150 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

It'd be boring if there were no messes to clean up

Hawke had enough messes to deal with in Act 3.  Merrill summoning demons would've been at least as bad as Ander's little display of pointless rebellion.

[Br3admax]

Well, if demon summoning is that safe...

Or if Merrill is that stupid. Hint: she is. 

 

 

Something it wouldn't be able to do any more easily than any other demon once banished to the Fade.

So just as easily as before. It's one of the strongest Pride demons ever encountered. Anything that was summoned to take on an entire army is not to be trifled with. 

[SgtSteel91]

uh yes they sill are, gameplay/story again

 

doesn't matter how many pride demons he fights, they will still be dangerous adversaries

 

Someone certainly doesn't like to challenge himself

[Xilizhra]

Or if Merrill is that stupid. Hint: she is.

Oddly, she's never the one to get possessed.

 

 

So just as easily as before. It's one of the strongest Pride demons ever encountered. Anything that was summoned to take on an entire army is not to be trifled with. 

And would be even stronger if it became an abomination, yes?

[Steelcan]

Oddly, she's never the one to get possessed.

because Marethari threw herself on the grenade for whatever reason

[TEWR]

Not for me.  I disagree with Solas and Merrill.  Merrill and Sebastian are the only DA2 companions who I end up on the rivalry path with and, while I start strong with Solas, I quickly lose approval with him in my 'canon' decisions.  It's probably telling that the mages that I enjoy the most are Wynne, Vivienne, and Dorian. 

 

See, that's all I ask for, consistency.

 

Solas also recognizes that Blood Magic is dangerous, it can be used like any other magic but it can also lead to obsession.
  Furthermore, Solas is actually smart enough to not make deals with demons, unlike Merrill.

Spoiler

(He's also a quasi divine figure so comparing him to a moronic mortal like Merrill isn't really a good idea)

 

Merrill doesn't recognize the dangers posed by demons, Solas does, that is the difference.

 

Would've been nice if you had put that bit in spoiler tags (even though this is a spoilerized section), because I didn't finish the game yet. Ah well, no matter.

 

But it only enhances my point, if he's saying such things. Things that Merrill espouses as well (blood magic having the potential to be bad) and you ignore.

[TheJediSaint]

because Marethari threw herself on the grenade for whatever reason

Love is weird that way.

[SgtSteel91]

In any case, the mirror thing seems to have been dropped by Inquisition, as I set Merrill to be romanced and kept the mirror intact and Varric says she's looking after the City Elves after the Kirkwall Rebellion.

 

And Hawke's all "I hate Blood Mages" so maybe he got Merrill to not use Blood Magic in a softer way than on the rivalry path.

[Xilizhra]

because Marethari threw herself on the grenade for whatever reason

Thus making Audacity even more powerful and more inclined to summon a demonic cascade? Brilliant.

[TEWR]

At any rate I'm going to bed now. I suspect when I return there will be 28 pages that I'll end up saying "**** it" and ignoring and starting from the last one.

[daveliam]

Thus making Audacity even more powerful and more inclined to summon a demonic cascade? Brilliant.

 

In order to prevent Merrill from doing it.  She did it out of love for Merrill.  She saw which way the wind was blowing and couldn't stand to allow Merrill to do it herself.  She sacrificed herself for Merrill.  It's called a sacrifice because it means that there's no favorable outcome.  Her choices were:  wait around until Merrill succumbs to the Pride demon (it's very telling that Merrill was too prideful to admit that she wasn't in full control) and have no control over the when/how of the possession -OR- take the bullet herself, thus saving Merrill and having some control over the when/how of the possession and allowing Hawke to finish her off.

 

Is there an element of 'pride' in Marethari's actions as well?  Sure.  She assumes that she can handle it better than Merrill can (and, in my opinion, she's right).  But all she did was speed up the inevitable.  Audacity had found a willing, weak 'victim' and Marethari did what she could to try to minimize the loss that was inevitable at that point. 

 

That's how I read the situation.

[Steelcan]

Thus making Audacity even more powerful and more inclined to summon a demonic cascade? Brilliant.

