436 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

Yes making healing spells temporary would sort of be just what barrier is now. Making cooldowns longer on standard healing spells could maybe work, but I'm not sure that's the best solution either. This could make some players kite the enemy while just waiting for the cooldown to finish, plus the party who the brought a healer would always be able to heal up full after a battle, meaning most parties would want to bring a healer along.
 
A downside to Origins and DA2 IMO was that many felt they had to bring a Wynne or an Anders with them just because they could heal. I want the healer to be optional, so that those players who want to rely on potions and barrier e.g. can do that, and those of us who want to bring a healer can choose to do so :wizard]

The problem with both is that, really, who wouldn't choose heal and barrier. You could split by specialization but since specialization doesn't happen until mid game you either have access to both or neither until much later than it should be unless, and I don't see why this would be bad, specializations open up early game rather than mid game.

[fireproof_boots]

 

 

I would love to see a DLC with a healer companion   But no it does not seem likely with the current combat balanced around no standard healing spells.

 

Your compromise idea of healing spells working like potions (or as Sidney also posted with x no. of spells per day) seems to me the best solution. I wouldn't change every spell in game to be x no. per day, only the standard healing spells like Heal, Regeneration, Mass Heal, Mass Regeneration. I think it would make sense both as a combat design and with respect to the lore we learned in Origins and DA2 (with healing spells not being your everyday magic).

 

An optional specialization that either reduces DPS for the mage, or prevents most damage spells from being cast, would mean not every group would pay the price of bringing a healer. Plus the healer should only be able to cast each healing spell X no. of times based upon the level of the caster (sort of like a cleric in BG). If not in a future DLC then I hope to see it in a future Dragon Age

 

Definitely agree that only healing spells should be cast between rests.  To be honest I doubt they'd give you heal, regen, mass regen, etc... I think at best you could hope for a single healing spell.  Otherwise the increase in effective 'potion supply' would be too much.  I think a simple way would be to add a creation tree, with all the fun support themes like glyphs/heroic aura that ended with a single heal spell at the end.  The heal spell could be used, say, 3 times/day with an upgrade that allowed it be used 4 times/day.  This could also be used as an alternative to picking up the 'more potions' inquisition perk (or you could get both of them if you found staying alive difficult).  

 

I would also be ok with maybe, like a group heal spell that brought everyone to full health but could only be used outside of combat and only once between rests.  

[Evaderik]

its too late to add it back now the game is release already.

"Patch" (e.t.c.), no?

 

[Hexoduen]

So I come back to the forum only to see that the spirit healer is still dead, and have been replaced by mind-numbing features such as an AoE healing grenade and a revival 'kneel-and-hold-button-mechanic' for everyone OMG WTF IS THIS!?

 

Why don't you just in DA4 give all dwarves wings and have them fly around on pink elephants!?!?!

 

It's not like story and lore in Dragon Age is important, right?

 

 

Disclaimer: I find Inquisition to be amazing, but that does not mean I accept all the changes blindly.

[eyezonlyii]

Isn't heal "x number of times a day" functionally the same as a focus? I don't see how it isn't bec uase at least with a focus you can build it back up as you play, instead if with a set number having to race back to a camp like you do now for potions. And you can use a focus outside of battle. As I brought up before, every heal spell (not creation obviously) is in the game minus a single burst heal, either through spells or passives. What could have been done however, is give each tree a focus ability: resurgence for spirit, firestorm for fire, blizzard for ice and static cage for lightening. Give rift KE haste, RM aoe crushing prison, Necro an actual raise dead, and warrior and rogue trees skills as appropriate.

[Winged Silver]

I wonder what sorts of alternatives could be added in, if they choose to really leave behind the healing magic...

 

I know I was horrified when they first announced no more healing (I'm "that person" who spammed 100+ potions and used Wynne and my three tankiest tanks for the High Dragon >_>), but I can appreciate the way it forces you to plan ahead how you'll do fights and whatnot.

