436 réponses à ce sujet

[luism]

Hmm...
 
Post combat healing is an easy fix. Disingage combat, remove yourself from area and start healing. It's that simple. 
 
The question, of course, is how long to heal? Will the boss heal too?
 
Perhaps a better implementation method and also simple, is this (Bioware, this is for you):
 
1. Disingage combat and remove yourself from the immediate area.
2. Select MAP and place a gameplayer "return marker"
3. Fast travel to camp and heal+restock
4. Fast travel back to the marker... marker disapperas
 
Then the player can rinse and repeat at any time.
 
Coding this approach is simple as the marker is the same as your camp Flag (different icon)

Like a tp in the Diablo series? I think laidlaw is gonna hire you bro.

[Dee-Jay]

I definitely don't want to see healing spells return.

 

But I would like to see "out of combat" regeneration patched in. I just find it offputting that healing potions are the ONLY way to heal and that you can't even recover from minor wounds.

 

Keep the potions for in-combat healing but allow for natural ooc regeneration would be a nice middle ground. 

[Rekkampum]

I definitely don't want to see healing spells return.

 

But I would like to see "out of combat" regeneration patched in. I just find it offputting that healing potions are the ONLY way to heal and that you can't even recover from minor wounds.

 

Keep the potions for in-combat healing but allow for natural ooc regeneration would be a nice middle ground. 

They removed injuries from deaths, which is a major plus. If they'd have kept those I'd have been pissed.

[saladinbob]

This is pretty much what I am saying but with zero healing magic.  Things like heroic buffs, glyphs, and regen spells weren't healing.  They were just part of the creation school.  I would be totally pro Bioware bringing back the creation and entropy schools, but sans the single healing spell that it had.

 

I just don't think a heal-based specialization would work with the DAI without major upheavals of the game, which isn't going to happen.

 

Yes but we still want a Healing spell. At the very least move the focus-based Knight Enchanter healing spell in to a Creation Tree and make it Mana-based. The entire removal of Healing spells was an inelegant solution to a problem. There are better ways of handling it. It doesn't matter whether I have enough money, whether I have enough pots, whether I have the Healing Mist Grenade receipe, some of us want a Mage Healer back so we don't have to use those. The two could have a 100% stacking penalty so that using them together would be useless. I mean, please, just think about this for a moment. Bioware replaced a Healing spell that they felt over powered the team because of three/four Mage Healers with a Barrier spell that makes the target nigh on invulnerable if you have three or four Mages with Barrier spell. Where is the logic in that? Barrier has simply substituted Healing but the underlying issue remains.

[fireproof_boots]

 I mean, please, just think about this for a moment. Bioware replaced a Healing spell that they felt over powered the team because of three/four Mage Healers with a Barrier spell that makes the target nigh on invulnerable if you have three or four Mages with Barrier spell. Where is the logic in that? Barrier has simply substituted Healing but the underlying issue remains.

 

But it is distinctly different than healing because it can't be used out of combat and its only temporary - it doesn't last once the combat is over.  Even if healing spells were restricted to combat situations - the effects of them (the increase in HP) would last once the combat ended.  This is the issue: the damage, health, and combat situations Bioware developed were specifically balanced around not having the ability to heal outside of combat. This is my point, you are asking for ways to replenish health outside of combat with no limit, which this game is not made for. 

 

I'm trying to say this thread has 2 main points.  Point (1) is that limited out of combat healing is bad.  This point is moot, because the entire game has literally been created around this premise, it won't change.  Point (2) is that the removal of healing/support magic takes away an entire flavor of mage builds that people miss.  This is true and it would be awesome if they fixed it, which is why I was suggesting non-healing based creation/entropy magic.

 

However, there is one way I could see this working.  If you had a single heal spell that had limited charges between rests.  So say a creation tree, with all the trappings (glyphs, regen, etc..) and a single spell, heal, that only had 3 charges or something.  Essentially, an increase of your potion supply by 3 but via a mage spell.  Maybe it could be upgraded to 4 and obviously going back to camp or resting would recharge them all.  It would have to be the final spell in the tree so that you had to invest seriously to get there and sacrifice other trees.  This would be interesting because it could also serve as a replacement for the +4 potions perk if you wanted, which a fun trade-off.  

