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The DAMP:END GAME, plans beyond promote, promote, promote? ... raids?


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#26
TheThirdRace

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@Zane Storm
Oh my! The "entitled" argument against me... I'll just say it once: I'm not feeling entitled, Bioware do whatever it wants with its game, I only used the first person because it's more natural. I understand why you might have thought of me as that, but I assure you it's not the case.
 
Your arguments are only from those 20 or so replies. I hardly take this as "the community" in a large sense. You want to re-invent the whole game design, I say it's better to things that fit into the current design instead. You give the perfect example of the "new" fan, you want to change everything without any regard to what was there first. It's also a sign of lack of maturity and impatience like so many youngster over the centuries...
 
I don't know who you are, I've never read any of your posts before so I keep a cautious approach with your opinion. I've been on ME3 forums for the last few years, I've taken the time to study the game's mechanics and given thoughtful replies. I've done the same for Skyrim, SquadTD, Special Force Elite 5, etc. I can't say the same of you for now. So before trying to lynch me for my opinion, try to give a logical and thoughtful idea. You did what most newcomers do, barge in and balk like you own the place.

 

Edit:

 

I'll give you one thing, there are lots of things that went wrong with the launch. The MP wasn't ready. Given what we got with ME3, I expected the Inquisition HQ the first day, a weekend challenge the first week, a loot system that makes sense, PC controls that aren't pure crap (especially menus) and a couple other things like that. The current launch is worst than ME3 was, you'd thought they'd be better from the start after so many improvements on the former game. This is highly disappointing...


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#27
HappySchwagg

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This is the first DA with multiplayer... How can there be old fans of DAMP?



#28
xcenic

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i dont want dragons that 0hk whole party with one attack and spaming endless trash dragon babys. 



#29
Storm_Changer

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@Zane Storm
Oh my! The "entitled" argument against me... I'll just say it once: I'm not feeling entitled, Bioware do whatever it wants with its game, I only used the first person because it's more natural. I understand why you might have thought of me as that, but I assure you it's not the case... [cut to make the post smaller] 
 

This is my last reply to you because this is getting somewhat off the topic at hand, which is content suggestions. I don't want us to de-rail a valuable thread. 

 

I'm sorry that you bare some form of resentment towards new people, but I don't require your seal of approval to state my opinion. If you can't see the airs your putting on in your posts, it bares no value to discuss it further. I'm sure you don't mean to come across quite so antagonistically.

 

This threads posters largely support the idea of raids. That is what I meant, when referring to community. 

 

The SP and MP design is fundamentally different. The current "Design" of MP is a Diablo / Path of Exile esque dungeon crawler with an RNG based loot system. It also has similarities to dungeons run in MMO's too. By your own argument it then makes perfect sense to ask for more challenging raid bosses that take longer to defeat and require concerted team effort. That is the exact play style DIAMP attempts to promote in the first instance. As an above user has also pointed out, this is also the first DA game with multi-player, so it is impossible to deviate from past design philosophy as there is no design philosophy to deviate from. 

 

I'm happy for your commitment to various games, that doesn't make your opinions more valid than anyone elses. it is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Which is Raids in DAIMP. I'm just supporting a good idea because I value it, I don't see that as invading or 'owning' anything. This forum isn't a territory.

 

Regardless of launch we can only promote the directions we think the game should move towards. I just hope the dev's are sincere about providing additional content for MP, and that they take this OP's suggestion into account as it would be a fantastic addition, IMO. 



#30
Tkaudi

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Please note the OP and purpose of this thread is simply to bring light to the desire to have an end game in MP that does not revolve around only promoting and redoing leveling content.

 

It is my belief that Bioware is fully aware of their options before I made this post, and probably have some very creative individuals who have already hashed out ideas that we simply do not know of.

 

lets not get hung up on the word 'raid' and 'WoW', please re-read the OP where I used it for dialogue for the community as a means to communicate a game system that brings you out of the leveling process and gives you a completely different set of goals and accomplishments for top level characters to enjoy and spend time achieving.   At no point did I say 'mimic a MMO', I said mimic a raid (mmo style, sure), Bosses, Loot, and MORE bosses!   A lot of games have a system where you fight a boss, even DAMP has this system in its leveling.  Every single game you play is indeed a mini raid, all I was advocating is more emphasis on more scripted bosses instead of one free flowing encounter at the end in a big arena map.

 

 

I believe Bioware have done what they had to do so far with DAMP.  Its new, and it's got a long life ahead of it.  Time will tell where we all fall for our opinions in the future.

 

I simply wanted to bring light to an approach that I think this system could excel at, and to say for myself as a long term player that I would like end game content to complete such a great system that MP offers.

 

I am not impatient as I understand how long it takes to make quality content, nor do I personally expect anything from this discussion beyond the discussion.

 

 

Tkaudi - Salan



#31
tbxvividos

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Well...when Season 2 in Diablo 3 starts I'll probably be focusing there again.

It took 2+ years, but they finally figured out how to make a halfway decent endgame, and content updates I care about.

I spent the better part of that games lifespan severely disappointed with it, and thus didn't play it.

