Freedom's Progress and again on Haestrom, and then her personal quest involves her having to be saved by Shepard again or she'll be exiled from the Migrant Fleet. Tali is by far my favourite character, but just in ME2 alone she needs to be saved more than Liara does in the entire series. She also needs to be saved from Saren's goons in ME1 when recruiting her.

Arguably, Tali's life didn't need saving on Freedom's Progress but whatever... separate debate from the one about Liara, begun here:

Of course the only "perfect" partner and ideal relationship was Liara. No drama, full support. Bioware tried to teach us all a valuable lesson with Liara (not kidding).

Some of the male characters come close. But none are as determined, passionate and strong as Liara and Cassandra. What sets them apart from the rest is that they don't need your help. They are not broken, don't need babysitting so they don't screw up. They have their insecurities and doubts, especially Cassandra. But their flaws are not the kind of flaws Anders or Solas have.

Like I said, Liara is frustrated by what she feels to be her incompetence compared to what Shepard has accomplished on her own. Shepard saved her life on Therum, and she's helping Liara again now, and Liara can't seem to return the favour. Her expressing insecurity about her usefulness does not make her helpless. Garrus expresses doubts about himself and his handling of multiple situations across the trilogy as well - why isn't he considered helpless? What about Kaidan? He's feeling incompetent and helpless and doesn't feel like he can live up to being a Spectre. Does this mean he's helpless, too? You also have to save him from Eva Core after she basically smashes his skull.

So what exactly would you call Liara in this situation, if not "helpless"?

Spoiler

Her very first line is in fact: "Can you hear me out there? I'm trapped, I need help!" First impressions are pretty significant. I feel her insecurities stem from this point onward and she feels she needs to make up for it subconsciously. It's part of her arc. If she'd never been helpless, she may well have never evolved into the effective companion she becomes. Yep, Kaidan could certainly be defined as helpless a few times in ME3, same as his counterpart, Ashley. Garrus, not as much. Maybe when the drop ship shoots him in the face in ME2.

And omg, the Turians are a heavily militarised society. It's stated numerous times in-game and in-codex that the Turians are constantly preparing for war, and that their entire culture is centred around being a huge and powerful armed force. Even then, they were taken by surprise and are being decimated, hence needing the Krogan support. Asari have been referenced constantly as a diplomatic and artistic race that specialise in subterfuge rather than outright conflict, and all of these skills are useless against the Reapers.

(I would also argue that appropriately applied diplomacy and subterfuge are definitely effective against the Reapers)

Did you not watch the scene where Thessia was destroyed? Reapers were landing everywhere on the planet with Lieutenant Kurin screaming for help before she died, whereas you landed on Menae for Palaven and weren't seeing the devastation there first hand. Plus, just moments before, she found out that the Asari government had been hiding a Prothean beacon from the rest of the universe, and her entire religion and the culture that sprung from it was a lie.

It's also stated in dialogue with Hackett pre-Thessia and with others throughout the ME series that the asari are supposedly the "most powerful" race in the galaxy. The asari ship, the Destiny Ascension is allegedly the strongest in the fleet, indicating that the asari ought to know how to fight a war. So you claim the asari specialize in diplomacy... then why were they less capable here than the turians and krogan as well? The primarch and councillor both show an ability to negotiate and deal directly with their old enemies in order to save each other. Meanwhile, the asari (who have had the most time to prepare AND the most time to evolve) ignore the rest of the galaxy and set themselves up for miserable failure. Instead of holding the asari leaders accountable, the whole invasion of Thessia is treated as some great tragedy and failure on the player's part when the truth is... the asari brought it on themselves in more ways than one. I pity Liara but it's also a bit annoying how she acts like Thessia is the only planet getting totally blitzed. "Maybe the next time we go to war, the Alliance can spring for air support."  :rolleyes:

 

I think seeing the rape of Palaven second-hand is just as effective as showing how totally effed that planet is. Being on the surface of Thessia never revealed that level of destruction. Same with Earth, on which we do get to see the knackered surface. Hearing the audio of an ineffective Lieutenant and some of her soldiers getting glassed didn't really compare to seeing this with Garrus pointing out where he was born.

191713.jpg

Anyway, it was fun to slam the silly asari, but this is getting way off topic. I think your post is partially a sensitive reaction to what you perceived as an attack on a character you like and I can assure you that it's not. I  <3 Liara and her character transformation is possibly the best in the series.



#158
Spectre Impersonator

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Second: my point about Liara is that she's the only squadmate who's Shepard's equal.

If that was your only point, why did you say Liara doesn't need help?

She is the brains behind everything. And Shepard made it happen. They are the perfect team of two exceptionally smart and brave individuals.

Right there you're minimizing the role of other intelligent characters, such as Mordin, who cured the genophage in a few days. The galaxy also doesn't get saved without Miranda if you're looking for a contribution specific to a romance interest.