 

It could still be trivializing because you could have up to 4 mages which would essentially increase potion supply to 28 but you would have to sacrifice a lot of DPS to spec 4 mages out for it, so maybe I'd be ok with that.  But my main point is that asking for unlimited out of combat healing won't happen, it just doesn't fit the mechanics of this game.

[CedricO]

Im sorry but, if they think that removing heal spells made the game more challenging. They are wrong. All it does is force me to look at the health bars, and feel forced to keep my mage around for the silly shield thing eventhough i want a full melee party (old templars used to be able to heal). Dont force me to go back to base because of the damn potions. Give me heal spells .......

[fireproof_boots]

Im sorry but, if they think that removing heal spells made the game more challenging. They are wrong. All it does is force me to look at the health bars, and feel forced to keep my mage around for the silly shield thing eventhough i want a full melee party (old templars used to be able to heal). Dont force me to go back to base because of the damn potions. Give me heal spells .......

 

 

Templar spec has never been able to heal.

[TristynTrine]

Wouldn't mind if we didn't get a heal spell. I just want more variety of spells. Some guy had very good ideas for the classes in that "Why are people against mage diversity" or something thread. I want more than elemental spells and a barrier. So disappointing they did this to magic.

[saladinbob]

But it is distinctly different than healing because it can't be used out of combat and its only temporary - it doesn't last once the combat is over.  Even if healing spells were restricted to combat situations - the effects of them (the increase in HP) would last once the combat ended.  This is the issue: the damage, health, and combat situations Bioware developed were specifically balanced around not having the ability to heal outside of combat. This is my point, you are asking for ways to replenish health outside of combat with no limit, which this game is not made for. 

 

I'm trying to say this thread has 2 main points.  Point (1) is that limited out of combat healing is bad.  This point is moot, because the entire game has literally been created around this premise, it won't change.  Point (2) is that the removal of healing/support magic takes away an entire flavor of mage builds that people miss.  This is true and it would be awesome if they fixed it, which is why I was suggesting non-healing based creation/entropy magic.

 

However, there is one way I could see this working.  If you had a single heal spell that had limited charges between rests.  So say a creation tree, with all the trappings (glyphs, regen, etc..) and a single spell, heal, that only had 3 charges or something.  Essentially, an increase of your potion supply by 3 but via a mage spell.  Maybe it could be upgraded to 4 and obviously going back to camp or resting would recharge them all.  It would have to be the final spell in the tree so that you had to invest seriously to get there and sacrifice other trees.  This would be interesting because it could also serve as a replacement for the +4 potions perk if you wanted, which a fun trade-off.  

 

It could still be trivializing because you could have up to 4 mages which would essentially increase potion supply to 28 but you would have to sacrifice a lot of DPS to spec 4 mages out for it, so maybe I'd be ok with that.  But my main point is that asking for unlimited out of combat healing won't happen, it just doesn't fit the mechanics of this game.

 

Barrier is Temporary in exactly the same way Healing was temporary. Healing was claimed to be over powered because you could have multiple characters spamming heal but you can have multiple characters spamming Barrier in the game. If Bioware wanted to prevent over use of a particular spell they shouldn't have had so many mage characters but like so very much else in Inquisition, it was not thought through.

[fireproof_boots]

Barrier is Temporary in exactly the same way Healing was temporary. Healing was claimed to be over powered because you could have multiple characters spamming heal but you can have multiple characters spamming Barrier in the game. If Bioware wanted to prevent over use of a particular spell they shouldn't have had so many mage characters but like so very much else in Inquisition, it was not thought through.

 

But they didn't just want that.  How is barrier temporary in the same way healing is??  That doesn't make any sense.  Healing with purely mana-based spells lets you re-fill to full health after every fight.  That is what Bioware didn't want and that is why they used barrier.  Would you be ok with a healing spell that had limited uses between rests?

