180 réponses à ce sujet

[Corwyn]

Much like Iron Bull; Sten is up front about his background and his crimes.  Sten more so in his own way.  If you go to ask for the key the Mother also tells you his crimes up front.  Sten is also remorseful and admits fully that he is at fault.  Rotting in the cage was his way of atoning and accepting his fate.  You can choose to give Sten a chance to get his "soul" back.  You can also leave Sten in his cage and walk away letting the Blight eventually take him.  As the game develops you learn more about Sten and his motivations but it never contradicts what he's revealed.

 

Zevran's has much deeper stories to tell about his first kills and how the various deaths shaped him.  I wouldn't go so far as to say he happily kills people indiscriminately, but he's lately only taken the contracts of dangerous people.  The Hero of Ferelden was definitely painted in that light by Loghain.  He's an assassin working for the Antivan Crows (or freelance depending on how your story unfolded).  Assassin's can choose who to kill or not kill.  Zev is haunted by his past but he never hides it from you.  It may take time for him to open up but he doesn't lie.  You meet him in DA:O as he is trying to murder you.  At that moment you choose to recruit him or kill him.  You have the option to just kill him and move on with your game.

 

As for the events of Dragon Age: Those Who Speak and Isabela's confession of throwing slaves overboard.  If this series has taught me anything it's simply never trust what Varric or Isabela have to say.  Especially at face value.  She was being interrogated by Rassan and threatened with Qamek.  If Isabela was forced to take Qamek she would have been a mindless follower of the Qun.  I would most definitely weave a story of sympathy to catch her captor off guard... as she did.  Do you see her eye in that last panel.  That's exactly what Isabela wanted to happen.  To let Rassan get close so she could strike and free Varric and Alistair.  The top panel was a flashback and the bottom panels were how Isabela was presenting herself to her interrogator after telling the story. 

Since that story happened out of any game that anyone could play and in a Dark Horse comic I'm not so quick as to judge Isabela.  You have to do your research to really learn to dislike her on the level of Blandwall (who's story is laid out for you pretty neatly without much googling involved).  In the game she let 200 slaves run free into the wild.  Maybe one is true, or both, or neither.  Such as the games have proven when dealing with Varric and Isabela.  Let's not forget to mention that she had a cameo in Dragon Age: Origins, a companion in Dragon Age 2 and featured in books after that.  So clearly Isabela has gotten enough attention to warrant her a bit of a fan favorite... or at least a story worth telling.

 

Blandwall is sitting at the chopping block when he "decides to come clean."  You've already built up rapport, a back story, maybe even a romance.  Everything you've known about him prior to his character crisis has been a lie.  He's been lying about who he is and what he has been about the whole time.  Not only that, but he has concealed some pretty big things.  He's ready now to face his crime but without involving you or the Inquisition.  He gave us the treaties to potentially conscript soldiers, resources, and garner favor over people who survived the Blight.  So now we have that mess to also potentially clean up.

 

Blandwall could've come clean much earlier, much sooner and joined the Wardens before the inquisition was even a glint in my eye (like he was supposed to) or turn himself in.  He decided to hide in another man's life and lie about his death.  His reasons are just excuses.  He was given blood money to kill some noble and it wasn't even that he did it himself; he ordered his men to do it.  Men who trusted him.  He didn't have a problem with lying to his men until the noble's family was discovered and also killed.  His reaction was to run leaving his men behind to take the blame.  His men seemingly unaware that he had taken money or what the heck was happening.

 

He didn't want to be himself anymore so he became Blackwall. 

 

He stopped one of his men from being hanged, but we don't know if any others faced punishment.  Had he joined the Wardens he probably wouldn't be in a position to do that directly, but it would also have been known that Thom Rainer was conscripted into the Grey Wardens and people would've probably dropped the issue.  Bitter, but dropped it.  The Grey Wardens may have their secrets but the people of Thedas all generally know that joining the Grey Wardens is far from getting off lightly.

 

So his punishment is to be what he should have been before he took on Blackwall's identity and started to lie to everyone.