 

I don't know if I can say I liked having to plan, but it was an interesting experience, never the less. I think making healing magic trade off on combat prowess seems like a fair trade off. Kinda wish Bioware had a testing ground for this kind of stuff. I wonder how the mechanics would work with only three hitters going at once. Probably fine, but I'm curious ^.^

[saladinbob]

The problem is a two fold one. Been playing through Mass Effect trilogy again recently. No healing 'magic' in them but they get the balance right. Out of combat regeneration and plenty of medigel around for you to keep on top of healing with. Inquisition fails on both accounts. Lack of out of combat regeneration coupled with a scarcity of healing pots forces you in to the monstrously boring farming or regular trips back to camp. If they had gone full on Mass Effect and had regen and plenty of pots around, immersion aside, the removal of healing magic wouldn't be that bad from a gameplay perspective.

 

From an immersion perspective, unfortunately we can forget about that. Bioware's games have been getting less and less RPG-like for a number of years now, with more emphasis placed upon the action and less placed on the role play elements. The all action style works fantastically well for Mass Effect because it's a shooter at its heart. Not so well when the game is a hack and slash genre like the Dragon Age franchise. Anyway, if we accept no healing magic because of a lack of RPG elements in the game design, the simple solution is to take the middle ground and restore regeneration and repopulate the maps with a greater number of more logically placed healing pots than there are currently. It would allow the game to flow a lot better than it does right now.

[Hexoduen]

Isn't heal "x number of times a day" functionally the same as a focus? I don't see how it isn't bec uase at least with a focus you can build it back up as you play, instead if with a set number having to race back to a camp like you do now for potions. And you can use a focus outside of battle. As I brought up before, every heal spell (not creation obviously) is in the game minus a single burst heal, either through spells or passives. What could have been done however, is give each tree a focus ability: resurgence for spirit, firestorm for fire, blizzard for ice and static cage for lightening. Give rift KE haste, RM aoe crushing prison, Necro an actual raise dead, and warrior and rogue trees skills as appropriate.

 

"x number of times per day" is not the same as focus.

Think Baldur's Gate 2 where I as a cleric could cast 8 'Cure light wounds', 6 'Cure medium wounds' etc. before combat. Focus is very different in that we need to kill stuff in order to get it, that makes it not work for standard healing spells, it's too unreliable and limited in this regard.

 

With the removal of most healing spells (heal, regenerate, group heal), the bread and butter for healers like myself is gone. My class is very boring to play, and seeing the unique revival spell turned into 'just-hold-a-button-for-everyone' pisses me off

[eyezonlyii]

"x number of times per day" is not the same as focus.
Think Baldur's Gate 2 where I as a cleric could cast 8 'Cure light wounds', 6 'Cure medium wounds' etc. before combat. Focus is very different in that we need to kill stuff in order to get it, that makes it not work for standard healing spells, it's too unreliable and limited in this regard.
 
With the removal of most healing spells (heal, regenerate, group heal), the bread and butter for healers like myself is gone. My class is very boring to play, and seeing the unique revival spell turned into 'just-hold-a-button-for-everyone' pisses me off

What I'm saying is that focus acts like heal x times a day because of it's limited use. So it sucks that you have to kill things (I guess) but there are ways to boost focus gain so you can use it more often. Trust, one thing that would help is it choose what level of focus you wanted to use, instead of using the entire bar all the time, but the fact is having heal x times is the same as 8 potions. You haven't changed gameplay, just cosmetics.
On your last point, there is a revival spell, you don't have to go pick everyone up, though I do scratch my head at why that's a thing. Regenerate isn't gone, it's just a side effect of the one massive heal spell in the game, so again all the spells are there minus a single burst heal, they've just been folded into fewer spells with less access.

[Sidney]

From an immersion perspective, unfortunately we can forget about that. Bioware's games have been getting less and less RPG-like for a number of years now, with more emphasis placed upon the action and less placed on the role play elements. The all action style works fantastically well for Mass Effect because it's a shooter at its heart. Not so well when the game is a hack and slash genre like the Dragon Age franchise. Anyway, if we accept no healing magic because of a lack of RPG elements in the game design, the simple solution is to take the middle ground and restore regeneration and repopulate the maps with a greater number of more logically placed healing pots than there are currently. It would allow the game to flow a lot better than it does right now.

