34 réponses à ce sujet

[Radko]

 

 

 

 

 

 

DAI is not a bad game, but it is not perfect either. I did not make this topic to bash the developers or to fight with people who disagree with me. Quite the contrary, I like to submit few constructive ideas and to welcome discussion with everyone, especially those who have a different experience with the game than my own.

 

I think we are so passionate about DA/ME games because we expect a certain standard from Bioware games that is in a league of it`s own. For me Dragon Age Origins was a masterpiece and I expect every Bioware game to live up to that standard. I expect that the good things that were praised in these games to be improved upon, not dumbed down - like what happened with the "AI Tactics" system. From DAO to DA2 to DAI we can see this awesome RPG system (beloved by many) needlessly simplified and marginalized.

 

 

 

Recently I was watching an interview with the hard rock band AC DC ( https://www.youtube....h?v=jNhBogR0b5c ), where they talk how the fans are "a member of the band by default" and how "Fans are loyal to AC DC, because AC DC is loyal to the Fans". Those statements made me think about the type of "relationship" Bioware has with us - the fans of this franchise. It made me realize that Bioware is kind of a "rock band" a bit out of tune with its core audience. As the time passes, I have a feeling that some of their "music" changed too much to cater to the consumer who listens to the songs once or twice and than quickly moves on to something else on the charts.

But there are also many of us, who like to listen to that "Dragon Age" album many, many times. We love to blog about it, dissect it to the smallest detail, talk to our friends passionately and write silly forum posts about the game.

 

I think that a good strategy to remedy this disconnection is to do an extensive beta test for the people who (example) preorder the game. People who will get down and dirty and give you honest feedback, without any crap. No need to develop your games in this artificial, "safe" bubble where everyone pats your back and where the game journalists you invite for "early impressions" kiss your butt to heaven and back. I can not believe that not one of those hundreds of journalists and youtubers you invited haven`t noticed the keyboard and mouse controls being off? Or the tactical camera often getting stuck in the terrain, or the tedious UI and the endless pages to browse through?

 

There are many examples of games that turned out ten times better because of the process of beta testing and the fan feedback that followed. Look at Divinity: Original Sin and what it accomplished in such a short time.

 

 

 

Not just the UI improvement. The game systems, the balance, the itemization and the overall polish of the game was significantly improved because of the beta testing. Same examples can be given for games like Grim Dawn that improved a lot in the last three months. How about Pillars of Eternity recently and the fan feedback that made Obsidian rethink their combat system?

Dragon Age Inquisition is probably so huge now, that is not possible for the in-house Bioware testers to cover everything properly. Plus, the level of honest feedback you get from people you pay to do something can sometimes be questionable at least.

 

- If there was some "early access" to the game, the keyboard and mouse controls would never pass in this state.

- If this game was lets say 6 months into "early access" testing, the UI would also not win over any fan approval. ( talking about the PC version UI ). 

-The players would immediately point to the lack of a walk option, which is now a great immersion breaker for many.

-The tactics and the AI would be expanded upon, which would make this game a joy to play

-The tactical camera and the zoom level?

- The players would notice the odd and little in number hairstyles in the character creator. Just look at what the amazing modder Adela did in just a week, by herself, not having a prior knowledge of frostbite at all: http://forum.bioware...ols/?p=18007464

- Speaking of mods and not supporting them, I think it is a big, big mistake. Forget about Skyrim, look at Morrowind for maker`s sake: a game 13 years old, still kept alive and playable by mods and addons. No company or studio can match the content or the artistic freedom of the enthusiastic RPG communities (like this one reading my ramblings).

There are many more things to say, but this post is already too long. Let's just work together more in the future and let us be a part of the game polishing / finishing touches process.

 

Thanks.

[Radko]

Hey thanks Alozaps and Enzoone and sorry for the long post:)

[scrutinizer]

Well, what's there to say, agree wholeheartedly.

Your lofty comparison to AC/DC and music industry in general stands correct (since we consider entertainment industry) - Bioware once was THE band everyone looked up to, with the capability to rock any place they went to. But as they grew older, the vocals stated sounding off, the song became generic etc. The loyal fanbase indeed feels disappointment, but the new direction opened the doors for more people.