 

I just don't feel it.  Blandwall.  I think Varric even calls him Warden.  Doesn't even get a clever nickname because that's the depth of Blandwall.  It even has it's own sense of irony.  Calling a not Warden a Warden.

Come on now you don't like Blackwall and that's fine, personally I wasn't big on him either but you're really grasping at straws when you try to excuse the same actions from characters you like.  This isn't a case were the lie is worse than the action.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You'd be no beter than Ranier was. In fact, i'd call you even worse.

I don't want to hang him like that to serve as food for the crows. I just posted that since it sounded like something the OP wished to do to him. 

[Sardoni]

Come on now you don't like Blackwall and that's fine, personally I wasn't big on him either but you're really grasping at straws when you try to excuse the same actions from characters you like.  This isn't a case were the lie is worse than the action.

 

I'm not overly found of either Zevran or Sten.  Those two were benchwarmers at best for me in DA:O every time, but they didn't lie to me.  I didn't hate Isabela, but I didn't love her.  I used her as my "tank" in DA2 along with Fenris and Varric.  Since I always played sarcastically she fit the party mold for my dialog choices.  Her lies were woven into the story and yes her motivations are very self serving.  She has no reason to trust a no name like Hawke entirely, but she has a change of heart built into her arc if the player chooses to get approval with her.

 

I was responding to the other poster (whom I quoted) who wrote those companions off as having the same unlikeable traits as Blandwall.  I disagreed.

 

I could recruit anyone to be a meat shield.  I am the Inquisitor after all.  The Herald of Andraste.  The one with the glowly hand that is the only one that can seal the rifts.  I'm not a no name warden or ferelden refugee like prior games.  We wanted a Grey Warden for the Inquisition.  We got a liar.

 

To me the lie is worse than the action.

[sylvanaerie]

Well, it never fails.  Bioware comes out with one character per game everyone starts polarizing over.  With Origins, it's Loghain.  With DA2 it was Anders.  Guess Blackwall is the one for Inquisition?  While I find his writing pretty good, and it was interesting to be in the front row of his path, I just can't say he stirs in me the antipathy the other two characters do.  Yes, he's responsible for the deaths of a man and his family, and for filthy money.  Yes, he lied when Blackwall was killed by darkspawn.  He didn't kill Blackwall and steal his identity, he just felt worthless and that the world shouldn't have lost a good man, then tried to live up to it.  Would the wardens have believed him if he presented himself after Blackwall was dead?  It was a concern of his (a line of dialogue presented).

His actions (and the punishment) isn't as black and white to me for once.   I was able to execute Loghain and Anders without much thought, but Blackwall, while having done what he did for far less 'sympathetic' motivation, evokes more sympathy in that he desperately wants that man Thom to be dead.  That we watch the process of his character path from that selfish man to someone who can't hide anymore, who desperately wants to make right what can't be made right.  

If he were still that selfish ****** and not trying to be a better man, I'd have no qualms about wielding the headsman's axe myself.  

My decision to send him to the grey wardens isn't for his sake.  Joining the grey wardens is (by game lore) a traditional way of 'addressing' your crimes and dealing 'justice' (recall the way the city elf is recruited).  The general populace accepts this as punishment (the guards who came to arrest the CE aren't happy but accept Duncan's recruitment).  Blackwall intended for this to be Thom's future, so I do it to honor Blackwall's (the original warden, not Thom) intent.

Just setting him free or conscripting him to the Inquisition doesn't seem nearly enough, and executing the man just seems redundant (and also not a punishment) since he wants to die by the time he turns himself in.

 

As judge in the Inquisition I tried to make the punishment fit the crime, and for those I didn't kill, perhaps they learned something along the way, or, if not, at least helped others along the way.

[GloriousDame]

I suspected that he had a criminal past, which wouldn't have bothered me as a player (but maybe my Inquisitors) that much because a lot of Wardens have been criminals (lookin' at you Duncan), but I never suspected the cowardice he lived with for so many years. Something about the way his answers were clipped when you asked about the Wardens or darkspawn threw me off, especially when he says he was in Ferelden during the Blight and we hear nothing of it... But I didn't suspect him to the same degree as the surprise.

