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Marethari was telling the truth, after all.


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#76
Xilizhra

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If you care about Merril then rivalmance is the only way to go.

 

Bullshit.

 

 

See and maybe it's because I'm a teacher and I work with youth (and, frankly, Merrill is a bit child-like and was her apprentice), but my interpretation is completely different.  It was the final lesson for Merrill.  She needed to see how her actions led to that loss in order to stop her from doing it again in the future.  Marethari knew she had to sacrifice herself with Audacity in order to prevent Merrill from becoming an Abomination.  If she had made that sacrifice in secret, then Merrill would just fall victim to the very next demon that came along and Marethari's actions would have been in vain.  She needed Merrill to learn that her actions cause death.  The most effective way to do this was to allow Merrill to see, first hand, what her actions caused and then have to live with those actions as a constant reminder to avoid demons in the future.  I absolutely understand what Marethari was doing in this situation.  Sometimes, the 'wise elder' needs to do that in order for prideful youth to fully grasp consequences. 

That makes no gorram sense, puts Merrill in far more danger than she would have been in otherwise (not to mention Hawke and company), and sets up Merrill to be murdered by her own clan. It also doesn't answer the question of why banishment wouldn't have worked. And again, the Eluvian couldn't possibly have been an escape hatch, so it's all moot.

 

 

Marethari spent the better part of seven years telling Merrill she should drop her persuit of the Eluvian...

And yet refused to say why?


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#77
daveliam

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Marethari was the one who was aware the clan was basically bullying Merrill over her obsession with Eluvians and blood magic and kind of went out of her way to drive events in the general direction of the worst outcome imaginable for this story.

 

It's like teaching someone that mines and minefields are bad for your health by purposefully striding into a minefield to perform a tap-dancing act.

 

She's like the kind of parent that thinks spraying their autistic kid with water is a better solution than actually paying attention to what they're saying.

 

Your argument would have merit had she jumped right to her final action.  But she didn't.  She tried to reason with Merrill.  She tried to bargain with Merrill.  She tried to enlist others to convince Merrill when she saw she wasn't being successful.  As an extreme action, she banished Merrill in order to protect her and the rest of the clan.  None of this worked.  Merrill was too prideful to turn off of her path and Marethari saw no other options after expending effort in so many other ways to convince her. 



#78
Xilizhra

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Your argument would have merit had she jumped right to her final action.  But she didn't.  She tried to reason with Merrill.  She tried to bargain with Merrill.  She tried to enlist others to convince Merrill when she saw she wasn't being successful.  As an extreme action, she banished Merrill in order to protect her and the rest of the clan.  None of this worked.  Merrill was too prideful to turn off of her path and Marethari saw no other options after expending effort in so many other ways to convince her. 

Other then, you know, backing up her arguments with an actual reason?


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#79
TEWR

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In order to prevent Merrill from doing it.  She did it out of love for Merrill.  She saw which way the wind was blowing and couldn't stand to allow Merrill to do it herself.  She sacrificed herself for Merrill.  It's called a sacrifice because it means that there's no favorable outcome.  Her choices were:  wait around until Merrill succumbs to the Pride demon (it's very telling that Merrill was too prideful to admit that she wasn't in full control) and have no control over the when/how of the possession -OR- take the bullet herself, thus saving Merrill and having some control over the when/how of the possession and allowing Hawke to finish her off.

 

Is there an element of 'pride' in Marethari's actions as well?  Sure.  She assumes that she can handle it better than Merrill can (and, in my opinion, she's right).  But all she did was speed up the inevitable.  Audacity had found a willing, weak 'victim' and Marethari did what she could to try to minimize the loss that was inevitable at that point. 

 

That's how I read the situation.

 

I'd argue the love bit, or at least that it's not the best type of love out there. I mean it's love, but it's.... warped in expression. Marethari's always been a person who falls into the My Beloved Smother trope, as she kept Merrill from having a healthy social life within her own clan by forcing her to study since she was a child. Her pride makes her think that only she can possibly be right, because she is the Keeper. No one else could possibly have a point on a matter that contests Marethari's (limited) viewpoint.

 

She's a Keeper, she's a Mage, she's a mother figure, and she's old as hell. She's prideful as all hell. Indeed, she keeps the clan around not because they need to be there, but because she wants to be there (it's to the point where some members are willing to go the route Velanna's "clan" went when she was forcibly exiled).