 

This has nothing to do with RPG elements. If anything the DAO model really eliminated the need for a lot of RPG elements. i still find it funny so many people had to have a healer along when potion spam was light years more effective in DAO. DA2 the healer was far more useful once they put potions on cooldown which oddly didn't get as much griping but makes far less sense.

 

Regeneration isn't a solution to the problem because it makes exploration of the world trivial. Bioware is basically "right" about what they are trying to solve. Their games, going all the way back, have non-dangerous combat. There is no other way to say it. They do not put the Genlock in room 23A of the Deep Roads to kill you.  Those combats are basically nothing more than ways to gain XP in DAO. They want to create some sort of tension in combat and death isn't a viable form of tension for them to create - this isn't XCOM in other words - now avoiding a wound is the tension because you realize that those are going to aggregate over time. In other words, you might not be worried Bear AC3456 is gonna kill you but you are at least worried he might damage you enough that  the next bear could wipe your party before you get to the forest chateau or you will be so abused once you get there you can't complete your mission. It does add some element of risk back into the game.

 

I'm not entirely happy with the way it works but returning regen or healing magic makes a game that isn't too difficult once you get the mechanics down - and especially not once you get to the middle levels-  wholly trivial.

[Hexoduen]

What I'm saying is that focus acts like heal x times a day because of it's limited use. So it sucks that you have to kill things (I guess) but there are ways to boost focus gain so you can use it more often. Trust, one thing that would help is it choose what level of focus you wanted to use, instead of using the entire bar all the time, but the fact is having heal x times is the same as 8 potions. You haven't changed gameplay, just cosmetics.
On your last point, there is a revival spell, you don't have to go pick everyone up, though I do scratch my head at why that's a thing. Regenerate isn't gone, it's just a side effect of the one massive heal spell in the game, so again all the spells are there minus a single burst heal, they've just been folded into fewer spells with less access.

 

Here's the thing:  I play as the healer.  In Origins and DA2 I build a spirit healer and then leave dmg dealing to my party. I have a lot of spells to choose from (heal, group heal, regenerate, group regenerate, healing aura, etc.).

And I would welcome a limited use of healing spells. BG has a limit of "heal x times per day" and it only makes the healer even more interesting since you have to conserve spells for the right moment. In BG I also have a lot of spells to choose from, just as in Origins and DA2, so even though there's a limit it's still a very fun and challenging class to play (on Nightmare).

 

"fewer spells with less access" yes indeed, but too few and too limited to make the healer a viable class.  I find playing as the healer in Inquisition extremely boring, my favorite class has been replaced by a spammable barrier and potions

 

 

This has nothing to do with RPG elements. If anything the DAO model really eliminated the need for a lot of RPG elements. i still find it funny so many people had to have a healer along when potion spam was light years more effective in DAO. DA2 the healer was far more useful once they put potions on cooldown which oddly didn't get as much griping but makes far less sense.

 

Regeneration isn't a solution to the problem because it makes exploration of the world trivial. Bioware is basically "right" about what they are trying to solve. Their games, going all the way back, have non-dangerous combat. There is no other way to say it. They do not put the Genlock in room 23A of the Deep Roads to kill you.  Those combats are basically nothing more than ways to gain XP in DAO. They want to create some sort of tension in combat and death isn't a viable form of tension for them to create - this isn't XCOM in other words - now avoiding a wound is the tension because you realize that those are going to aggregate over time. In other words, you might not be worried Bear AC3456 is gonna kill you but you are at least worried he might damage you enough that  the next bear could wipe your party before you get to the forest chateau or you will be so abused once you get there you can't complete your mission. It does add some element of risk back into the game.

 

I'm not entirely happy with the way it works but returning regen or healing magic makes a game that isn't too difficult once you get the mechanics down - and especially not once you get to the middle levels-  wholly trivial.

