180 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Mutare]

I do not think some things are redeemable, especially to the person it effects.  

[XMissWooX]

A modern day twist on the story doesn't make him any more redeemable.  Just because "he did good" for two years while pretending to be someone he isn't doesn't make him a better person.

I still disagree. What he did in the past and why he lied are not as important as who he is now. Everyone makes mistakes - it's what you choose to do with your second chance that determines who and what you really are.
Blackwall wants to help the Inquisition do good, and in my eyes that makes him a better person than the murder he used to be.

[OHB MajorV]

I still disagree. What he did in the past and why he lied are not as important as who he is now. Everyone makes mistakes - it's what you choose to do with your second chance that determines who and what you really are.
Blackwall wants to help the Inquisition do good, and in my eyes that makes him a better person than the murder he used to be.

That can only be said of those who aren't the victims in this. I doubt their family would care who he is or what he's done since murdering people they loved. The victims should take priority here. Not blackwall.

[XMissWooX]

That can only be said of those who aren't the victims in this. I doubt their family would care who he is or what he's done since murdering people they loved. The victims should take priority here. Not blackwall.

The victims are dead and nothing he could do will ever bring them back. But if he could help stop other people from having to go through that pain, then his life needn't be a waste.

[Ashagar]

If anyone I did want to stick a sword in it and otherwise punished would the nobleman who gave him the orders in the first place and likely feels no guilt about it just part of the game.

[OHB MajorV]

The victims are dead and nothing he could do will ever bring them back. But if he could help stop other people from having to go through that pain, then his life needn't be a waste.

I disagree. Justice helps keep things in order. Actions must have consequences that equal. He knew what he was doing. Murder for hire.

By the logic you are using Hitler should have been captured and made to general an army because he had "leadership qualities". I know this is an extreme comparison but it's a solid one none the less.

[Daerog]

Even if a member of that family survived, the priority should be what is good, what is just (as in a return to harmony, removal of evil, w/e), and not vengeance.

 

The perpetrator is also the victim in this evil act, and Blackwall found that out and it destroyed him. Society is also a victim, as those people can no longer contribute to it, but Blackwall is trying to help society, so to remove Blackwall from helping would also be a crime and making society a victim again.

 

Blackwall has already punished himself and has completely reformed. What else is there to do? Do evil upon him? How does that promote justice?

[Daerog]

I disagree. Justice helps keep things in order. Actions must have consequences that equal. He knew what he was doing. Murder for hire.

By the logic you are using Hitler should have been captured and made to general an army because he had "leadership qualities". I know this is an extreme comparison but it's a solid one none the less.

 

If we are going to Godwin this thread, okay, I'll jump in.

 

It would have been better for Hitler to have survived, to change his ways and outlook on humanity, and devoted his life to help people, feed the poor, fund projects to help all the refugees caused by the war, and maybe even help build homes for the homeless.

 

Instead he died, only leaving evil behind him and nothing further.

 

It is good that evil stopped (in his case anyway), but it would be better for evil to be stopped and replaced by good. Something is better than nothing.

[XMissWooX]

I disagree. Justice helps keep things in order. Actions must have consequences that equal. He knew what he was doing. Murder for hire.
By the logic you are using Hitler should have been captured and made to general an army because he had "leadership qualities". I know this is an extreme comparison but it's a solid one none the less.

No, because as far as I know Hitler showed absolutely no regret for his actions. You can't be redeemed if you won't accept that what you''ve done is wrong.
Blackwall has accepted his guilt, and is willing to make amends as best he can.

[Vanth]

We should never forgive. Bad actions don't suddenly become OK because the person is sorry or because time has passed. We are all accountable forever for the bad things we do.

[OHB MajorV]

We should never forgive. Bad actions don't suddenly become OK because the person is sorry or because time has passed. We are all accountable forever for the bad things we do.

You come in here throwing around all that common sense and it could hurt someone. Careful.

[OHB MajorV]

If we are going to Godwin this thread, okay, I'll jump in.

It would have been better for Hitler to have survived, to change his ways and outlook on humanity, and devoted his life to help people, feed the poor, fund projects to help all the refugees caused by the war, and maybe even help build homes for the homeless.

Instead he died, only leaving evil behind him and nothing further.

It is good that evil stopped (in his case anyway), but it would be better for evil to be stopped and replaced by good. Something is better than nothing.

Better for who? Certainly not the thousands massacred. It's bad enough NASA is essentially built around Nazi rocket tech.

[Daerog]

We should never forgive. Bad actions don't suddenly become OK because the person is sorry or because time has passed. We are all accountable forever for the bad things we do.

 

We should also be accountable for all the good we do. The bad we do should not invalidate all the good we do, and the good we do does not remove all the bad we have done.

 

He is not going to do such evil acts again, he is completely reformed, he is no longer greedy, beardless, Thom, he is the altruistic Blackwall now.

 

To remove him would not be removing a bad man, but a good one, and would be preventing good from being done, which is wrong.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A good term for what Rainier did is irredeemable.

 

The definition of the term redeemable is: capable of being corrected.

The definition for irredeemable is: not able to be saved, improved, or corrected.

 

No matter what Rainier does, he will never be capable of correcting his actions, thus he can never redeem himself. 

[Daerog]

Better for who? Certainly not the thousands massacred. It's bad enough NASA is essentially built around Nazi rocket tech.

 

How can someone make it better for the one's that someone killed? They are dead, not much can be done for them (unless you believe in Purgatory, then prayers would help them). Should they be forgotten? Of course not, and the someone and society will remember such an evil act, but it should be learned from and good should come from it, not more evil or prevention of good.