 

This. I have a tank warrior who is better in Cassandra. Blackwall isn't the type I exactly trust. I always knew something was fishy about him blabbering on about honor and such. I was a Warden I know one when I see one and that man is not who I want saving the world from a blight. He would run and hide like he always has.

Off topic but...

Can I just say this is SO f*cking adorable? I just love it when I see someone getting so immersed in a game/story/etc. that they say things like this. It's so nice to see another person connect so deeply to a story, but in this case, because it is a character you made and went through so much together, the connection is just that much stronger because YOU were that Warden. You made me smile.

[Aramintai]

Dislike Blackwall if you will, but the fact of the matter is, he killed children and he made himself pay for his crimes through effort, sweat, blood, and his life. 

Riight, he could have done all that by going to the Grey Wardens after real Blackwalls's death. But no, he took another man's name as a mask to hide himself from persecutors all the while trying to justify his cowardice by saying to himself that he's making amends by trying to fill a better man's shoes. I suppose he even believes it. Varric said that you have to believe in your lies to be a truly good liar. 

If he was an honest, truly repentant man he should have given himself to the authorities or joined the Grey Wardens. But no, he's not only a liar, but also a coward. And every self-righteous thing he said before his crime was revealed my Inquisitor now just views as hypocrisy.

[Han Shot First]

When Blackwall discovers another man was going to be hung as him, he turns himself in. Blackwall volunteers himself for the hangman's noose. He might be a murderer, but he isn't a coward.

[Sardoni]

Well, it never fails.  Bioware comes out with one character per game everyone starts polarizing over.  With Origins, it's Loghain.  With DA2 it was Anders.  Guess Blackwall is the one for Inquisition?  While I find his writing pretty good, and it was interesting to be in the front row of his path, I just can't say he stirs in me the antipathy the other two characters do.  Yes, he's responsible for the deaths of a man and his family, and for filthy money.  Yes, he lied when Blackwall was killed by darkspawn.  He didn't kill Blackwall and steal his identity, he just felt worthless and that the world shouldn't have lost a good man, then tried to live up to it.  Would the wardens have believed him if he presented himself after Blackwall was dead?  It was a concern of his (a line of dialogue presented).

His actions (and the punishment) isn't as black and white to me for once.   I was able to execute Loghain and Anders without much thought, but Blackwall, while having done what he did for far less 'sympathetic' motivation, evokes more sympathy in that he desperately wants that man Thom to be dead.  That we watch the process of his character path from that selfish man to someone who can't hide anymore, who desperately wants to make right what can't be made right.  

If he were still that selfish ****** and not trying to be a better man, I'd have no qualms about wielding the headsman's axe myself.  

My decision to send him to the grey wardens isn't for his sake.  Joining the grey wardens is (by game lore) a traditional way of 'addressing' your crimes and dealing 'justice' (recall the way the city elf is recruited).  The general populace accepts this as punishment (the guards who came to arrest the CE aren't happy but accept Duncan's recruitment).  Blackwall intended for this to be Thom's future, so I do it to honor Blackwall's (the original warden, not Thom) intent.

Just setting him free or conscripting him to the Inquisition doesn't seem nearly enough, and executing the man just seems redundant (and also not a punishment) since he wants to die by the time he turns himself in.

 

As judge in the Inquisition I tried to make the punishment fit the crime, and for those I didn't kill, perhaps they learned something along the way, or, if not, at least helped others along the way.

 

Except Thom wasn't being conscripted into the Grey Wardens for his crime.  He was being conscripted because Blackwall saw potential in him.  Thom was in an unrelated bar brawl defending the waitress and a Grey Warden scooped him up.  Thom could have said no.

 

If Thom wanted to honor Blackwall he would have brought the darkspawn blood and the story of Blackwall's sacrifice to the Grey Wardens instead of assuming everyone was going to think he murdered Blackwall.  I know the reasons he voiced, but that is what makes him a coward in my eyes. 

 

Nothing says well adjusted like taking over the identity of a dead man simply because you can't take dealing with your own identity.  I don't find anything in that endearing, redeeming, or worthy of a spot in my Inquisition.