 

I think BG has dangerous combat, and I love it   You have a limited use of spells so you need to use them at the right target at the right moment, and if you don't, you're wasting spells which will leave you vulnerable later on. Get interupted while casting a spell and it's also a waste

One of your party members died? Have a nice trip back to the city so a priest can put good ol' Minsc back together. And the way it scales is perfect, 'cause later on you can cast a revival spell yourself, that low-level priest you brought along got better and has now reached a high enough level to actually bring people back from the dead. Not like in Inquisition where everyone can revive just by holding a button

 

I agree that Bioware is basically "right" about what they're trying to solve. Origins and DA2 had too much spammable healing, and regeneration after combat made exploration trivial and less dangerous. But I hate the way Bioware did it, since they killed my favorite class in the process.

 

They originally said they wanted to go back and look at the old Bioware 'chest' for ideas in Inquisition, well regarding healing they should have taken a deep long look at BG. Instead they took the easy route of butchering healing spells and leaving us with primarily 1 boring spammable barrier spell  *yawn* So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? ... That's basically how I play the healer in Inquisition, it's boring, and it stinks

[TheOgre]

I disagree healing magic and out of combat regeneration is NOT needed to complete the game in any difficulty and if you fast travel much even after Skyhold you're doing something wrong. I havent fast traveled to a camp for potions since like level 6 or something on nightmare.

 

Healing magic and out of combat regeneration just takes away what is unique to this game compared to the previous ones, also barriers, potions, healing magic AND out of combat regeneration? Well hello 4 mages groups like all the time. 

 

Adding it as a choice might work but lets be reasonable here...who wouldn't take that choice when its obviously more powerful? If you have trouble with the game and think its too hard just tone down the difficulty.

 

How people can complain about the tactical aspect of the game and then ask for the ability to just faceroll it is beyond me. With 2 mages if you micromanage barrier usage its already possible to take close to 0 damage even from dragons. Now if you add healing magic to that well you might as well watch the game's story on youtube.

 

So you'd rather limit those that don't agree with the system as it is? I don't think guard is a good system either by the way. I'd rather if they try to go to damage mitigation, you'd go the avoidance route altogether with good ol' bg rules. But hey, DAI couldn't be any further from BG than the previous ones.

[Jeffry]

I personally prefer healing the damage done to my party to preventing it with barriers or guard, which I find more boring. And yeah, the backtracking earlier in the game sucked big time. I was pissed at the changes done to combat and UI so much, that I literally had to force myself to continue playing the game for the sake of story and my companions, which I love, but it was more than often tedious to get to those good parts.

 

I would very much like to see the healing spells again, but is should be done more as in DA2 and less as in DAO. In DA2 it was way more balanced, you couldn't just spam it every 5 secs and either keep chugging unlimited cheap mana potions or just bring OP Wynne as your healer. In DA2 you even had to use healing potions, in DAO the only time I had to use them was either when running some HC fan-made dungeons or when fighting the Harvester in GoA DLC (since my character was warrior and the healer golem sucked at healing). Also in DA2 you really had to cast the heal yourself at the best possible times, you also didn't have potions with virtually no cooldown, in DAO you could just let the AI heal you all day long.

 

So to summarize it: please BioWare, bring back healing instead of barriers and guard, but look more at DA2 than DAO for balancing it right. As DAO has done many things really well, balance was not one of them.

[Rizilliant]

+1

 

If nothing else, for lore purposes.. Dont tell me "all the healing mages are helping sick individuals".. BS. I'M a mage! And i refuse to believe Solas knows no Healing magic!

 

This reasoning that "everyone felt obligated to bring a resto mage" is pure idiocy.. I played Origins, and DA2 with, and without a resto mage!  Now you do indeed bring a barrier mage, AND a guard warrior!

[KaiserShep]

I personally prefer healing the damage done to my party to preventing it with barriers or guard, which I find more boring. And yeah, the backtracking earlier in the game sucked big time. I was pissed at the changes done to combat and UI so much, that I literally had to force myself to continue playing the game for the sake of story and my companions, which I love, but it was more than often tedious to get to those good parts.

