25 réponses à ce sujet

[veramis]

The purpose of this thread is to collect players' opinions on DA3MP balance, and maybe people at bioware will read it. This thread will give you two methods to share your opinion, and if you want, you can do both. If someone at bioware wants to take ownership of the document just send me a PM.

 

Method 1:

 

Post in this thread what abilities or class in-general you think are too strong, too weak, already balanced, or bugged/poorly implemented (i.e. bad animations, buggy double-casting, insane synergy in abilities for a class), why you think so, and what you think would be a good buff or nerf to make it in line. You may also post your opinion of the loot system in this thread.

 

If someone makes a suggestion to buff or nerf that you disagree with, simply post your own opinion on the ability instead of directly responding to that person. If someone suggests a change to a skill which you think is already perfectly balanced or implemented, list the ability and state that you think it doesn't need changing. If someone makes a post you agree with, just use the "like" button to show that you agree with him instead of creating your own post to share the same thing.

 

You can use whatever format you prefer, but keeping it simple would be preferred. To illustrate:

 

Grisly Mutilation, bug, sometimes fears teammates.

Katari movement, poorly implemented, should be given a steamboat appearance because it plays as clunky as one (no jokes like this though pls).

 

Method 2:

 

If you see any mistakes or can help me with on formatting the document (I really don't know how to use spreadsheets), please PM me.

 

DA3MP Community Balance Suggestions

 

Click this document, click the class you want to give your opinion on located at the bottom of the page, find the ability you want to comment on, right-click the box between the ability and the appropriate column, click Comment, and then leave your comment, i.e. Alchemist ability "Elemental Mines" is located on row 3, and if you want to say it is bugged or poorly implemented (column E), then you should comment in the box located at E3.

 

Comment in the class name located at the top left (A1) of the spreadsheet if you want to share your opinion about the class itself, or if you want to comment that the class itself should be nerfed (column C), then comment in the box located at C1. Please do not comment in response to other people. If you disagree with their comments, do not directly respond to them, simply comment in the appropriate column for the reason why you think your opinion is correct.

 

In the 13th class tab "Vase", you may comment with your opinion of the loot system in the box located at A1, also called "Vase".

 

There are four columns to choose from:

Buff: If you think the ability or class needs to be buffed.

Nerf: If you think the ability or class needs to be nerfed.

Balanced: If you think the ability or class does not need to be balanced.

Bugged: If there is a bug with the ability or class or that it is poorly implemented.

[Cirvante]

Pull of the Abyss is bugged. Sometimes the enemies teleport back to their original positions towards the end. Seems to only happen off-host so far.

[TheThirdRace]

I suggest instead of going on a character basis that we go on an ability basis.

 

If you find Pull of the Abyss too overpowered, you comment on it, not on the Arcane Warrior. If you find Twin Fang underpowered, you comment on it, not on the Assassin or the Alchemist.

 

That way, it doesn't degenerate into a debate on which character to nerf, which character is plain bad, which character we're sick of seeing, etc. Balancing the abilities instead of the character themselves will also give more options to all characters.

 

So I'll start with Immolate. It's underpowered compared to Firestorm, Fire Mine and Fire Wall. There's literally no logic reason to use it unless you're not leveled enough.

 

A quick take on it would be to play Immolate more like DOT to counter play Fire Mine's more instant damage. Keep in mind the numbers could need some work...

 

Reduce damage from 300% to 100%, reduce the burning time from 8 to 4 seconds and augment burning damage from 75% to 175% on both Immolate and it's upgrade. It's important to note that I didn't change the original total damage of Immolate, I just modified how it's applied to get faster and more efficient result.

 

Fire Mine = 1600% weapon damage upfront + 1600% weapon damage over 8 seconds = 3200% weapon damage on a 24 second cooldown

Immolate = 200% weapon damage + 1400% weapon damage over 4 seconds = 1600% weapon damage on a 12 second cooldown

 

Fire Mine is more about killing most things instantly. That's why you give it a lot of damage upfront and a smaller DOT afterward. The longer cooldown and the delayed activations are its drawbacks.