You had to toughen him up for the throne. You had to teach him responsibility. Liara and Cassandra have that from the start. It's who they are and what makes them special. They are extremely competent by default. They do what they do regardless of the protagonist. ( :? )

 

This directly contradicts your statement about Liara and Cassandra's arcs.

Both put you on the right path, guide you, support you. And you in turn help them become stronger, help them transform into the best they can be. What they were meant to be. And together you change the world.

Perfect symbiosis. It's beautiful.

Do you really deny that Shepard isn't important to Liara becoming what she does in Mass Effect 3? As I alluded to in my last post, Liara's arc through the three games is the best part about her. No character is really tied to Shepard as much as Liara is. She comes a long way from the naive professor investigating Prothean ruins. There's no way that the Liara from ME1 does anything that an evolved Liara does. It seems like you kind of agree with me on that but you also say that she is who she is from the beginning so I'm confused. On the whole, I think you've summed up Little Blue's role pretty well and this discussion has certainly made me want to go back to Mass Effect until Bioware fixes Inquisition. But I can't agree with everything working out just dandy without the protagonist. At the very least, without Shepard saving her ass on Therum, Liara never achieves anything. But I think we both know that the connection goes a lot deeper than that and there's the "help."

 

Liara's essentialness to the plot and stopping the Reapers was most likely given to her uniquely because she is the only romance who cannot die on Virmire or in a suicide mission and it does make her special but this doesn't just remove Shepard from the equation, nor should it depreciate the heroic actions of the other romances. Kaidan/Ash died for everyone on Virmire, forever cementing him/herself as an integral part of saving the galaxy. You could argue that the Virmire Survivor is actually less important to the ultimate goal of saving the galaxy though that depends partly on head-cannon and how you use them.

Liara will always make her discoveries and save the day. Cassandra will always start the inquisition and make you the herald. And fight for justice until her dying breath.

 

Best female video game characters ever.  :)

Lastly, I just want to say that I wouldn't call dying out at the hands of the Reapers but leaving behind a message for Buzz Aldrin and "my sweet" so that they can hear it and prepare for the Reapers in their own organic way, creating a legacy of who-knows-whats, "saving the day." That one's down to Shepard, the hero.



#159
RShara

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Guys guys, let's not get involved in LI rivalry :)

 

I never particularly cared for Liara--always got the "Damsel in Distress" vibe from her, and the extremely soft voice creeped me out more often than not.  But just because I didn't like her doesn't mean that she's helpless or bad or that the things I didn't like can't be things that other people do like.

 

I just really hope they give us a Solas DLC that continues the arc!



#160
AlanC9

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True. But I was merely pointing out that there's nothing special about Liara as far as her starting off as some kind of badass as strong as Cassandra, let alone as effective as she is in the very end.


I can see that. Liara's a bit unusual in ME for having character power growth that's much more akin to, say, a PC from the Dragon age games than it's like the other ME characters' paths. Other players have complained that the way she can instantly hang with the other ME1 squadmates isn't all that credible; I suppose this would go for Tali too. Depends on how much you want to read into their backstories.

#161
Voragoras

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<snip>

 

I don't care nearly enough about Liara to read or reply to that, but I'm sure it's coherent, so I respect your difference of opinion. Maybe if this was a discussion about Tali, I could rally myself troops and defend her to the death, but I barely tolerated Liara as it is.

 

I never particularly cared for Liara--always got the "Damsel in Distress" vibe from her, and the extremely soft voice creeped me out more often than not.

 

This frustrated me so much, since her soft voice sounded kinda forced and awkward, and so all of her lines felt stilted and bizarre. Kind of like a robot impersonating what a human is supposed to sound like, although ironically EDI sounds much more organic than Liara does, voice editing aside.

 

The worst was Liara's "ready for the NEXT mission?!?!?!?!?" in ME3, though.



#162
Spectre Impersonator

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I don't care nearly enough about Liara to read or reply to that, but I'm sure it's coherent, so I respect your difference of opinion. Maybe if this was a discussion about Tali, I could rally myself troops and defend her to the death, but I barely tolerated Liara as it is.

:angry: But I spent all that time writing that sh*t. I'm surprised you don't like Liara after all that.



#163
Voragoras

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:angry: But I spent all that time writing that sh*t. I'm surprised you don't like Liara after all that.

 

I don't like her, but that doesn't mean I think she's necessarily a weak/helpless character. She just mostly blends into the background for me, unless the plot decides to shove her in my face, and then I get frustrated.

 

And sorry! I have an essay on Thatcherism in on Monday and I've not started yet, so I can't afford long posts at this time. :wizard:



#164
jumpinghermit

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I disagree. You forgot all the good ones. 

In DA:I there's also Cullen as well as Iron Bull, and Bull isn't a fling. Bull is awesome, light and easy-going. Cullen is awfully sweet and romantic.

While Blackwall isn't a character any of my Inquisitors will romance he is still one of the most interesting characters story-wise. And Solas has one of the best romances, the fact that he breaks it up is heartbreaking but also necessary. He is a great character.