 

Demons are drawn to those with power, literal and figurative. Marethari has both. She has the powers of a Mage, the training of one, and influence over not just her clan but others as well. Throw in the divide between the two respective Mages and there's ample reason to suspect that Audacity was after the Keeper all along (as Merrill has only being a Mage as her schtick) but it's also possible that he really didn't care by that point.

 

There's a third option: Go the frick to Kirkwall and bloody talk about this with Hawke and Merrill while also having your clan on alert. Hell there are more options then that. Saying there are only two options falls into the false dichotomy that plagues a lot of things. You always have options at your disposal, not merely A and B.

 

But Marethari didn't even want to study the Eluvians (from DAO and DAII) so her pulling information out of her ass doesn't fly.

 

Your argument would have merit had she jumped right to her final action.  But she didn't.  She tried to reason with Merrill.  She tried to bargain with Merrill.  She tried to enlist others to convince Merrill when she saw she wasn't being successful.  As an extreme action, she banished Merrill in order to protect her and the rest of the clan.  None of this worked.  Merrill was too prideful to turn off of her path and Marethari saw no other options after expending effort in so many other ways to convince her. 

 

I'd hardly call "having members of the clan revile her" enlisting others to convince her, particularly if lies are fed to them to turn them all against her. And if you mean Hawke, well she did break her deal with Merrill. The deal was that if the Varterral was killed the item would be given to Merrill. Hawke is merely a witness to the arrangement.

 

And she didn't banish Merrill, Merrill exiled herself. Marethari will tell you that she's not the one sending Merrill away, Merrill's doing it of her own free will (something Merrill says as well).

 

Now... hopefully this will be my actual going to bed moment.


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#80
daveliam

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That makes no gorram sense, puts Merrill in far more danger than she would have been in otherwise (not to mention Hawke and company), and sets up Merrill to be murdered by her own clan. It also doesn't answer the question of why banishment wouldn't have worked. And again, the Eluvian couldn't possibly have been an escape hatch, so it's all moot.

 

Merrill never got murdered by the clan in any of playthroughs and I only allowed her to complete the Eluvian once (just to see what happened). 

 

You claim the Eluvian isn't an escape hatch, but I'm not convinced by your evidence, frankly.  And, again, Merrill was demon-bait without this hard lesson.  Had Audacity been taken care of in another way (assuming that would work), Merrill would just wander blindly into the grasp of the next demon.  It was either this, accepting that Merrill was inevitably determined to become possessed, or following her around for the rest of her life and shielding her because she was incapable of learning otherwise. 



#81
Deanna

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Pfff all eluvians are locked, it requires a key for each one, however Briala has a passphrase that opens all of them. Also why the freak would demons be trying to come out of the eluvians? The crossroads is not the fade which is where demons reside. Why would anyone think that? The eluvians are portals nothing more and the demons know this, (or at least the demon in The Masked Empire did) also the only way for a demon to enter the mortal realm is possessing a mage not going through an eluvian.

#82
CrazyRah

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Remember when Marethari said Audacity was going to use Merril's eluvian to cross into the physical world?

And now Morrigan says the Crossroads is close to the Fade and someone with enough power could cross from one to the other.

That settles that, then.

 

Had completely forgotten about that. It does settle it



#83
Noelemahc

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 I absolutely understand what Marethari was doing in this situation.  Sometimes, the 'wise elder' needs to do that in order for prideful youth to fully grasp consequences. 

Sometimes the wise elder should try more productive methods than repeating "demons bad, demons bad, demons bad" and then immediately jumping to sacrificing themselves to one. It's a sign of an unwise elder, because she totes-magotes didn't consider what would happen to the clan, to the clan's opinion of Merrill, Hawke, humans, demons and the letter M.



#84
Xilizhra

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Merrill never got murdered by the clan in any of playthroughs and I only allowed her to complete the Eluvian once (just to see what happened).

Thanks solely to Hawke's intervention.

 

 

You claim the Eluvian isn't an escape hatch, but I'm not convinced by your evidence, frankly.  And, again, Merrill was demon-bait without this hard lesson.  Had Audacity been taken care of in another way (assuming that would work), Merrill would just wander blindly into the grasp of the next demon.  It was either this, accepting that Merrill was inevitably determined to become possessed, or following her around for the rest of her life and shielding her because she was incapable of learning otherwise. 

Funnily, I friended her and she never showed any signs of being demon bait in the future despite the onus of the whole crisis being placed on Marethari. I think Marethari badly underestimated Merrill either way.



