291 réponses à ce sujet

[9TailsFox]

Technically, the only "main" female villain I can recall is the Mother. There are other, minor ones, but no main ones, IIRC.

[Heimdall]

There are a lot of female leaders in Inquisition but Thedas is not lacking male leaders at all. Orlais seems to be one of the most egalitarian nations when it comes to politics.

Not really, the only country that actually seems like it might favor men is Tevinter. Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism.

[mikeymoonshine]

 

That's simply a man with boobs. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

I used my personal experiences to explain why gender is not always the most important factor

Yes you did and that is not a valid approach. The plural of anecdote is not data. It is, as I said, like using your personal experience with the weather to opine about the greater pattern of climate. It is invalid since your particular patch of weather is simply not going to reflect the overall climate, a sample size of "what I can see around me" is just too small. It is also a horrible idea because using your personal experiences pretty much guarantees unconscious (if not very conscious) bias. That is why pretty much every pseudoscientific "theory" is backed up with reams of anecdote.
 

comparing people to climate change denialists and tin foil hat conspiracy theorists is your thing

Only when they are comparable.

[joejoe099]

Not really, the only country that actually seems like it might favor men is Tevinter. Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism.

 

they get the chantry right at least. Why the hell can't my inquistor make some pants to fit into the that sunburst throne? He personally lead the movement to establish order in the south of thedas, why can't I just reestablish order in their church? I think he'd be rockin those red robes and everything.

[mikeymoonshine]

Not really, the only country that actually seems like it might favor men is Tevinter. Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism.

 

You are correct.   

 

Still Orlais seems to have more women in power than the other nations, from what we have seen at least. Not a new thing either, there re quite a few previous Empresses of Orlais. Tervinter is interesting, Magisters can be female and they always could be but it has the male lead chantry and I am unaware of any female Archons from what I have read. 

[Heimdall]

You are correct.   
 
Still Orlais seems to have more women in power than the other nations, from what we have seen at least. Not a new thing either, there re quite a few previous Empresses of Orlais. Tervinter is interesting, Magisters can be female and they always could be but it has the male lead chantry and I am unaware of any female Archons from what I have read.

This is why I can't wait to explore Tevinter in a future DA game. Though honestly I think the main reason Tevinter has been portrayed as being led mostly by men is to contrast it with Andraste and the south in general. That, and it seems to be easier to portray men as one dimensional cackling evil doers. Must be the goatees.

[mikeymoonshine]

Yes you did and that is not a valid approach. The plural of anecdote is not data. It is, as I said, like using your personal experience with the weather to opine about the greater pattern of climate. It is invalid since your particular patch of weather is simply not going to reflect the overall climate, a sample size of "what I can see around me" is just too small. It is also a horrible idea because using your personal experiences pretty much guarantees unconscious (if not very conscious) bias. That is why pretty much every pseudoscientific "theory" is backed up with reams of anecdote.

 

This is all true but non of it applies to my argument. I didn't try to use my experiences as "data" I used them to make a point about how certain situations can make certain factors more or less important than in other situations. 

[mikeymoonshine]

This is why I can't wait to explore Tevinter in a future DA game. Though honestly I think the main reason Tevinter has been portrayed as being led mostly by men is to contrast it with Andraste and the south in general. That, and it seems to be easier to portray men as one dimensional cackling evil doers. Must be the goatees.

 

If we do go there it would be interesting to see how they handle it. I am not sure if I would want a cartoon villain nation but Dorian was interesting, Maevaris was interesting, even Felix was interesting. Magisters/Tervinter mages are obviously not all the same. 

[Al Foley]

OK, I'll throw in my two cents and say...Cassandra automatically makes up for the lack of all female characters....good and bad...villain or hero... I think Cassandra is my favorite female Video Game character eva.  

[Nathair Nimheil]

This is all true but non of it applies to my argument. I didn't try to use my experiences as "data" I used them to make a point about how certain situations can make certain factors more or less important than in other situations.

Since that's never been denied I must ask to what end, exactly are you emphasising this? Yes, it is quite cold today and so yes, clearly in certain situations certain factors are more important than climate change in predicting the temperature. But so what? It is in the overall pattern that the problem lies. Forest not tree. One swallow does not a level playing field make.

[Heimdall]

If we do go there it would be interesting to see how they handle it. I am not sure if I would want a cartoon villain nation but Dorian was interesting, Maevaris was interesting, even Felix was interesting. Magisters/Tervinter mages are obviously not all the same.

That's why I'm interested. It's just that pretty much a good two thirds of all terrible things in Thedas can be traced back to Tevinter somehow it seems. It's gotten a bit better recently, but in DAO Tevinter was the pretty much the land of all evil.

[Bariudol]

Im so tired of this disscusion. "We need mor female characters", "we need more female foes", "we need more male in multiplayer". Why do we care so much about this? The day we stop acting like this is the day we will be truly equal. What if BioWare decided to make a game with mostly men in it? or women? Its frustrating to even think on making a game, and having to think who will get offended for the lack of: <insert gender or sexual orientation or race or religion here>.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism.

