97 réponses à ce sujet

[Andres Hendrix]

Never happening. When you can actually go and get a look at the supposed seat of god you have a waaay more solid argument than most real-life religions.

 

A much more likely outcome is schisms as seen in this game similar to that of the european reformations with greater emphasis of personal faith and harsh criticizm against the central organization.

Well, you are sort of missing the point.  Secondly, Bioware said that it would never answer if the maker (as in the one of the chantry religion) is real or not. Perhaps he was like Jove, and was another very powerful being (and leader of other powerful beings) but did not actually create the universe and those gods (including "Jove") were products of nature per se? Even if he is real, why must people follow his tenants? Or think that he has some sort of claim to their life? People can still live to be good to one another, without religious doctrine. More so, as religious doctrine is monomaniacal. It claims it is the one and only, and must be accepted; there most certainly is no pluralism under such a system. Such beliefs have  a tendency to make people act worse towards one another. Hence, “The Imperial Chantry”.

[2_BR4ZIL_2]

Well, you are sort of missing the point.  Secondly, Bioware said that it would never answer if the maker (as in the one of the chantry religion) is real or not. Perhaps he was like Jove, and was another very powerful being (and leader of other powerful beings) but did not actually create the universe and those gods (including Jove) were products of nature per se? Even if he is real, why must people follow his tenants? Or think that he has some sort of claim to their life? People can still live to be good to one another, without religious doctrine. More so, as religious doctrine is monomaniacal. It claims it is the one and only, and must be accepted; there most certainly is no pluralism under such a system. Such beliefs have  a tendency to make people act worse towards one another. Hence, “The Imperial Chantry”.

 

Again, please do see the epilogue for non-hardened Leliana

[Andres Hendrix]

I wouldn't mind secular humanism as well. And more people like that Doc in Skyhold, who talks about science.

 

But wtf does that have to do with the Chantry? Why can't humanism win on it's own merits, instead of it being tacked on here.

Not sure what your last sentance means, can you perhaps clarify?

[Andres Hendrix]

Again, please do see the epilogue for non-hardened Leliana

I know of it, but it is still not secular. It might however be the catalyst of secularism. Which is not, I would think, something  that Leliana would want.

[mrcrazyman]

You need to see her unhardned ending then!

 

It is also said her changes forever fractured the Chantry we know.

 

Then it would appear that the Chantrys strength in the endings can change based on unknown choices. All the endings I got or seen from others with her unhardened has her making a peace and the Chantry remains strong. The only time I have seen the fractured Chantry is if her personal quest is skipped entirely and she is made Divine (thus no hardened/unhardened) and she ends up doing nothing towards the resisting sects.

[SgtSteel91]

You need to see her unhardned ending then!

 

She makes the Chantry welcome all races and she allows dissent clergy to make their own cults, basically creating "Protestant Chantry"

 

Its not like she declares the Chantry a secular entity, but she allows freedom of religion (at least doesnt enforces it).

 

It is also said her changes forever fractured the Chantry we know.

 

Did you miss the part where she talks with them about unity and still retain a unified Chantry (for now)?

[Broganisity]

Because I am the Herald of Motherlovin' Andraste.

 

Delivering fresh loaves of Justice.

 

Or something.

[frylock23]

It is a lot harder to make a case for secular humanism in a world that is demonstrably populated by gods and godlike beings. Part of the reason the philosophy has the foothold it has is because there is no good evidence for God or gods one way or the other. This simply isn't true in Thedas. After all, you spent time in the company of Fen'Harel himself, and Corypheus was one of the magisters who cracked the City.

[2_BR4ZIL_2]

I know of it, but it is still not secular. It might however be the catalyst of secularism. Which is not, I would think, something  that Leliana would want.

 

Well, you have to admit you cant change Thedas to secularism in a day. So having freedom of religion is the first step to that.

 

Leliana is pretty much in accordance to those freedoms, what she doesnt see is that the Chantry as a institution would become much less important with those things in motion.

 

Whatever her intentions were, she did promote a more free-thinking southern Thedas.

[2_BR4ZIL_2]

Did you miss the part where she talks with them about unity and still retain a unified Chantry (for now)?

 

No such thing happened in my game. Leliana took over and did nothing to promote unity, allowing splint off cults to do what they wanted.

 

Quite the epilogue i wanted, so i was very happy to see "protestant chantry" to surface.

 

Oh, i was anti-chantry with everyone, including her. I picked the "Let the Chantry Sink" option during her dialogue.

[mrcrazyman]

No such thing happened in my game. Leliana took over and did nothing to promote unity, allowing splint off cults to do what they wanted.

 

Quite the epilogue i wanted, so i was very happy to see "protestant chantry" to surface.

 

Did you do her personal quest? I ask because this is the only time on this forum or others that I have seen where that happens if you actually do her personal quest. The only time I have seen that ending is if her personal quest has been skipped.

[Andres Hendrix]

Humanism and science win by simply allowing civil liberties and free inquiry. You don't need to sleaze your way into someone else's institution to do it. That just makes secular people and the Chantry look like sh*t to me. 

 

It's competition and the free market of ideas that makes that kind of world happen. Not subverting other ideas.