I agree sacrificing herself for a waste of good oxygen like Merrill is a poor idea

[dragonflight288]

Just read the OP, and one problem with the theory, and it's a big one. 

 

The crossroads is close to the Fade, and is already near several open Eluvians.

 

However, Audacity is NOT in the Fade, he's trapped in the mortal world and bound to a statue. He's nowhere near the crossroads. 

[TheJediSaint]

In order to prevent Merrill from doing it.  She did it out of love for Merrill.  She saw which way the wind was blowing and couldn't stand to allow Merrill to do it herself.  She sacrificed herself for Merrill.  It's called a sacrifice because it means that there's no favorable outcome.  Her choices were:  wait around until Merrill succumbs to the Pride demon (it's very telling that Merrill was too prideful to admit that she wasn't in full control) and have no control over the when/how of the possession -OR- take the bullet herself, thus saving Merrill and having some control over the when/how of the possession and allowing Hawke to finish her off.

 

Is there an element of 'pride' in Marethari's actions as well?  Sure.  She assumes that she can handle it better than Merrill can (and, in my opinion, she's right).  But all she did was speed up the inevitable.  Audacity had found a willing, weak 'victim' and Marethari did what she could to try to minimize the loss that was inevitable at that point. 

 

That's how I read the situation.

I've been making this same exact argument for years.

[Xilizhra]

In order to prevent Merrill from doing it.  She did it out of love for Merrill.  She saw which way the wind was blowing and couldn't stand to allow Merrill to do it herself.  She sacrificed herself for Merrill.  It's called a sacrifice because it means that there's no favorable outcome.  Her choices were:  wait around until Merrill succumbs to the Pride demon (it's very telling that Merrill was too prideful to admit that she wasn't in full control) and have no control over the when/how of the possession -OR- take the bullet herself, thus saving Merrill and having some control over the when/how of the possession and allowing Hawke to finish her off.

Or banish Audacity and be done with it. Assuming that the Eluvian would even have been a gateway, which logically speaking it could not possibly be. I'm nearly certain that Marethari was the one who succumbed to Audacity. Why, I'm not sure, but the themes of pride make it likely that it was to prevent Merrill from upstaging her.

 

And Marethari could have done any number of things if she was genuine... like, say, jumping off the side of the mountain, or ordering the clan to take up sniper positions around her before she went all demonic so that the clan would be able to contribute to killing her, in addition to not throwing Merrill under the bus by keeping everything a secret (I suspect that that too was deliberate).

 

Also, the magical barrier blocking the way into Pride's End is gone by Act 2, replaced with an overturned cart. Which makes me suspect that Marethari might have been possessed even that far back.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Solas also recognizes that Blood Magic is dangerous, it can be used like any other magic but it can also lead to obsession.
  Furthermore, Solas is actually smart enough to not make deals with demons, unlike Merrill.  (He's also a quasi divine figure so comparing him to a moronic mortal like Merrill isn't really a good idea)

 

Merrill doesn't recognize the dangers posed by demons, Solas does, that is the difference.

I dunno, she's done a better job of handling the whole affair than most mages we've met, no sacrificing bystanders, no actually demon summonings or bindings,she's probably not entirely clueless to the dangers just sees it as a calculated risk. Her obsession seems to me focused more on the mirror than blood magic, she like Solas also views it as simply a tool, same goes for the demon he's a tool to help her fix the mirror and that's where the real danger is. She's very mindful of possession but the trouble is that's all she's mindful of and rather oblivious that possession might not be the only potential danger with demons, like inadvertently letting them cross over through other means she might be unaware off. So long as you can get her to let go of the mirror she's basically out of the woods.

 

Rivalmance ftw

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thus making Audacity even more powerful and more inclined to summon a demonic cascade? Brilliant.

Indeed, but at least Merrill would have a CHANCE of survival that way. And that is what this is all about for Marethari.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed, but at least Merrill would have a CHANCE of survival that way. And that is what this is all about for Marethari.

But... aside from the Eluvian not possibly working as a gateway out of a statue in the physical world, banishing Audacity would have left Merrill perfectly safe.

 

Or, hell, even in the hypothetical where the Eluvian thing was true, just tell Merrill before getting possessed.