 

I would very much like to see the healing spells again, but is should be done more as in DA2 and less as in DAO. In DA2 it was way more balanced, you couldn't just spam it every 5 secs and either keep chugging unlimited cheap mana potions or just bring OP Wynne as your healer. In DA2 you even had to use healing potions, in DAO the only time I had to use them was either when running some HC fan-made dungeons or when fighting the Harvester in GoA DLC (since my character was warrior and the healer golem sucked at healing). Also in DA2 you really had to cast the heal yourself at the best possible times, you also didn't have potions with virtually no cooldown, in DAO you could just let the AI heal you all day long.

 

So to summarize it: please BioWare, bring back healing instead of barriers and guard, but look more at DA2 than DAO for balancing it right. As DAO has done many things really well, balance was not one of them.

 

Yeah, I think that in general, DA2 had the most satisfying method. Even when traveling around with a high level Bethany or Anders, my group wasn't suddenly invincible and mana could be drained very quickly. I can't help but feel that DA2 got so much hate on so many levels that BioWare tried very hard to get away from anything associated with it, even the stuff that was actually good.

 

If I had to choose the method of combat with which to create a basic template for a new DA, it would definitely be DA2. I'd certainly bring back Arcane Warrior or something like Knight-Enchanter though, but without the barriers.

[Rawgrim]

+1

 

If nothing else, for lore purposes.. Dont tell me "all the healing mages are helping sick individuals".. BS. I'M a mage! And i refuse to believe Solas knows no Healing magic!

 

This reasoning that "everyone felt obligated to bring a resto mage" is pure idiocy.. I played Origins, and DA2 with, and without a resto mage!  Now you do indeed bring a barrier mage, AND a guard warrior!

 

But but but....awesome gameplay and tactical choices?!

[Jeffry]

Yeah, I think that in general, DA2 had the most satisfying method. Even when traveling around with a high level Bethany or Anders, my group wasn't suddenly invincible and mana could be drained very quickly. I can't help but feel that DA2 got so much hate on so many levels that BioWare tried very hard to get away from anything associated with it, even the stuff that was actually good.

 

If I had to choose the method of combat with which to create a basic template for a new DA, it would definitely be DA2. I'd certainly bring back Arcane Warrior or something like Knight-Enchanter though, but without the barriers.

 

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. While the game wasn't perfect by far, it wasn't that bad as many people are portraying it to be. The game suffered a great deal from really short development time, but it still managed to improve some aspects of DAO, combat and balance being one of them. Too bad lots of people didn't gave them even the smallest credit for that. It indeed seems BioWare tried to get as far away from it as possible and in my opinion it wasn't a good move. I personally was hoping for a blend of DA2 and DAO with a maybe little bit of Skyrim flavor (since they talked about how much they loved that game), but I can't say I am much satisfied with the final ratio between these items. Btw I really don't envy BioWare, it is almost impossible to please some of their fans, let alone all of them

[Sidney]

Here's the thing:  I play as the healer.  In Origins and DA2 I build a spirit healer and then leave dmg dealing to my party. I have a lot of spells to choose from (heal, group heal, regenerate, group regenerate, healing aura, etc.).
And I would welcome a limited use of healing spells. BG has a limit of "heal x times per day" and it only makes the healer even more interesting since you have to conserve spells for the right moment. In BG I also have a lot of spells to choose from, just as in Origins and DA2, so even though there's a limit it's still a very fun and challenging class to play (on Nightmare).
 
"fewer spells with less access" yes indeed, but too few and too limited to make the healer a viable class.  I find playing as the healer in Inquisition extremely boring, my favorite class has been replaced by a spammable barrier and potions
 
 

 
I think BG has dangerous combat, and I love it   You have a limited use of spells so you need to use them at the right target at the right moment, and if you don't, you're wasting spells which will leave you vulnerable later on. Get interupted while casting a spell and it's also a waste
One of your party members died? Have a nice trip back to the city so a priest can put good ol' Minsc back together. And the way it scales is perfect, 'cause later on you can cast a revival spell yourself, that low-level priest you brought along got better and has now reached a high enough level to actually bring people back from the dead. Not like in Inquisition where everyone can revive just by holding a button
 
I agree that Bioware is basically "right" about what they're trying to solve. Origins and DA2 had too much spammable healing, and regeneration after combat made exploration trivial and less dangerous. But I hate the way Bioware did it, since they killed my favorite class in the process.
 