At the end of the day, it's business.

 

EDIT:

Got a call from work and while talking hit the 'Post' button, without having finished the bracets sentence.

[Radko]

 

 

 

Well, what's there to say, agree wholeheartedly.

Your lofty comparison to AC/DC and music industry in general stands correct (since we are ) - Bioware once was THE band everyone looked up to, with the capability to rock any place they went to. But as they grew older, the vocals stated sounding off, the song became generic etc. The loyal fanbase indeed feels disappointment, but the new direction opened the doors for more people.

At the end of the day, it's business.

 

Good points there my friend. But, I have heard many times Bioware referring to their work as "art". I do not know where the balance between making money and delivering a polished product is.

[Kantr]

I would love to have Origins tactics systems back in the next game. Or at least the one used in DA2

[BanditGR]

One of the better posts, I've read in these forums for some time. Since we are...beta testing the game right now apparently, wouldn't it be better (and much easier for everyone) to schedule this BEFORE the actual release ? I can positively say that no PC tester in his right mind would think not to indicate the obvious issues with the tactical camera, the lack of AI control or the simplistic character development. I won't even go into actual storyline related bugs.

[saladinbob]

The problem for Bioware, to extend upon your analogy, is that they've gone from making Rock music to easy listening. Worse than that is that they told everyone their new album was best Rock album they'd ever released so you can imagine people's shock when they put the record on expecting to hear ACDC and the Lighthouse family comes on

[scrutinizer]

One of the better posts, I've read in these forums for some time. Since we are...beta testing the game right now apparently, wouldn't it be better (and much easier for everyone) to schedule this BEFORE the actual release ? I can positively say that no PC tester in his right mind would think not to indicate the obvious issues with the tactical camera, the lack of AI control or the simplistic character development. I won't even go into actual storyline related bugs.

Valid points. 

The practice of 'Early Access' look shady to same (why would I pay for an unfinished product?), but you are aware of the alpha/beta stage of the game and have the possibility to provide feedback, which may lead to the developer's altering certain gameplay mechanics. It's a good approach, in which the quality of the final product prevails.

Pushing out an unfinished game while claiming (lying) it is an absolute marvel of an RPG (I can argue it's more an action game than an RPG, but that's not the topic at hand), while letting the first wave of players assume the role of beta testers is not a good approach - it ruins the delicate developer-customer trust.

 

Peace.

[saladinbob]

I don't mind pre-ordering from EA/Bioware's site and getting an invite for early access. So long as they're willing to listen I'd sooner a working game than some DLC. What I am not willing to do, however, is pay extra for the privilege of having a working game. At the point at which I part with my cash, I expect to have a product as advertised, that is in generally good working order and is designed to be operated on my platform of choice. I don't have money to waste and as I've said in a prior thread, due to bioware constantly changing protagonist, I have no emotional investment in this series so had I known the aforementioned issues existed with the PC, had the bearded chap and his Aussie side kick not mislead me via a Twitch broadcast about the game being playable with a M+KB, I would not have bought this game until such time as these issues where fixed.

 

And this really does open up a wider issue over electronic goods. If I buy a physical object that isn't as advertised, I can get a refund. If I buy software, I cannot, which opens up the entire system to abuse - and it is being abused by marketing departments of several publishers.

[Waukeen25]

OH but didn't you know they are beta testing the game.  And patch 2.  And after that the DLC and subsequent patches.  I have played Bioware games for a very long time and quite frankly this has done me in.

 

DA2 and the lack of variety in the maps (among other issues) showed just how lazy Bioware were starting to get.

 

ME3 and the fact that they ignored, yes ignored, the choices made in the previous 2 games to give us three different flavored cupcakes for an ending.  SPOILER even with the red, green and blue frosting they all tasted the same in the end.

 

DAI is a game by PC gamers for PC gamers^W^W^W^W^W sorry, a console game made by former PC gamers and badly ported over to PC with very little, if any, testing on a PC.