[Steelcan]

Are we going to talk about what people should have done? In DA2?


Seriously?

[TheJediSaint]

I dunno, she's done a better job of handling the whole affair than most mages we've met, no sacrificing bystanders, no actually demon summonings or bindings,she's probably not entirely clueless to the dangers just sees it as a calculated risk. Her obsession seems to me focused more on the mirror than blood magic, she like Solas also views it as simply a tool, same goes for the demon he's a tool to help her fix the mirror and that's where the real danger is. She's very mindful of possession but the trouble is that's all she's mindful of and rather oblivious that possession might not be the only potential danger with demons, like inadvertently letting them cross over through other means she might be unaware off. So long as you can get her to let go of the mirror she's basically out of the woods.

 

Rivalmance ftw

Merrill's obsessed, not evil.  And yes, rivalmance for the win!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just read the OP, and one problem with the theory, and it's a big one. 

 

The crossroads is close to the Fade, and is already near several open Eluvians.

 

However, Audacity is NOT in the Fade, he's trapped in the mortal world and bound to a statue. He's nowhere near the crossroads. 

You didn't get to see Audacity's last steps in his plans with Merrill, since Marethari cut them short with an alternative.

 

Audacity had probably planned for Merrill, to either bring the Eluvian to the cave, or to invoke some sort of ritual which wold grant him access to the Eluvian, and Merrill would be one naive enough to comply.

[Noelemahc]

Marethari wasn't the one making the portal to Hell

Marethari was the one who was aware the clan was basically bullying Merrill over her obsession with Eluvians and blood magic and kind of went out of her way to drive events in the general direction of the worst outcome imaginable for this story.

 

It's like teaching someone that mines and minefields are bad for your health by purposefully striding into a minefield to perform a tap-dancing act.

 

She's like the kind of parent that thinks spraying their autistic kid with water is a better solution than actually paying attention to what they're saying, as one of the several ways Hawke can resolve this whole mess is basically talking Merrill out of the whole Eluvian thing (and the way the talk goes, Marethari apparently NEVER did this).

[Milan92]

Merrill's obsessed, not evil.  And yes, rivalmance for the win!

 

 

If you care about Merril then rivalmance is the only way to go.

[daveliam]

Or banish Audacity and be done with it. Assuming that the Eluvian would even have been a gateway, which logically speaking it could not possibly be. I'm nearly certain that Marethari was the one who succumbed to Audacity. Why, I'm not sure, but the themes of pride make it likely that it was to prevent Merrill from upstaging her.

 

And Marethari could have done any number of things if she was genuine... like, say, jumping off the side of the mountain, or ordering the clan to take up sniper positions around her before she went all demonic so that the clan would be able to contribute to killing her, in addition to not throwing Merrill under the bus by keeping everything a secret (I suspect that that too was deliberate).

 

Also, the magical barrier blocking the way into Pride's End is gone by Act 2, replaced with an overturned cart. Which makes me suspect that Marethari might have been possessed even that far back.

 

See and maybe it's because I'm a teacher and I work with youth (and, frankly, Merrill is a bit child-like and was her apprentice), but my interpretation is completely different.  It was the final lesson for Merrill.  She needed to see how her actions led to that loss in order to stop her from doing it again in the future.  Marethari knew she had to sacrifice herself with Audacity in order to prevent Merrill from becoming an Abomination.  If she had made that sacrifice in secret, then Merrill would just fall victim to the very next demon that came along and Marethari's actions would have been in vain.  She needed Merrill to learn that her actions cause death.  The most effective way to do this was to allow Merrill to see, first hand, what her actions caused and then have to live with those actions as a constant reminder to avoid demons in the future.  I absolutely understand what Marethari was doing in this situation.  Sometimes, the 'wise elder' needs to do that in order for prideful youth to fully grasp consequences. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

But... aside from the Eluvian not possibly working as a gateway out of a statue in the physical world, banishing Audacity would have left Merrill perfectly safe.

 

Or, hell, even in the hypothetical where the Eluvian thing was true, just tell Merrill before getting possessed.

Marethari spent the better part of seven years telling Merrill she should drop her persuit of the Eluvian...