 

Immolate is more about killing over time. That's why you give it low damage upfront and a lot of damage over a small period of time. The 4 seconds DOT will be more effective than Fire Mine's at the cost of having enemies being able to target you because they're still alive after the initial (upfront) damage.

[XxMrHollywood]

Rouge & Warrior classes across the board need a buff.

 

I have only beaten hard with 4 mages.

[Chaz Darkbane]

Personally I think the Templar needs to a good hard looking at, right now she doesn't really fit any role well at all. She can't tank like a Legionnaire can, she can't focus enemies down like a dps character can and she can't provide the crowd control of other characters. Really the only place she lives in right now is that of spamming Horn of Valor to try to be helpful, and that really disappoints me. 

 

Blessed Blades seems to be the main problem to me. The skill just never sees any use because of just how bad it is and a couple of changes could completely change the way the class plays and make them a helpful and appreciated member of the team.

 

• Make Blessed Blades either a party wide buff for the duration, or make the ring larger and have it follow the Templar around. This would allow her team to benefit from it without having to cuddle together in team wipe formation,
• Make the cooldown reduction from Blessed Blades affect all of the Templars skills. It already has a smaller cooldown reduction of .5 seconds and it isn't like the Templar has access to permataunts and invulnerablity like the Legionnaire does. This would allow her more options other than just relying on the WoH/SP combo.

I also would like to say that if the Templar isn't going to be given easier access to cooldown reduction then she needs access to either War Cry or To the Death to make up for it and allow her to tank efficiently.

[veramis]

Just posting to let you guys know that the document is complete. It is located in the OP and also here:

 

DA3MP Community Balance Suggestions

 

I have also added a 13th class called Vase. In the box located at A1, "Vase", you can comment what you think of the loot system in general, the Buff box (B1) if you think it should be buffed, the Bugged box (E1) if you think it is bugged, etc. You may also give your opinion of the loot system in this thread.

 

To clarify the purpose of this thread and document, they are meant to allow people's opinions on balance to be concentrated into one location, while at the same time avoiding the long drawn-out discussions that people have when they agree or disagree about issues related to balance.

 

Why should you post your opinion in this thread or in the document? Because a weak ability or class means an ability or class which will be used less, and that negatively impacts replayability. And because an overpowered ability or class makes other abilities and classes used less, and that also negative impacts replayability. A game that is well-balanced, and has less bugs and poor implementations, is one that is more fun.

[Knight-Enchanter Lavellan]

I feel that the whirlwind ability should be improved to support more strategic use instead of being neglected in favor of other abilities. My suggestion for whirlwind is that incoming physical projectiles are destroyed as long as the ability is channeled. I think this will allow classes that have access to this ability to act as  an active defense against enemies like archers; which serve as a sort of "kryptonite" against melee characters while hopefully maintaining an offense based use as well.

 

Another ability that I feel needs an enhancement is the block and slash ability. I feel that this ability should be altered so that it blocks all incoming projectiles draining stamina for each successful block, but only generates guard on a successful counter attack; the counter attack or 'slash' can only occur when attacked in melee. I feel this change would allow the block to be used much more effectively as it already leaves the user stationary and thus vulnerable to flanking or strafing enemies.

[Kanova]

Katari is currently bugged in his health/armor. Dying in 2-3 swings (with full guard) on silver.
Armor has the highest stat at 87 and his health stat is on par with Reaver. Yet ANY class in this game can take more punishment, including ANY CLASS. 

[Apl_Juice]

Traps need a buff. The normal ones, not the mines. Even if you can find a group that will pause while you place them, 300% weapon damage is nothing, especially considering Fire Mines can be dropped from a distance and end up dealing nearly 4x as much damage.

[Apl_Juice]

People aren't going to like this, but I really, really don't like how Death Siphon works.

 

Compare it to similar skills:

 

-Dance of Death restores 50 stamina and no health only on your kills.

-Devour is a melee attack that drains only HP depending on how much you already have, with a 65 stamina cost and a 12s cooldown.

-Rampage is a 10 second buff with which you gain 10% health on each attack with a 65 stamina cost and a 60s cooldown.