 

So the question here is do we capitulate and let EAWare continue to give no feedback or information about these things or do we finally say enough is enough and just stop pre-ordering these kind of half-ashed games?  And I am not just referring to DAI here (looking at you ACU, which I have not gotten but you can't help but hear about stuff like that).  Or do we just stop supporting them on general principle until they get their act together and remember the simple statement of 'If you say your going to do something do it'.

 

While I am not one of those having major issues I can tell you this, the game was not tested on PC otherwise there is no way alot of these issues would exist (CTD, black screen, Tac Camera, stuttering, hitching, etc etc).

 

We should also ask those who did the reviews and gave praise ahead of time why they didn't mention any of this in said review.  Mainly referring to PCGamer here.  What was different about their copy that allowed them to play without any apparent issues?  EAWare is not the only one we should be taking to task here.

 

In the end it doesn't matter because we ultimately believed the BS and have to take our fair share of the blame.

 

Operation Cupcakes for Bioware is a go BTW, more to come.

[Spectre Impersonator]

I prefer simplification to all those annoying behavior, RPG features that I'll never use. If it's straightforward and user-friendly, I'll give it a try.

[saladinbob]

I prefer simplification to all those annoying behavior, RPG features that I'll never use. If it's straightforward and user-friendly, I'll give it a try.

 

Then you're playing the wrong genre because RPG features are funnily enough, what RPGs are about.

[scrutinizer]

So the question here is do we capitulate and let EAWare continue to give no feedback or information about these things or do we finally say enough is enough and just stop pre-ordering these kind of half-ashed games?  And I am not just referring to DAI here (looking at you ACU, which I have not gotten but you can't help but hear about stuff like that).  Or do we just stop supporting them on general principle until they get their act together and remember the simple statement of 'If you say your going to do something do it'.

That would require a collective effort from players on an unprecedented scale. Not gonna happen. For every you or me, there are 10 players who would buy anyway.

 

We should also ask those who did the reviews and gave praise ahead of time why they didn't mention any of this in said review.  Mainly referring to PCGamer here.  What was different about their copy that allowed them to play without any apparent issues? 

Oh, the so-called 'professional' reviews lost credibility long time ago. You have to actively search for independent reviewers, but as they gain fame, the gain exposure, and ultimately the big companies hold sway over them.

 

And this really does open up a wider issue over electronic goods. If I buy a physical object that isn't as advertised, I can get a refund. If I buy software, I cannot, which opens up the entire system to abuse - and it is being abused by marketing departments of several publishers.

Indeed. If the players do not stand firm against such malpractice, it will continue like all is cool and dandy.

[Radko]

I prefer simplification to all those annoying behavior, RPG features that I'll never use. If it's straightforward and user-friendly, I'll give it a try.

 

There were sets of predefined "tank, dps, ranged and controll" in DAO, so you do not have to bother with the system at all. However, in the same time it was complex enough for the in-depth rpg player to enjoy too.

Win / Win for both the casual and the hardcore player. That it why I say it was brilliant system, if not one of the best RPG systems ever made in gaming.

[Jackal19851111]

Excellent post and I hope the devs read this

[Mitchcraft]

People post as if only the PC version got a raw deal, you are not alone, us console owners have a good amount of problems also that should have easily been picked up on and would have been  if there was proper testing done. Lets not just act as if it's only one platform that is full of bugs when it's all of them. Yes beta testing should have been done by us gamers for sure!

[Radko]

You are right Mitchcraft. We should not in any way exclude any platform. But many would agree that the game is at it`s worst on the PC right now, that is why my post leans there a bit more.

[Mitchcraft]

You are right Mitchcraft. We should not in any way exclude any platform. But many would agree that the game is at it`s worst on the PC right now, that is why my post leans there a bit more.