Now I come back with every content update.

So...

If DAMP starts getting content updates too, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't come back here too.

But currently, I need a few weapons and jewelry and I'll have already maxed everything. Once I have those, as much fun as I have playing, I'll have little motivation to continue.

A REALLY hard difficulty, a deluge of new (and good) items/classes, or a "raid" style progression system would keep me playing significantly longer.

I like the idea of incorporating a mass effect style upgrade system to weapons.
But I'd also want a spectre pack style chest option as well.

Making a Longbow of the partisan X would have been much more interesting than turning 100 of them into near hides...

#32
PurpGuy1

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I've done the same for Skyrim, SquadTD, Special Force Elite 5, etc

 

Skimming your post while eating my dinner, I read that as "SquadSTD"

 

That is all.



#33
Zakmonster85

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Actually, I think the pace of DAMP is going about the same as the pace of ME3MP, particularly in regards to the number of players attempting the higher difficulties. Perilous/Gold is gated by the quality of gear you have, as well as the amount of experience and skill you have with your chosen classes. After a year of ME3MP, you had people playing Gold matches with level 1 characters, because they'd already spent a lot of time on the game, knew what to do, and had good gear.

 

The same will happen for DAMP, it's just going to take a while. There are currently plenty of people playing Threatening (in my experience), and you can tell that these people, myself included, would be able to accomplish Perilous but don't (for a variety of logical and understandable reasons). The game isn't going to die any time soon, because the entire cycle of leveling and promoting characters is fun in and of itself. Just look at games like Warframe, which has a very similar 'progression-style' as DAMP (including promoting characters and weapons in order to make them stronger).

 

That said, there are things that need fixing.

 

Loot RNG needs to be alleviated. There needs to be some way to level up your weapons through the crafting system instead of hoping for a lucky high level drop.

 

Different bosses for each faction. Instead of just one single Commander, have a selection of 3 or 4, and you don't know which one you'll be facing until you meet him/her. Even this small bit of randomness and variety can inject a lot of longevity into a pretty formulaic game (look at D3's Greater Rifts, which are just random maps with random enemies and a random boss).

 

They've already promised more classes and more maps, so there's more variety incoming. Just the ability to explore and play around with new classes will be enough to keep players in the game (once again, look at ME3).

 

I don't think an extended raid-type dungeon is the way to go. The style of the game should remain as short, fast-paced dungeons, instead of long hauls through several bosses, mainly because it forces you to complete the entire dungeon in one attempt (unlike an MMO, where you can 'save' your progress for another day, to alleviate fatigue).


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#34
Storm_Changer

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I don't think an extended raid-type dungeon is the way to go. The style of the game should remain as short, fast-paced dungeons, instead of long hauls through several bosses, mainly because it forces you to complete the entire dungeon in one attempt (unlike an MMO, where you can 'save' your progress for another day, to alleviate fatigue).

 

This game already takes 20+ minutes to complete a dungeon with public groups. That isn't fast paced. The Treasure rooms and pots ensure it isn't some fast-paced dungeon crawler, it's slow and methodical. A raid-like system would fit perfectly and actually CHANGE something. 

 

The bottom line is that anyone who could be retained by just a few maps, characters and bosses on a bare-bones MP game would be playing regardless. But that type of player is a minority. If MP doesn't evolve with NEW content, not re-hashed old content, it will only sustain a small player base, which would be to its direct detriment for any new players wanting to play. If you don't like the raid-like notion, provide a NEW idea for content rather than re-hashing old content. 

 

Why should we play this when we can play fully fleshed out, less bugged and more content filled games like D3 ect? If you can't provide the answer to that, it's a problem. I certainly can't give an answer to that, as this MP is objectively inferior to the experience D3 ect provide. That's just a tough truth, which shouldn't be true considering this game was originally created as a MP project. Without a unique selling point, or at the very least a fully fleshed out, non-bugged game, it will and has been quickly declining. 

 

Indeed I'm seeing the same people in the game everyday by this point. It's rare to get into a Perilous game quickly, but sometimes even threatening takes a while to find. Bare in mind I play at many different time zones, I typically see the same people at around the same time every few days. Considering this game is new and very hyped indeed, that's pretty worrying. 

 

I think Raids could change that, because it appeals to a different but similar crowd than the MP already appeals to, whilst providing retention in both instances due to crossover. 



#35
Zehealingman

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Dragon Combat.

Calling it now.

#36
knownastherat

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What is the difference between raid and current system (in SWTOR they call it Flashpoint)? Like more people in it? Random people in raid? Hope not.

 

Anyway, though I do not have any figures (number of players, number of micro-transactions, hours played, etc) on ME3 MP which gets cited here often, I would think DA:I is single player with multiplayer component. In other words, yeah it brings some revenues but its not worth substantial investment in development. Its indeed not WOW people will be playing 5 years from now. So to paraphrase a classic, hope only prolongs pain. Good ideas but perhaps little ambitious.

 

edit: Either way there is nothing easier but (Bioware) official making statement what plans there are for MP. It would only be fair to tell the community what is possible and whatnot. Go from there. 