-Death Siphon is an always-on buff that gives 10% health and 20 Mana on anyone's kills at any range with zero cooldown and zero cost.

 

 

But wait, there's more!

 

Death Siphon is given to two mages, one with the absolute best crowd control capability (Elementalist) and the other with what is perhaps the best damaging skill (Walking Bomb + Necro). Devour and Rampage are sitting on a melee class with no other useful methods of protecting itself. Further still, Rampage does not heal that much in its short duration without using Dragon-Rage, which costs health, detracting from its healing capabilities. Elementalist, meanwhile, also can Barrier himself and has access to Fade Step/Cloak if he really wanted to go overkill with self preservation. Even the Necro gets Ice Armor, which is a massive 50% damage reduction. Kataris get Charging Bull, which isn't even on the same scale defensively yet must be in melee range constantly to do its job (which other classes can do better). Even Archers/Hunters have to dance around to dodge the stray arrow and can't heal or guard themselves at all.

 

 

Death Siphon ought to have a cooldown or a proximity requirement. As it is now, my Elementalist can Barrier, run up and drop a Firestorm, and run away. Even in the rare case he gets hit, my team doesn't have to do anything special in order to heal me completely. Its a little absurd.

[TheThirdRace]

@Apl_J

You're completely right, Death Syphon is way too good. You also forgot that if you die and are waiting for someone to raise you, you can raise yourself up without any help from anyone else if any enemy on the map dies before you bleed out... OMG overpowered!

 

It should have a 10 meters radius max and probably 5% health instead of 10%.

 

Any "Heal on Kill" shouldn't work when you're down...

[Storm_Changer]

I don't think Death syphon is OP on the harder difficulties, if im honest. 

 

Realistically you can get one-shot on perilous, if not two shot consistently. Healing 10% will at best provide you with an additional shot before going down. 

 

Bare in mind the skills the ele has isn't burst damage - it's sustained AOE. Therefore actually killing enemies as an Ele isn't as common as classes like archer. 

 

Not sure about necro, haven't tried necro at all yet. 

 

I think adding a large-ish radius to death syphon could be fair. The issue then being that elementalists are often at the back of parties, not the front. Forcing them to go into the front line would not be worth 10%, nevermind 5% healing on kill. 

 

I'd also point out that there's weapons and/or modifcations that provide the exact same ability. I'd argue that as long as it remains on-kill and mages remain relatively weak in terms of single-target DPS, it's fine. 

[Dragkonias]

Katari is currently bugged in his health/armor. Dying in 2-3 swings (with full guard) on silver.
Armor has the highest stat at 87 and his health stat is on par with Reaver. Yet ANY class in this game can take more punishment, including ANY CLASS. 

 

Wait...is this true?

 

I felt like my Katari was going down way faster than my Reaver but I just attributed to the fact that Reaver has health regen abilities.

[Dragkonias]

As far as changes go. I do feel like some of the enemy damage output needs to looked at, especially on higher difficulties.

[Pyromaniac]

Is anyone else having a problem with the rampage skill on the Reaver? It works most of the time for me but there's a few games where the life on hit just doesn't proc.

[Dragkonias]

Is anyone else having a problem with the rampage skill on the Reaver? It works most of the time for me but there's a few games where the life on hit just doesn't proc.

 

Yeah this has happened to me quite a few times.

[Kanova]

Is anyone else having a problem with the rampage skill on the Reaver? It works most of the time for me but there's a few games where the life on hit just doesn't proc.

If you go down with the skill active the heal will not work on later activations.

[Scorpio989]

Legionaire - Balanced

Katari - Buff

Assassin - Balanced

Archer - Balanced

Elementalist - Nerf 

Keeper - Balanced

Alchemist - Slight Buff

Necromancer - Nerf

Reaver - Balanced

Templar - Balanced

Hunter - Slight Buff

Arcane Warrior - Nerf

[Pyromaniac]

If you go down with the skill active the heal will not work on later activations.

Well that sucks.. thank you for the reply. Hopefully this gets fixed soon. 