I am confused, as nothing that I said was what you are talking about. It seems like you are making a straw man, which itself is inherently sleazy. I do not quite agree with 2_BR4ZIL_2. Secondly, pluralism only exists under a secular state. Pluralism does not exist under for example, a so-called "catholic humanism." Why? I think it would be patronizing to explain why (and this is where I depart from 2_BR4ZIL_2, as I don’t think a religious institution itself can support pluralism). That is why I say secular humanism, and not just humanism. As for the "free market", life and society are much more complicated than neo-libralism.

[Andres Hendrix]

I wasn't talking to you to begin with. It was Brazil. Wtf.

 

edit: Oh wait, you two are pretty intertwined. My issue is with his posts. You're part of the conversation however. But I wasn't directly addressing you. I don't even know what you did in the game.

Well you were quoting me, not him. I keep getting "StreetMagic" quoted you. lol

[2_BR4ZIL_2]

I am confused, as nothing that I said was what you are talking about. It seems like you are making a straw man, which itself is inherently sleazy. I do not quite agree with 2_BR4ZIL_2. Secondly, pluralism only exists under a secular state. Pluralism does not exist under for example, a so-called "catholic humanism." Why? I think it would be patronizing to explain why (and this is where I depart from 2_BR4ZIL_2, as I don’t think a religious institution itself can support pluralism). That is why I say secular humanism, and not just humanism. As for the "free market", life and society are much more complicated than neo-libralism.

 

Never said Leliana's Chantry was like that.

 

But you have to take into account the medieval era of the game, anything that promotes more free-thinking cant hurt in the way of secularism.

 

Also, yeah it seems i never got Leliana's quest, i did it in one playthrough, but i think i reloaded to re-do Blackwall's quest and simply forgot about her quest...

 

Well, i loved that ending, so i dont think i will be doing the quest anyway

[Andres Hendrix]

Ah.. I did. It was more to just interject in the general conversation with his ideas on humanism. Even though you were part of it.

 

I agree that religion can't truly be any of this. I happen to like a lot of "Catholic humanism", but I wouldn't call it pluralistic. For example, the actor Martin Sheen is one. He is one of those Catholics with a "consistent life" principle.. pacifism, against capital punishment, opposed to war. But when it comes down to it, he's still a very religious guy. With a specific worldview on why he believes this. Same with many Civil Rights era ministers.

From what I see, Sheen is more of a Buddhist than a Catholic. He does know of hell right (which no capital punishment could possibly compare if true)? He knows of Samuel 15 etc? lol I suppose the Church went all contradictory after Vatican 2 anyway. When they said:  “hey you masochistic little lambs, you know the doctrine of deicide, you know…that thing that we used for about 2000 years to claim that you are all guilty of a horrid and torturous death in the desert, that you would never want to commit—and nowadays you would feel obligated to stop...? You know how we all got a bit too, cranky with the Jews? Well we are getting rid of all that. An Easter pogrom here and there was all in good catholic, and Christian (in general) sport, but the holocaust thing, and the Nazi Pope was a bit much... So yeah, this is us shooting ourselves in the face; the jig is up. *gollum!* still secretly supporting fascism *gollum!*..." lol

I cannot wait for the day, when a secular commity led by the UN makes the Holy See pay for it all. Untill then I wait patiently.

[rpgfan321]

Well, I specifically said no to Leliana in terms of direct support as a candidate as well as not supporting Cassandra or Vivienne. 

 

I thought my Inquisitor can play as a neutral third-party and stay neutral... 

 

But the game decide to go with Leliana anyway. Meh. 

 

Can't they solve their own problems for a change.........

[Andres Hendrix]

Yes, he's a Vatican 2 type of Catholic. He named himself (his stage name) after Rev. Fulton J Sheen. A pretty big popularizer of those more groovy Vatican 2 ideals.

 

But he doesn't identify as Buddhist. Not sure what gives you impression.

"Consistent life" principle.. Pacifism, against capital punishment, opposed to war." Does not sound very catholic, and in fact sounds more Buddhist. It is still contradictory to Catholicism, because the church still maintains that hell is real, and that you can be absolved of your sins. Church: "So if do a bunch a ‘****’, and then stop adhering to that consistency, confess and then  live by our austere anti gay, anti contraceptive regime. If not, eternal hell fire for you!"

[AtreiyaN7]

As was pointed out in the game, there is a precedent for lay candidates who are not part of the Chantry hierarchy being elected Divine. I don't remember her name, but at least one such Divine was definitely mentioned. Also, Cassandra are Leliana directly served Divine Justinia, and most people seem to have respected Justinia quite a bit. I expect that by extension, people might feel that the Left Hand and the Right Hand might be of reasonably good character and are worthy of trust because Justinia placed a great deal of faith in both of them.

[herkles]

As a greek polytheist I am a strong supporter of pluralism. If someone goes to another god's temple, what bussiness is it of me as long as he is not trying to stop me from worship. I believe in many gods and goddesses, so if someone worships another one I don't see that as wrong; even if I myself do not worship that particular god or goddess. What I do not like is when I am told that what I worship is 'wrong' or not real. 

 

Anyways speaking of secularism, If a new elven kingdom arose in modern thedas. How would they handle religion? Most city elves tend to be andrastians to some degree or another, while the dalish follow the elven gods; though when one considers the revelations of the elven gods would they still be worshiped. Maybe they would stick with how the dalish view the gods, despite what the truth was?