 

Side note: I liked Awakenings Anders, didn't care for DA2 Anders.  Didn't like the direction he went in but I understood why they sent him down that path.  I've never cared for Loghain as I've always enjoyed Alistair, but I liked that the Loghain option existed as a neat alternative.  In my eyes, siding with Loghain almost neatly wraps up the bow on a chaotic evil play through.

[Estelindis]

I kind of felt at least SOMEWHAT sympathetic towards him until he then gave me a "Well, I guess it's lucky I wasn't a warden after all!" line after learning about Corypheus resurrection powers. He's a hypocritical coward, through and through. A FANTASTICALLY nuanced and well written coward, but a coward nonetheless. At least when I bitched him out for saying that he had the common sense to seem embarrassed for himself.

Sorry but I don't see why this line would lessen sympathy for him.  It is a pragmatic concern: if a genuine Warden is nearby, Corypheus can body-hop.  Blackwall not being a Warden is better in this situation than him being one.

[joejoe099]

Riight, he could have done all that by going to the Grey Wardens after real Blackwalls's death. But no, he took another man's name as a mask to hide himself from persecutors all the while trying to justify his cowardice by saying to himself that he's making amends by trying to fill a better man's shoes. I suppose he even believes it. Varric said that you have to believe in your lies to be a truly good liar. 

If he was an honest, truly repentant man he should have given himself to the authorities or joined the Grey Wardens. But no, he's not only a liar, but also a coward. And every self-righteous thing he said before his crime was revealed my Inquisitor now just views as hypocrisy.

 

And it was through your interference, your inquisition existing that he even comes out with the truth. It seems entirely clear he would've kept the grey warden lie going for as long as possible, inquisition or no, but it's BECAUSE of the example that you show, and what is collected because of you, he finds the courage to actually step out from the shadows and finally reface his judgement. Being out in the wilderness looking for new recruits means he would've likely been out of the loop on a lot of things, including possible executions of his subordinates. Through all this time, he tries to do some goods that might rewrite a wrong that can't be fixed.

 

Killing some one is just wasteful, extensively when it's some one who wants to die while trying to make up for his wrong doings.

[Aramintai]

Killing some one is just wasteful, extensively when it's some one who wants to die while trying to make up for his wrong doings.

Well, I never said I'd kill him. He goes to the Grey Wardens after the game ends as he should have done from the very beginning.

Even criminals are welcome among their ranks, all their past transgressions forgotten.

[Annarl]

You remember when isabella said she doesn't carry slaves in her ships? The reason she let the batch she was lied to about carrying free and is hunted for in DA2? She once transported slaves, and dumped them over board when their weight was slowing them down that they'd be captured. She dumped them, chained and all, and let them drown, helpless, in the cold dark deep.

 

 

said nothing to defend her. Blackwall openly admits he hated himself to giving the order. That, and was too much of a coward to open his mouth as his men suffered for it. So scared, he took up a new name because he saw the chance, and his old one was too tainted in his eyes. He tries constantly to help people in any small way. Should the man be punished for his crimes? Yes. But to disallow him the chance to redeem himself permits greater evils to persist.

Question

Are the events in the comics cannon?  I always thought they weren't. 

 

As for Blackwall, I thought he was an interesting character. I will always give him to the Wardens, it seems a fitting thing to do. Though I don't think I could ever make a character that romances him now. lol

[Wulfram]

I don't know he's much worse than other companions we've had in Bioware games. But that's because a lot of Bioware companions at least have terrible pasts.

But the relationship with the protagonist is worse

Question
Are the events in the comics cannon? I always thought they weren't.

They're not canon in as much as the details might conflict with your choices, but backstory for Isabela would be the same no matter what the player chooses, so this bit is presumably canon.

[sylvanaerie]

Except Thom wasn't being conscripted into the Grey Wardens for his crime.  He was being conscripted because Blackwall saw potential in him.  Thom was in an unrelated bar brawl defending the waitress and a Grey Warden scooped him up.  Thom could have said no.