#37
TheThirdRace

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This game already takes 20+ minutes to complete a dungeon with public groups. That isn't fast paced. The Treasure rooms and pots ensure it isn't some fast-paced dungeon crawler, it's slow and methodical. A raid-like system would fit perfectly and actually CHANGE something.


The MP is designed for 20-30 minutes games. If a "raid" style dungeon can respect that design then this could be an option. If it doesn't, it's changing the whole design and it's a no no. Also, 20 minutes games are "fast paced" but it doesn't mean there isn't room for methodical gameplay. Both aren't mutually exclusive.
 

The bottom line is that anyone who could be retained by just a few maps, characters and bosses on a bare-bones MP game would be playing regardless. But that type of player is a minority. If MP doesn't evolve with NEW content, not re-hashed old content, it will only sustain a small player base, which would be to its direct detriment for any new players wanting to play. If you don't like the raid-like notion, provide a NEW idea for content rather than re-hashing old content.


Here, you're hit or miss.

Hit: MP needs new content. Had there been more maps, different designs instead of slight variations, and a loot system up to par with ME3, the problem would be 10 times less.

Miss: You don't seem to understand the game format at all, you keep talking about changing everything without respecting the designs already in place. You don't play DA MP for 1 hour games, you play it for the 20-30 minutes format. Even then, 30 minutes is quite "long" for that format. Bioware's MP "formula" has worked tremendously well in the past, there's no reason for failing now.

I'm not doubting you want to like the game, but maybe you should ask yourself if the game is designed for someone with your tastes. Instead of enjoying the game for what it is, you want to make it something else to suit your needs. Don't you see how you might not be playing the right game to begin with?
 

Why should we play this when we can play fully fleshed out, less bugged and more content filled games like D3 ect? If you can't provide the answer to that, it's a problem. I certainly can't give an answer to that, as this MP is objectively inferior to the experience D3 ect provide. That's just a tough truth, which shouldn't be true considering this game was originally created as a MP project. Without a unique selling point, or at the very least a fully fleshed out, non-bugged game, it will and has been quickly declining.


D3 is a different game altogether. Granted it's the same basics, but the meta-game is not the same at all. D3 has long games (1+ hour), games are drop in drop out so you don't necessarily go from start to finish in one swoop, the investment in levelling is totally different (max level is much longer to reach), the number of characters is small so you invest more in them, the way you buy things at the "store" is wildly different with towns and NPCs. D3 isn't a good comparison for the meta-game, it's not the same at all.

Also, using D3 as a comparison for content might be detrimental. The game sold for more than 18M copies, it's certainly not on the same budget...

That doesn't mean Bioware can't use a couple ideas from other games, D3 included. But if they do so, they'll use ideas that fit the current format and the current meta-game.
 

Indeed I'm seeing the same people in the game everyday by this point. It's rare to get into a Perilous game quickly, but sometimes even threatening takes a while to find. Bare in mind I play at many different time zones, I typically see the same people at around the same time every few days. Considering this game is new and very hyped indeed, that's pretty worrying.


Perilous isn't crowded at the moment, but it's normal because the game is only 3 weeks old. Since the game is still young, people are still adapting to the gameplay and trying to get the best gear they can. When people will have covered the basics, they'll graduate to Threatening and do the same adaptation and try to get the best gear they can. The problem for Perilous is there's no incentive except for challenge. It's faster to collect gold by anihilating everything in Threatening than to work your way thru Perilous. Eventually, players skills and equipment will catch on and the number of Perilous players will grow. We're already seeing more and more Perilous lobbies than in the first 2 weeks so it's a good sign.
 

I think Raids could change that, because it appeals to a different but similar crowd than the MP already appeals to, whilst providing retention in both instances due to crossover.


Maybe, maybe not. Raids could be a good addition if it respects the 20-30 minutes design. On the other hand, the fragmentation of the player base would be worst for everyone. It was one of the great strengths of ME3, everyone had the same "version" of the game. It allows the game to thrive with a lower player base. So yes, it might be a good idea, but it could be just as bad.

#38
tbxvividos

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Thirdrace: d3 endgame is rifts. And due to game mechanics and the changes coming next patch, there's basically no pre-endgame anymore.
normal ones are 5-10 minute clears and greaters are 15 minutes max.

Both involve spamming runs for chances to get rng loot which cannot be traded.

I'd say the comparison is pretty close.

#39
Tkaudi

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Third you are having a lot of assumptions about what I originally posted.

First its never good to post a comment on content without a constructive.means of dealing with the perceived issue. To that degree i stated that replaying leveling content and end game being all about promoting was an issue i think they could.expand and improve. I then stated a simple general design that works and could.be incorporated.in this system.

Almost all your arguments are invalid in regards to what i posted.

Please tell me where uum I suggested.making long boring crawls.

You also fail to address the end game atmosphere of the op. This is not in regards to leveling in any sense.

And the comment that options fragments a population is very misrepresented by people who want to control their environment.

#40
Tkaudi

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Phone message forgive.spelling.