[Emmy]

Add me to the camp that wants Healing restored. What did the mages get stupid since DA:2?  It's been established cannon that mages can heal (See Anders!!!. Personally, I think the new healing system is a rip off, as much as being limited to the number of potions I can carry. 

 

Seriously, if anyone can post a link to an article explaining why the healing system is so restrictive in this game, I'd appreciate it.

 

Regards,

Emmy

[saladinbob]

But they didn't just want that.  How is barrier temporary in the same way healing is??  That doesn't make any sense.  Healing with purely mana-based spells lets you re-fill to full health after every fight.  That is what Bioware didn't want and that is why they used barrier.  Would you be ok with a healing spell that had limited uses between rests?

 

I'm not entirely sure this is a serious question, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and an answer. Healing restores X amount of HP then ceases to operate. Barrier prevents X amount of HP loss and then ceases to operate. Neither are sustained spells, both spells achieve identical results with identical consequences but from different angles - damage prevention rather than health restoration the end result being a stable health bar. Barrier can be spammed in an overlapping pattern which allows near constant damage mitigation in a way Rock Armour never did (since it was self applied and sustained as opposed to Barrier being AOE targeted). In this Barrier works no differently to Healing because with multiple Healers, you can apply overlapping healing to operate as quasi damage mitigation. In short, Barrier has not fixed the underlying issue used as a justification for taking out Healing magic.

[fireproof_boots]

I'm not entirely sure this is a serious question, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and an answer. Healing restores X amount of HP then ceases to operate. Barrier prevents X amount of HP loss and then ceases to operate. Neither are sustained spells, both spells achieve identical results with identical consequences but from different angles - damage prevention rather than health restoration the end result being a stable health bar. Barrier can be spammed in an overlapping pattern which allows near constant damage mitigation in a way Rock Armour never did (since it was self applied and sustained as opposed to Barrier being AOE targeted). In this Barrier works no differently to Healing because with multiple Healers, you can apply overlapping healing to operate as quasi damage mitigation. In short, Barrier has not fixed the underlying issue used as a justification for taking out Healing magic.

 

Ok and I can't tell if you're serious but I'll also explain.  I get that barrier and healing both let you overlap damage prevention and stay alive, that is obvious.  That is why it is in the game.  

 

Now the key, and clear, difference is after the fight.  If you lose HP in a fight healing lets you get it back.  Barrier does not.  That is the difference.  If you lose half your HP in a fight, heal during the fight to stay alive, then after the fight you have all your HP.  If you lose half your HP in a fight and use a barrier to stay alive during the fight, then after the fight you have half your HP.  This is why the healing is less temporary.  The second massive difference is that healing spells let you refill health outside of combat.  Barrier, clearly, does not.

 

Now the important part: healing magic was not removed because you could overlap heals to stay alive.  At all.  Healing magic was removed so that you had a limited amount of healing during a quest.  This was the entire point.  This is why health regen was removed.  This is why mana-based healing magic was removed.  They then added barrier to provide the damage mitigation you're talking about without letting you refill your health.  If they were actually identical then people wouldn't be complaining about running out of potions on quests, or having to return to camps to restock potions.

 

The developers of this game decided that it was best for the game play and balance if you had to return to camps to rest if you ran out of a limited supply of healing capability.  The entire game is built around this: this why you cannot have mana-based healing back in the game.  

 

So I'll ask again: would you be ok with a limited-use healing spell that you had to return to camp to recharge?

[Vik]

It's fine the way it is in singelplayer in multiplayer though they should add more hp or shield regenerating skills each class should have atleast 1. Rejuvenation potion is meant for out of combat use.

[zeypher]

Honestly no point in reinventing the wheel, you want to balance healing make all healing heal over time, done. Infact HOT makes more sense than instant full HP top up you have going with potions anyways. 

[Sidney]

I really don't get why people are so emotionally attached to healers. I don't see nearly as much whining about "where is my ranger!" going on. Is this a bunch of MMO types who just can't let go of the roles they need people for in a game?