[Apl_Juice]

snip

 

 

Death Siphon is definitely useful on Perilous. Anything that allows you to get past the one shot line is a priority one ability. Death Siphon not only is the best at that, but comes at no cost or risk. Nothing comes close. And sure, it doesn't make you immortal, but Ele and Necro are already top tier when it comes to their respective roles, and they get to sit back and self heal. No one else gets to do that, and no one else is as effective at CC or damage as they are.

[Storm_Changer]

snip

 

You can't get past the one shot line by healing, as even at maximum health you would be one shot. It's useful for transitioning from two to three shots before you die. But even that is limited in use, as realistically if you're taking hits as a mage in perilous, especially w/o barrier, you're probably about to get downed. 

 

It has no cost or risk, but then very few passives do either. They have stipulations that builds are based on to utilize them to their best potential, which is the only way any other passive differs [as death siphon doesn't need working into a character, it simply fits.] 

 

Ele and necro are decent sustained DPS AOE mages, but the reason they're top tier in that role is because they are largely the only ones that can fulfill it fully. It isn't because of Death Siphon. 

 

Keeper and Arcane Warrior have CC ATLEAST on par. Ele/Necro certainly don't provide the highest damage, though they both provide top-tier AOE as that is the entire point of their roles.

 

How exactly can it be nerfed without becoming useless or still potent? Lets compile a list of possible fixes:

• Remove the mana regen - useless, mages can already access heavy mana-regen
• Remove the Health Regen - Useless, mages don't need more mana-regen only
• Reduce the Health Regen - This skill is already weak in perilous, but reducing the HP gained would make it worse still. Sustain is no good vs enemies that one-shot you. So this would push the skill to only be used in the more casual threatening/routine modes. 
• Stipulate a large radius the Ele has to be within - wouldn't change much
• Stipulate a small/medium radius the Ele has to be within - would make the passive too weak and inappropriate for the Ele playstyle

You may have a better suggestion, I'm all ears. They're the only ones I could come up with. 

 

Ultimately the ability has to be balanced in all modes. Its overkill in threatening and routine, but then both of those modes are already easy and don't require sustain to complete. In the mode that would - perilous, it's only useful against specifically weaker enemy types, which by all rights shouldn't be landing hits on you in the first instance. It's useless against stronger enemies like archers. It's equally useless against single-targets. 

 

With barrier up, which should often be the case, the ele won't actually take any damage. Ergo the ability isn't actually that useful, assuming a cautious playstyle [which is necessary for perilous.] In the majority of my Ele playthroughs even being careless on Threatening the passive rarely provides more than some additional mana, which can be nice but certainly isn't necessary. It *CAN* be great, but most often it isn't, and most often I already have 2 healing potions spare if I truly needed them anyway. 

[VilniusNastavnik]

RE: Templar

Replace Challenge with War cry, this will help bring the Templar closer to the Legionnaire tank, whilst not replacing it as the juggernaut of juggernauts.

 

 

Legionaire - Balanced

Katari - Buff

Assassin - Balanced

Archer - Balanced

Elementalist - Nerf 

Keeper - Balanced

Alchemist - Slight Buff

Necromancer - Nerf

Reaver - Balanced

Templar - Balanced

Hunter - Slight Buff

Arcane Warrior - Nerf

Err no..

Leave Necromancer and Elementalist alone. They excel at being the most DPS classes in DAMP because they lack the means of becoming a dedicated support like the keeper and, like all mages, are super squishy.. It is a trade off.. Reaver makes a dreadful tank because it is super squishy for a warrior and excels at DPS. 
 

Legionaire - Balanced

Katari - Buff

Assassin - Balanced

Archer - Balanced

Elementalist - Nerf Balanced. It is a Glass Cannon. You do not ******* nerf Glass Cannons! 

Keeper - Balanced

Alchemist - Slight Buff

Necromancer - Nerf Balanced. It is a Glass Cannon. You do not ******* nerf Glass Cannons!

Reaver - Balanced

Templar - Balanced Buff. Replace Challenge with War Cry. 