 

If Thom wanted to honor Blackwall he would have brought the darkspawn blood and the story of Blackwall's sacrifice to the Grey Wardens instead of assuming everyone was going to think he murdered Blackwall.  I know the reasons he voiced, but that is what makes him a coward in my eyes. 

 

Nothing says well adjusted like taking over the identity of a dead man simply because you can't take dealing with your own identity.  I don't find anything in that endearing, redeeming, or worthy of a spot in my Inquisition.

 

Side note: I liked Awakenings Anders, didn't care for DA2 Anders.  Didn't like the direction he went in but I understood why they sent him down that path.  I've never cared for Loghain as I've always enjoyed Alistair, but I liked that the Loghain option existed as a neat alternative.  In my eyes, siding with Loghain almost neatly wraps up the bow on a chaotic evil play through.

 

Yea, I think Blackwall is going to be the polarizing character of Inquisition.  Each person interprets the characters how they choose (one of the best part of these games) and you obviously see his flaws as a deal breaker for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Your game, you paid for it, you get to play how you choose.  We can debate his merits and flaws back and forth for several more pages, but I don't see either of us budging on our stance, which just means we're chatting in circles at this point.  So, I'm willing to call it at this point.
 

At least it's been a civil debate by BSN standards and I thank you for the discussion.

[Ryzaki]

Eh I don't recruit him anymore.

 

Don't want to have to sigh as my character falls for his BS mostly.

[Amirit]

BW - as bland and boring as he is - is a good warrior. RP-wise he is an asset to the war. Destroying him is like destroying a weapon just because it was used for a not justified murder. If he can serve somewhere and be useful to the good curse - so be it. 

[Kendaric Varkellen]

I like Blackwall personally, he's in fact my favorite companion. Sure, he commited a crime, but DA is supposed to be dark fantasy rather than typical rainbows and unicorns high fantasy. Also, to all of those who hated Blackwall... did you act against Empress Celene as well? After all she burned down an entire alienage... and I strongly doubt there weren't any children within.

[joejoe099]

Question

Are the events in the comics cannon?  I always thought they weren't. 

 

As for Blackwall, I thought he was an interesting character. I will always give him to the Wardens, it seems a fitting thing to do. Though I don't think I could ever make a character that romances him now. lol

 

Yes, the events in the comics are considered cannon. At least, they make sense with the cannon since in basic cannon, alistar is king.

[OHB MajorV]

You'd be no beter than Ranier was. In fact, i'd call you even worse.

For handing out justice in a manner that sends a message across Thedas that the Inquisitor is fair and will punish those who commit crimes? Seems legit.

[SarEnyaDor]

I like and dislike Blackwall. My dwarf quizzie will forgive him. Most of the others will not. I think him sleeping with her in a nasty stable, under a false identity, and leaving her completely nude and alone where anything could happen to her is the worst thing he did. At least the people he killed were part of a job, he supposedly cared for the Inquisitor and knowingly took advantage of her (rape by deception).

[joejoe099]

I like and dislike Blackwall. My dwarf quizzie will forgive him. Most of the others will not. I think him sleeping with her in a nasty stable, under a false identity, and leaving her completely nude and alone where anything could happen to her is the worst thing he did. At least the people he killed were part of a job, he supposedly cared for the Inquisitor and knowingly took advantage of her (rape by deception).

 

pretty sure nothing would happen to the inquisitor herself in her own castle for that last bit....regardless, dude left because he felt like he didn't deserve femquistor. that the order he gave makes him too much bad news for ya, too much baggage and all that. Honestly, people are so quick to just accuse people here and not give any empathy.

[Vanth]

The only reason I broke Blackwall out was so I could chop his head off myself. So I was disappointed that the game didn't let me. 

 

Having said that, Solas' deception is worse.

[SarEnyaDor]

http://en.m.wikipedi...pe_by_deception

It is a real crime. I think you'd feel pretty sickened to learn that someone you gave yourself to was a lie.

His intentions it regrets about it do not mitigate the crime.