 

In DA:2 there's Fenris. He is angsty, but less angsty than Anders and is way more tolerable. And I don't mention he is awfully loyal to Hawke either way.

 

In DAO there's Zevran. He is fun, he is great and he is complex. 

 

ME we have Garrus and Kaidan - those two are better than all the sexy ladies of all three Mass Effects combined imo.

 

 

I'm glad we girls have variety.

 

well ... you could have just said garrus and skipped everything else. he makes guys want to be galls ... that's how good he is. 



#165
LoudAngryJerk

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i'd totally agree with you but its pretty obvious that the girls got the soft end of the stick.

straight women have 4 romances, bi have 6

straight men: 2, bi: 5

 

*hands you the worlds tiniest violin to play 'my heart bleeds for you'*


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#166
Chiramu

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That's why I romance Cullen, he is NORMAL. I like normal characters, writers are packing too much mystery and splendour into characters now. Cullen is a hard-working commander with a living family and doesn't write enough to his siblings. 

 

He just needs more cuddle time instead of all the kissing time. Cuddles are superior.



#167
jumpinghermit

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That's why I romance Cullen, he is NORMAL. I like normal characters, writers are packing too much mystery and splendour into characters now. Cullen is a hard-working commander with a living family and doesn't write enough to his siblings. 

 

He just needs more cuddle time instead of all the kissing time. Cuddles are superior.

 

kissing is fine, cuddles are superior ... swooping is the best. 



#168
RShara

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I'd really like a romance with some drama in the middle, and a happy ending though.  Solas is utterly fascinating for me, but the ending.... *big sad tears*



#169
Harvest_King

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According to the random chantry nuns I passed by the other day, Iron Bull gave one of them "consoling", and then some 2 more consolings after she "consoled" him, and the way he talks, he's probably "consoled" half the camp.



#170
Kappa Neko

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@ Spectre Impersonator

 

Yes, Liara needs to be saved on Therum at the very beginning. I should have said after that. I totally agree that Liara had to grow into the badass woman that she is in ME3. Where did I say Shepard played no role in that? I said their relationship is a perfect symbiosis. They are strongest together. Shepard saved her so she could save the galaxy. With Shepard. Not alone. But without Liara Shepard wouldn't have made it either. What I was trying to say is that Shepard did not need to hold her hand and babysit her and PERSUADE her into doing the right thing like the others. Her admiration and love for Shepard was what sparked her development. But this development was mostly coming from WITHIN. Shepard was DEAD. Liara went through emotional hell, but somehow managed to find her/his body, cut a deal with Cerberus and bring her/his back to life that way. She tracked down the Shadow Broker and then became the Shadow Broker.

Liara went through her biggest change in character during the two years that Shepard was dead. This is very very important. The player is shocked about her sudden ruthlessness on Illium. Liara had to toughen up, but she did so alone without help.

 

Her love for Shepard transformed her. But this determination and passion is something that's always been inside her. It's what made her an amazing scientist even before she met Shepard. Nobody had to tell Liara to do all these things. That's what I mean by not needing help. She didn't fall apart when Shepard was gone, quite the opposite.

Liara is the only one you can't die for a reason ;)

 

About Mordin: Yeah, he's important. But remember that he kept defending the genophage until Shepard opened his eyes. They all have these character flaws that Shepard has to fix. Even sweet characters like Tali, who kept crying about the geth taking away their homeland. You have to make her realize that the Quarians brought this on themselves. Liara had no such flaw. She was insecure, but that's it. Cassandra has no huge character flaw either. She's very hard on herself, constantly reevaluates everything.

 

But I don't want to derail this thread further. We probably really disagree much anyway^^



#171
Voragoras

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That's why I romance Cullen, he is NORMAL. I like normal characters, writers are packing too much mystery and splendour into characters now. Cullen is a hard-working commander with a living family and doesn't write enough to his siblings. 

 

He just needs more cuddle time instead of all the kissing time. Cuddles are superior.

 

Well, that and the PTSD. And the lyrium withdrawal. Both of which are quite serious issues as well.



#172
Kendar Fleetfoot

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Good point... but I would add that most of the people complaining about the female Li's aren't saying "make the male Li's less attractive and more 'realistic" they want the female Li's to be better.  That said, I don't agree with people complaining about the number of Li's, that's just the way the dice rolled this time round.

Well I would have liked to romance Scout Harding and she is an nice realistic looking character.



#173
majcurtis

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oops wrong place for this


Modifié par majcurtis, 15 décembre 2014 - 01:17 .


#174
Grieving Natashina

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Edit: No longer relevant.  



#175
Lucy Glitter

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I think that this is a bit of a superficial complaint. All characters need conflict and drama, it's just your opinion that you get the short end of the stick. Romances in general have some that are more bittersweet or sad than others (do I dare mention the infamous ending of Viconia?? SHE IS MURDERED IN THE EPILOGUE.)

 

It's the writer's choice and ultimately they need to make choices that will make the biggest impact on their audience. Sometimes that means that the plot will get in the way of a romance but that is the nature of story-telling - CONFLICT.