Hunter - Slight Buff

Arcane Warrior - Nerf Balanced. Only OP if you two button spam it. Seriously, do not bumper jumper it and it becomes a strong support class.

[Apl_Juice]

snip

 

For Ele, yes, you're totally right in that you will be one shotted regardless on Perilous. My earlier bit about Siphon on perilous applies mostly to Necro because of Ice armor, my bad for not clarifying.

 

Anyway, as far as solutions go, I have no idea. I'd really like to know what the current success rates for each difficulty were; it would help a lot with the discussion. But for the time being, I'll take Threatening as the average. Here, the skill : effectiveness ratio is definitely skewed in favor of Ele and Necro, to a slightly lesser extent (to be fair, its also in favor of AW and Lego, but they're not being discussed). That reason being is because the penalty for a bad decision, getting hit, is largely ignore-able for the aforementioned classes, while it isn't for everyone else. That's thanks entirely to Siphon. However, a nerf isn't the solution, because the current Necro is built almost entirely around it. Necro only excels when she has both Blizzard and Walking Bomb up at once, which can only be sustained because of Siphon. Any nerf to Siphon is felt keenly by her, whereas Ele merely has to be a tad more careful.

 

Honestly, I don't have any other solution aside from what's been said.

-A proximity restriction is only a nerf to Ele, as Necro would preferably be in her Blizzard alongside the enemy. A nerf to Ele in this fashion that doesn't touch his capabilities seems completely fair to me.

-A cooldown would definitely be felt by Necro more than the proximity requirement, but would still be able to benefit the Ele.

-Nerfing the health or mana regen also hurts necro far more than Ele, because Necro relies on that infinite mana and Ice Armor + Siphon allows her to take an extra hit on perilous.

 

Perhaps Ele can get something else entirely. As an Elementalist, if I'm being hit despite Barriers and active CC, I can't really say its unfair that I die.

[Storm_Changer]

Snip

I haven't touched necro yet so I wasn't aware she was slightly more tanky than an ele, so it's also MB for not knowing. I'll focus on ele because it's a class I know more about overall. 

 

I agree that one can be very lazy with especially ele in threatening. But ultimately its then just a convenience for ele in particular, who with barrier shouldn't even proc the passive. It's in a weird spot where its great as a crutch for bad players, but it's pretty useless for any skilled player who 1) avoids damage anyway and 2) usually plays seriously even on threatening. With Barrier ele doesn't need the passive, but placing it on any other class would make THAT class far more overpowered than having the skill on ele, as pretty much every class bar Keeper, legion and high-dps AW would benefit from the sustain. 

 

It may well be TOO good as a crutch for bad players, but ultimately it's got such a niche use in high-tier play, which to me is the type of play that should be balanced more carefully. The issue with proximity nerf is also linked to ele having access to barrier, so he CAN go into front lines, but that isn't the type of play style he's SUPPOSED to be. Yet such a change would force any player with the passive to go in as if they're a tanky legion. 

 

I'm honestly not even sure if it's OP, it just great for newbies and largely poor for high-tier play. It has anti-synergy with barrier most of the time, which holds it back assuming the ele takes barrier. IMO it's weird for ele in particular to have it, but I just don't see a nerf as conducive to his play style, nor do I see it as ultimately necessary. And whilst removing it altogether from ele wouldn't change much, that in and of itself should point out that it's only a minor part of the ele, as passive abilities should be. 

 

Meh. I honestly wouldn't mind if it got removed, but then I'm not the type of player that charges in as a mage and ignores the value of barrier. It's more the newish players that would get hit by the change if anything, which makes me wary of changing it or promoting dangerous play-styles for the new players who rely on it. 

[veramis]

To clarify the purpose of this thread and document, they are meant to allow people's opinions on balance to be concentrated into one location, while at the same time avoiding the long drawn-out discussions that people have when they agree or disagree about issues related to balance.

 

DO NOT DIRECTLY RESPOND TO EACH OTHER. If you disagree with someone, simply state what you think is right and do not use "like" in their post. If you agree with someone, use "like" on their post to show that you agree.