Actually, if all the leaders are male that is a pretty damn good indicator of a lack of equality. How else did such a thing come about? Unless you posit the inherent superiority of men how else could they always end up in charge in an egalitarian society? Consider the Chantry, women are in charge because of bald-faced sexism in their dogma; women are the bosses because men are never even considered for the posts.

[mikeymoonshine]

Since that's never been denied I must ask to what end, exactly are you emphasising this? Yes, it is quite cold today and so yes, clearly in certain situations certain factors are more important than climate change in predicting the temperature. But so what? It is in the overall pattern that the problem lies. Forest not tree. One swallow does not a level playing field make.

 

Level playing fields are difficult if not impossible for many reasons, lots of factors effect equality gender is one of those factors. I believe certain factors are focused on more than others when we don't truly know what factors are the most important. I was just explaining to you why I think that, for example racism and poverty effect ethnic minorities when it comes to equality. The racism problem may not even be the biggest factor but it is the easiest to address so we focus on that and continue to fail at making real change. 

 

Of course the poverty aspect is also at least partially a result of racism more specifically segregation but it just sort of stays that way even though we have moved on greatly from those times. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

Why do we care so much about this? The day we stop acting like this is the day we will be truly equal.

Does that actually make sense to you? Sure, there's clear inequality and bias but if we just stop talking about it it will go away! That's how slavery was abolished, after all, we just ignored it an it went away! That's how women got the right to vote! We all just shut up about it and *poof* - Equality!

The day we are truly equal we can stop talking about it.

[Heimdall]

Actually, if all the leaders are male that is a pretty damn good indicator of a lack of equality. How else did such a thing come about? Unless you posit the inherent superiority of men how else could they always end up in charge in an egalitarian society? Consider the Chantry, women are in charge because of bald-faced sexism in their dogma; women are the bosses because men are never even considered for the posts.

I never said all leaders being male.

That being said, all leaders being one gender doesn't necessarily indicate that the other did not have equal opportunity to lead, just that they didn't. If it's institutionally mandated, like the chantry, that's different.

[mikeymoonshine]

That's why I'm interested. It's just that pretty much a good two thirds of all terrible things in Thedas can be traced back to Tevinter somehow it seems. It's gotten a bit better recently, but in DAO Tevinter was the pretty much the land of all evil.

 

Yeah, I was actually a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see much of the dark side of Orlais. Like a lot of the racism against elves (which is meant to be worse than in Ferelden) felt a bit left out. Not that I wanted it to be a massive feature but portraying the south so positively just makes Tervinter seem worse in comparison. Dorian's alienage argument would have been a lot more convincing if we could have actually seen some of that treatment in the game. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

I was just explaining to you why I think that, for example racism and poverty effect ethnic minorities when it comes to equality.

Well, when someone creates an "Anyone notice the lack of POC villains?" thread, I expect that the discussion will surround race representation.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I never said all leaders being male.

True, you said "Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism." which is non specific, but if you meant "Half of leaders..." then the sentence is rather pointless. If you are trying to distinguish "Most" from "All" then don't, the same response applies to either.
 

That being said, all leaders being one gender doesn't necessarily indicate that the other did not have equal opportunity to lead, just that they didn't.

Lack of opportunity is the most obvious mechanism for that result. While it is true that it's not conclusive it certainly does strongly suggest a lack of egalitarianism. Leadership is not a neutral commodity, how exactly would leadership become gender linked without sacrificing equality of opportunity?

When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebra.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, I was actually a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see much of the dark side of Orlais. Like a lot of the racism against elves (which is meant to be worse than in Ferelden) felt a bit left out. Not that I wanted it to be a massive feature but portraying the south so positively just makes Tervinter seem worse in comparison. Dorian's alienage argument would have been a lot more convincing if we could have actually seen some of that treatment in the game. 

Yep.  Orlais' treatment of the elves was a lot like the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall: It's supposed to be harsher than the norm.  Shame we didn't get to see it, but maybe that's something that the writers have in store for a DLC.

[Heimdall]

True, you said "Leaders being male is not in itself a sign of lacking egalitarianism." which is non specific, but if you meant "Half of leaders..." then the sentence is rather pointless. If you are trying to distinguish "Most" from "All" then don't, the same response applies to either.

I was only responding to the idea that other nations are less egalitarian than Orlais because most of them appear to be ruled by men.

Lack of opportunity is the most obvious mechanism for that result. While it is true that it's not conclusive it certainly does strongly suggest a lack of egalitarianism. Leadership is not a neutral commodity, how exactly would leadership become gender linked without sacrificing equality of opportunity?When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebra.

Not really, that conclusion only holds if you assume equality of opportunity necessarily leads to a diversity of leadership, which is by no means true. What you suggest is a possible reason, but there's no reason to jump to the conclusion that leadership has become gender linked.

Though let's bring this conversation back to earth. None of this actually applies in Thedas because the rulers are mostly determined by their dynasty, gender and possibly even their own qualifications being incidental.

[TheLittleBird]

Yep.  Orlais' treatment of the elves was a lot like the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall: It's supposed to be harsher than the norm.  Shame we didn't get to see it, but maybe that's something that the writers have in store for a DLC.

 

Seems like a missed opportunity concerning Briala. The whole character of Briala in Inquisition seems a bit... odd. She doesn't really seem that important as The Masked Empire made her out to be.