 

The game isn't balanced for healing and you can't balance the game for healing. DAO was abysmally balanced for healing - endless potions + endless healing spells was one of many flippin' reasons that game was a joke at any difficulty level. BG was maybe more balanced but that was because you could only cast X spells per day so that slowed down healing spam and I don't think anyone wants those days back.  Unless the combat model moves to more of a permadeath type solution the only thing any given encounter can threaten you with is attrition and with healing it can't even threaten that.

[Sidney]

And I don't get why "people" are whining so much when I give feedback to Bioware. Just because you (or BammBamm) don't share my view I don't see why you need to go all personal and raise questions such as if the pro-healers are a "bunch of MMO types who just can't let go".
 
Add something constructive to the discussion, or simply accept the fact that not everyone in this world is like you.

The question about balance, the second half of my post you cleverly clipped? They tried to "fix" healing by having cool down on potions in DA2 but the problem is healing magic. As long as you have regenerating mana you have a functionally endless supply of healing. You can't really control healing spam at the magic level without doing something really drastic. At the potion level cool downs and item limits, which also break lore and common, can limit potions but magic remains a balancing problem. If combat is attritional and I think Bioware has accepted the reality that their combat isn't challenging in the you are going to die sense of an actual tactical game so it has to be dangerous by thousand cuts threats.

The thing is if you check pre-launch I was solidly opposed to healing removal because I hated BG combat and the resting and useless random encounters. I feared a lot of backtracking and wasted time in DAI. I give Bioware a ton of credit because the system they developed doesn't need healing, it would break it even more than it is already broken to add it in. Adding healing isn't a priority, toning down the massive edge crafting gives you is a much higher priority item for DAI2.

[mutantspicy]

To me the biggest offense is not about balance or healing or any of that nonsense.  I never thought that spirit healer was a useful spec anyway.  The problem I have. Is that in DAO the Magic of Thedas was introduced to us.  The schools were Primal, Creation, Spirit, and Entropy.  Now we have 3 elemental schools and spirit still remains.  That's a straight up sin.  You don't just change the schools of Magic in a realm that you've created.  Now I get that there are Primal, Creation, Entropy type spells within the elemental schools provided. But that's not how Magic was defined to us in Thedas.  And now we're supposed to just accept a completely new arrangement of magic, without any explanation.  

[Sidney]

Apologies for snipping the rest of your post, I see now that you're making some valid points in the last part. TBH I didn't even read the rest of your post originally because you pissed me so much off when you started attacking our perspectives in a personal manner, "bunch of MMO types who just can't let go ".
 
It has nothing to do with not being able to let go. I'm not "whining" about many of the other changes in Inquisition (welcoming changes such as semi-open world since I see that as an improvement upon Origins, and most certainly DA2).
 
Removal of healing spells I don't see as an improvement, it's a simplification and an easy solution to the spam-heal problem.
 
"You can't really control healing spam at the magic level without doing something really drastic "  I agree, and IMO Bioware should have made a drastic re-balance of healing spells, instead of pretty much removing a whole class.

It is a simplification. A faster path through the mud but really you only have o many options at the spell level.

To me to handle things you would either gave to have a super long cool down so both in and out of combat it was limited...but that solution basically leaves healing crippled.

The other would be to make healing temporary. You assume that serious healing takes more concentrated effort than what you can whip up in the field. You might be able stitch up someone in the field but it isn't "really" healed and once the spell expires the health plunges back. This is sort of what barrier is now "temporary" health but after the fact not before.

[fireproof_boots]

 

"You can't really control healing spam at the magic level without doing something really drastic "  I agree, and IMO Bioware should have made a drastic re-balance of healing spells, instead of pretty much removing a whole class.

 

That is true, and a valid opinion.  I think, though, that people asking for bioware to reintroduce mana-based healing and/or out of combat healing regen into this game after the fact are being unrealistic.  It would take literally a re-balancing of every encounter in the game, which seems like a time commitment that is unreasonable to ask.  I think that an ok compromise would be a healing spell that functioned exactly like potions (could be used 3 times between rests) and then maybe a more elegant solution in the next installment, whenever that is.