 

I believe that, PC ports seem to always get the worst of things. I really don't get why they never gave us the chance to beta test on all platforms. Well maybe i do, money. We are pretty much the beta testers just now but i have actually stopped playing. I was hoping the recent patch would have fixed some issues before i finish my first play through as my favourite character build but no luck so now it's sitting there doing nothing. One thing i have learned from this experience is that i will not pre-order a game ever again. I never used to until i got a PS4 and only started due to lack of games available but i refuse to be part of something that allows developers/publishers to put out games and use their day one buyers as their testers when in fact we should be treated better for paying full price while others wait and end up getting it cheaper and all the bugs fixed for them. I watched a video a week before release on youtube and he said do not pre-order but never said why while he only mentioned the good things about the game so i am guessing it was a deal made that nothing bad could be said until after release if you wanted to make a preview.

 

I should have listened to that warning and will not make the same mistake again.

[Jackal19851111]

At the very least they should allow us to beta test the patches, considering the reception of the last one!

[Mitchcraft]

At the very least they should allow us to beta test the patches, considering the reception of the last one!

 

Yeah after reading the responses and the fixes that really have done nothing for the bugs i have encountered i am actually scared to start my game up. How ridiculous is that lol

[Spectre Impersonator]

Then you're playing the wrong genre because RPG features are funnily enough, what RPGs are about.

I guess I'm playing the right genre though, because the mechanics work fine for me.

[Waukeen25]

That would require a collective effort from players on an unprecedented scale. Not gonna happen. For every you or me, there are 10 players who would buy anyway.

 

Oh, the so-called 'professional' reviews lost credibility long time ago. You have to actively search for independent reviewers, but as they gain fame, the gain exposure, and ultimately the big companies hold sway over them.

 

Indeed. If the players do not stand firm against such malpractice, it will continue like all is cool and dandy.

 

Oh I understand all the points you made but trouble is nothing seems to change, if anything it gets worse as time goes on.

 

I can understand the distance that EAWare is taking on this with the community because they probably don't want to do another Extended Cut for a game, trouble is that isn't what this is about.  What this is about is crap programming (crashes, stuttering etc), crap design (Tac Cam, MP maps etc) and generally crap support (the great Patch 2 and an amazingly poor taste post made by one BWEAmelia http://forum.bioware...e/?p=17982582).

 

What I dont understand is why people are so willing to be sheep and let companies run roughshod over them.  If I was to have been QAing something like this and I let it go in the state it is in I would not have a job.

 

At this point in time the best thing EAWare can do is to stickie a post at the top of all the forums saying "SORRY, we F$^*&ed up.  Working to fix and here are the plans" instead we get silence or BWE's like Amelia pouring fuel on the fire.  This is not going to end well which is a shame because I honestly was hoping Bioware would not end up another Dice....looks like I was wrong.

[Mitchcraft]

Oh I understand all the points you made but trouble is nothing seems to change, if anything it gets worse as time goes on.

 

I can understand the distance that EAWare is taking on this with the community because they probably don't want to do another Extended Cut for a game, trouble is that isn't what this is about.  What this is about is crap programming (crashes, stuttering etc), crap design (Tac Cam, MP maps etc) and generally crap support (the great Patch 2 and an amazingly poor taste post made by one BWEAmelia http://forum.bioware...e/?p=17982582).

 

What I dont understand is why people are so willing to be sheep and let companies run roughshod over them.  If I was to have been QAing something like this and I let it go in the state it is in I would not have a job.

 

At this point in time the best thing EAWare can do is to stickie a post at the top of all the forums saying "SORRY, we F$^*&ed up.  Working to fix and here are the plans" instead we get silence or BWE's like Amelia pouring fuel on the fire.  This is not going to end well which is a shame because I honestly was hoping Bioware would not end up another Dice....looks like I was wrong.

 

Wow that first reply post from Bioware was completely condescending and uncalled for. Absolutely disgusting way to reply to people who pay their bills and bought their product and when full of bugs have the right to be upset!

[Radko]

I understand your frustration Waukeen, but let`s not focus our rage on person(s), may he / she work for EA / Bioware or not.

 

Lets try to offer some constructive ideas and work with what we have at hand and what products we might receive in the future.

[dizog]

Pre-testing is not beneficial from a business perspective. (consoles)

Many would simply not buy this game.

 

 

If the game comes out only on a PC, a different matter. But who will refuse additional income?