They originally said they wanted to go back and look at the old Bioware 'chest' for ideas in Inquisition, well regarding healing they should have taken a deep long look at BG. Instead they took the easy route of butchering healing spells and leaving us with primarily 1 boring spammable barrier spell  *yawn* So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? So I press 1 now? ... That's basically how I play the healer in Inquisition, it's boring, and it stinks

BG1 had some danger, mostly first half of the game. Hobgoblins with poison arrows, at level 1? Noooooooo! By BG2 they were XP feasts for battles. The limited healing casting made difference in the feeling of danger -- also you had epically fewer potions than in DAO in BG2 for example. You were basically playing the DAI model where you were being worn down by the death of a thousand cuts. DAI does have the closest feel to BG where I feel like I need to be careful. There were a lot of "f it" moments in DAO and DA2 as far as combat went because I could make it right immediately afterwards.

You might not like spamming barrier but spirit healers were basically spamming heal spells so the effect is mostly the same just which bar are you filling up the red one or the blue one. I think more than healing spells what is missing from the quasi-clerics are all the buff spells where you can feel like a helper instead of a killer.

[Sidney]

+1
 
If nothing else, for lore purposes.. Dont tell me "all the healing mages are helping sick individuals".. BS. I'M a mage! And i refuse to believe Solas knows no Healing magic!
 
This reasoning that "everyone felt obligated to bring a resto mage" is pure idiocy.. I played Origins, and DA2 with, and without a resto mage!  Now you do indeed bring a barrier mage, AND a guard warrior!

You didn't but of course there was nothing, and this does bother me a bit, that kept you from just dropping a few skill points into healing for anyone like Morrigan or my blood mage. Might be nice is certain specializations or trees prevented use of others for example.

People keep discussing on healing spells but the reality it DAI was an overall assault on all forms of healing. No spells, no out of combat regen, 8 potions. That's a big change. The question isn't healing spells as much as what is the role of healing. Do we expect any random fight to kill us? If we do, then we should expect to heal. That isn't the way really any Bioware game has worked where trash mobs fights tend not to be all that dangerous. If we accept/expect that combat is less than lethal on a regular basis then limits on healing make a ton of sense.

[sjsharp2011]

just add it in the option screen for auto regen if you want it turn it on if not keep it as it is after battles.This is probably the best option here the only time for me this has really become an issue is when fighting the high dragons tbh and I'm finding it's not that big a deal even then as after those fights I've often gone back to Skyhold to put the materials I got from killing them to use.

[Archerwarden]

revival 'kneel-and-hold-button-mechanic' for everyone[/b] OMG WTF IS THIS!? :blink

So glad I'm not the only one doesn't like the Revival action. It's an mmo action and shouldn't be in the SP game at all. With it there is not much need for a health bar- just revive your downed player and the player gets partial health back, use KE and your all set to go. Silly really.

[Hexoduen]

BG1 had some danger, mostly first half of the game. Hobgoblins with poison arrows, at level 1? Noooooooo! By BG2 they were XP feasts for battles. The limited healing casting made difference in the feeling of danger -- also you had epically fewer potions than in DAO in BG2 for example. You were basically playing the DAI model where you were being worn down by the death of a thousand cuts. DAI does have the closest feel to BG where I feel like I need to be careful. There were a lot of "f it" moments in DAO and DA2 as far as combat went because I could make it right immediately afterwards.

You might not like spamming barrier but spirit healers were basically spamming heal spells so the effect is mostly the same just which bar are you filling up the red one or the blue one. I think more than healing spells what is missing from the quasi-clerics are all the buff spells where you can feel like a helper instead of a killer.

 

Guess we'll have to disagree.

I think there is a world of difference between spamming one barrier spell over and over again, and having multiple spells to choose from as I progress through the game.  Origins and DA2 weren't perfect, the balance was all over the place in Origins, and while it was better in DA2, I'd still prefer healing spells as in BG2. I like that challenge of not having unlimited healing spells.

 

Inquisition is not a challenge as a healer though, it's just pressing barrier repeatedly, having companions chug down potions, plus, everyone can revive