[XMissWooX]

Much like Iron Bull; Sten is up front about his background and his crimes. Sten more so in his own way. If you go to ask for the key the Mother also tells you his crimes up front. Sten is also remorseful and admits fully that he is at fault. Rotting in the cage was his way of atoning and accepting his fate. You can choose to give Sten a chance to get his "soul" back. You can also leave Sten in his cage and walk away letting the Blight eventually take him. As the game develops you learn more about Sten and his motivations but it never contradicts what he's revealed.

 

That applies to Blackwall too though. You have the initial deception, but I don't see how that hurts anything except your feelings.
Blackwall is also remorseful and admits fully that he is at fault. Being hanged was his way of atoning and accepting his fate. You can choose to give Blackwall a chance to get become a better person. You can also leave Blackwall in his cell and walk away letting the guards eventually execute him. As the game develops you realise that the things Blackwall said before his revelation actually make a lot more sense in hindsight and (excepting his imposing as a Warden) rarely contradicts what he's revealed.
 

Zevran's has much deeper stories to tell about his first kills and how the various deaths shaped him. I wouldn't go so far as to say he happily kills people indiscriminately, but he's lately only taken the contracts of dangerous people. The Hero of Ferelden was definitely painted in that light by Loghain. He's an assassin working for the Antivan Crows (or freelance depending on how your story unfolded). Assassin's can choose who to kill or not kill. Zev is haunted by his past but he never hides it from you. It may take time for him to open up but he doesn't lie. You meet him in DA:O as he is trying to murder you. At that moment you choose to recruit him or kill him. You have the option to just kill him and move on with your game.

 

I still have to disagree, because the only time I saw Zevran show any regret was in regards to killing his lover. In fact, you get disapproval from him if you say anything negative about his profession and he call him out on enjoying killing. So he never struck as remorseful.
Blackwall on the other hand showed plenty of remorse - so much so that he actually wanted to die. And his banter with Cole also demonstrates that he has a guilty conscience.
 

As for the events of Dragon Age: Those Who Speak and Isabela's confession of throwing slaves overboard. If this series has taught me anything it's simply never trust what Varric or Isabela have to say. Especially at face value.

 

That all sounds like an incredibly convenient handwave on your part. It doesn't change the fact that Isabella sacrificed the slaves on the boat and the people of Kirkwall in order to save her own skin. Likewise, Blackwall sacrificed his men to save himself. They are both as bad as each other.
 

Blandwall is sitting at the chopping block when he "decides to come clean." You've already built up rapport, a back story, maybe even a romance. Everything you've known about him prior to his character crisis has been a lie. He's been lying about who he is and what he has been about the whole time. Not only that, but he has concealed some pretty big things. He's ready now to face his crime but without involving you or the Inquisition. He gave us the treaties to potentially conscript soldiers, resources, and garner favor over people who survived the Blight. So now we have that mess to also potentially clean up.
Blandwall could've come clean much earlier, much sooner and joined the Wardens before the inquisition was even a glint in my eye (like he was supposed to) or turn himself in. He decided to hide in another man's life and lie about his death. His reasons are just excuses. He was given blood money to kill some noble and it wasn't even that he did it himself; he ordered his men to do it. Men who trusted him. He didn't have a problem with lying to his men until the noble's family was discovered and also killed. His reaction was to run leaving his men behind to take the blame. His men seemingly unaware that he had taken money or what the heck was happening.
He didn't want to be himself anymore so he became Blackwall.

 

Again, lying is hardly the worst thing any of our companions have done. His deception may have hurt your feelings, but that's about all it could have done.
 

So his punishment is to be what he should have been before he took on Blackwall's identity and started to lie to everyone.

 

I agree, I think that is a fitting punishment. I am not claiming that he is innocent of wrongdoing and shouldn't be punished, I am arguing that 1) he is not the first companion we've had who has done terrible things and 2) he truly regrets his crime and that giving his life as forfeit (either in the Inquisition or the Wardens) to save innocents is a much better course of action than killing him to make everyone feel better about a crime he can't take back.

[kyles3]

The thing I appreciate about Blackwall is that he did for himself what prison fails to do for so many inmates: he rehabilitated. He became a force for good. Even if I can't say I like him, I do respect him. He's a really interesting character.