[OHB MajorV]

He is not going to do such evil acts again, he is completely reformed, he is no longer greedy, beardless, Thom, he is the altruistic Blackwall now.

If that isn't some serious conjecture to try and validate your point I don't know what is.

[Daerog]

A good term for what Rainier did is irredeemable.

 

The definition of the term redeemable is: capable of being corrected.

The definition for irredeemable is: not able to be saved, improved, or corrected.

 

No matter what Rainier does, he will never be capable of correcting his actions, thus he can never redeem himself. 

 

So, nothing is redeemable, because we can not go back in time and stop doing a bad act. The bad act is done, nothing can remove it from ever happening. One can steal a dollar, and later return a dollar, but for that time the dollar was stolen and that cannot be undone.

 

However, I would say Blackwall is redeemable, as he does correct his character, improved his outlook on life, went from being greedy to be selfless, and such.

[Daerog]

If that isn't some serious conjecture to try and validate your point I don't know what is.

 

Ya, it was broad, and it was a fallacy, I know.

 

My point is mainly, why remove a good man from the world? That would be a crime. He did bad, he reformed, he does good. It would be unjust to have him killed or have any evil acts, like torture like someone said earlier, be done to him.

[OHB MajorV]

Ya, it was broad, and it was a fallacy, I know.

My point is mainly, why remove a good man from the world? That would be a crime. He did bad, he reformed, he does good. It would be unjust to have him killed or have any evil acts, like torture like someone said earlier, be done to him.

Well he didn't reform until a last second decision to join the inquisition. He lives a lie. Much like someone who impersonates military personnel just to get pats on the back and make them feel better about themselves. It's wrong. On a fundamental base level of human decency he is wrong.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So, nothing is redeemable, because we can not go back in time and stop doing a bad act. The bad act is done, nothing can remove it from ever happening. One can steal a dollar, and later return a dollar, but for that time the dollar was stolen and that cannot be undone.

 

However, I would say Blackwall is redeemable, as he does correct his character, improved his outlook on life, went from being greedy to be selfless, and such.

No, there are many things, even crimes, that are redeemable. For example since you used it, thievery is a redeemable crime because you can return what you stole, thus you corrected your action. However terrible crimes like murder and rape are irredeemable since no matter what you do, you can't correct what you've done to the victim and/or the people who knew the victim. 

 

Becoming a better person won't bring those people back to life, so no that does not make him redeemed. 

[Myusha123]

We should never forgive. Bad actions don't suddenly become OK because the person is sorry or because time has passed. We are all accountable forever for the bad things we do.

Nobody's saying bad actions are okay. It's what you ****** do after that matters. Blackwall isn't some Hitler, didn't take delight in murdering a family. He gives you the option to kill him. To serve justice that way to the families. Or to make amends to the Inquisition by continuing his lie. Or sending him to the Wardens. Or pardoning him. 

The only option you don't get, is to execute him. Because he's done more harm to Orlais than the Inquisition. If anything he's done the Inquisition some good. 

[Daerog]

Well he didn't reform until a last second decision to join the inquisition. He lives a lie. Much like someone who impersonates military personnel just to get pats on the back and make them feel better about themselves. It's wrong. On a fundamental base level of human decency he is wrong.

 

He was finding a way to redeem himself. He was wandering around, doing good deeds here and there, then joined the Inquisition and finally was able to draw on the strength he built up to finally face his past. Nothing is more right then trying to become a good person, even if one is having trouble in the beginning and is scared to face the earlier wrongs.

 

No, there are many things, even crimes, that are redeemable. For example since you used it, thievery is a redeemable crime because you can return what you stole, thus you corrected your action. However terrible crimes like murder and rape are irredeemable since no matter what you do, you can't correct what you've done to the victim and/or the people who knew the victim. 

 

Becoming a better person won't bring those people back to life, so no that does not make him redeemed. 

 

You can return the items, but for a time the items were stolen, and giving them later does not remove the time when they were stolen. The person who was stolen from was a victim, giving back does not change that.

 

But fine, let's say he is irredeemable, I don't care so much about arguing that point, more that he is a man who is trying to be a good person, very earnestly, even if he is scared of his past, and I find that admirable and worthy to pursue. To stop that would be a crime and an evil.

[RobRam10]

Blackwall did nothing wrong all he did was rid us of some Orlesian fops.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You can return the items, but for a time the items were stolen, and giving them later does not remove the time when they were stolen. The person who was stolen from was a victim, giving back does not change that.

 

But fine, let's say he is irredeemable, I don't care so much about arguing that point, more that he is a man who is trying to be a good person, very earnestly, even if he is scared of his past, and I find that admirable and worthy to pursue. To stop that would be a crime and an evil.

Yes, they were a victim of a crime. But the definition of redeemable is something that can be corrected. Stealing can be corrected by giving the stolen item back. 

 

I don't stop him from doing that. He just does so under my custody. 

[Hazegurl]

No, there are many things, even crimes, that are redeemable. For example since you used it, thievery is a redeemable crime because you can return what you stole, thus you corrected your action. However terrible crimes like murder and rape are irredeemable since no matter what you do, you can't correct what you've done to the victim and/or the people who knew the victim. 

 

Becoming a better person won't bring those people back to life, so no that does not make him redeemed. 

I would even argue that depending on how the victim feels in a thievery situation, returning the merchandise doesn't mean the victim wouldn't want to kick the thief's butt anyway. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Some crimes do require a harsher punishment which is why we have degrees on the type of crimes committed.  I personally can't tell if Blackwall pretended to be GW to do good or if he did because he's a coward who desired praised. Seems a bit of both.