#85
Steelcan

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Why did Marethari try to dissuade Merrill from competing the Eluvian?

Because its dangerous

#86
dragonflight288

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You didn't get to see Audacity's last steps in his plans with Merrill, since Marethari cut them short with an alternative.

 

Audacity had probably planned for Merrill, to either bring the Eluvian to the cave, or to invoke some sort of ritual which wold grant him access to the Eluvian, and Merrill would be one naive enough to comply.

 

Audacity got exactly what he wanted without Merrill. He got out of the statue and possessed a powerful mage. 

 

Hypotheticals mean nothing, results say everything, and the result of everything was Audacity possessed Merethari. Using your logic, for all we know Merethari was the target the whole time, and Merrill learning blood magic and the eluvian itself was the bait. 


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#87
TheJediSaint

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Why did Marethari try to dissuade Merrill from competing the Eluvian?

Because its dangerous

Just ask Tamlen.



#88
Steelcan

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Pfff all eluvians are locked, it requires a key for each one, however Briala has a passphrase that opens all of them. Also why the freak would demons be trying to come out of the eluvians? The crossroads is not the fade which is where demons reside. Why would anyone think that? The eluvians are portals nothing more and the demons know this, (or at least the demon in The Masked Empire did) also the only way for a demon to enter the mortal realm is possessing a mage not going through an eluvian.

Not all Eluvians go to the Crossroads, by Morrigan's own admission

#89
dragonflight288

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Just ask Tamlen.

 

Or the darkspawn taint. 



#90
dragonflight288

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Not all Eluvians go to the Crossroads, by Morrigan's own admission

 

And also by Morrigan's own admission, each and every single eluvian requires their own key. Merrill's eluvian would never have worked anyway unless she made a key for it. 



#91
Xilizhra

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Why did Marethari try to dissuade Merrill from competing the Eluvian?

Because its dangerous

And yet never said why it was dangerous? Does that not sound suspicious?



#92
dragonflight288

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And yet never said why it was dangerous? Does that not sound suspicious?

 

And changed her reasons for opposing it across two acts. 


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#93
TEWR

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Why did Marethari try to dissuade Merrill from competing the Eluvian?

Because its dangerous

 

"It's evil because I say so even though I have no evidence because I refuse to study it" isn't the most compelling argument out there.


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#94
daveliam

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Sometimes the wise elder should try more productive methods than repeating "demons bad, demons bad, demons bad" and then immediately jumping to sacrificing themselves to one. It's a sign of an unwise elder, because she totes-magotes didn't consider what would happen to the clan, to the clan's opinion of Merrill, Hawke, humans, demons and the letter M.

 

Again, she didn't jump right to that action.  She spend years trying to convince Merrill in other ways.  I also think it's telling that the entire rest of the clan also disagrees with Merrill.  Unless that's somehow to be blamed on Marethari as well?  Let me guess, she poisoned their minds against her?  Right? 

 

Thanks solely to Hawke's intervention.

 

Funnily, I friended her and she never showed any signs of being demon bait in the future despite the onus of the whole crisis being placed on Marethari. I think Marethari badly underestimated Merrill either way.

 

Perhaps Marethari did underestimate Merrill to a degree.  But it doesn't change the fact that Merrill is blindly naive and set about a course of action that would lead to the inevitable death of someone.  Marethari chose to take that bullet for Merrill. 



#95
GreyLycanTrope

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Your argument would have merit had she jumped right to her final action.  But she didn't.  She tried to reason with Merrill.  She tried to bargain with Merrill.  She tried to enlist others to convince Merrill when she saw she wasn't being successful.  As an extreme action, she banished Merrill in order to protect her and the rest of the clan.  None of this worked.  Merrill was too prideful to turn off of her path and Marethari saw no other options after expending effort in so many other ways to convince her. 

 

Let's be honest, even if it was a prolonged period of trying to convince Merrill, going with the "let the demon possess me" option was still a bit extreme. She could have just, sealed of the cave with magic or guards or something so Merrill couldn't enter at a whim. Hell she could have just sent people to Merrill's place and stolen the Mirror.



#96
Ianamus

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Merrills quest to repair the Eluvian has seemed incredibly pointless ever since The Masked Empire, and now it is even worse.

 

Even if she does somehow find the key and get it working, which I seriouly doubt since she has no clue said key is even required, let alone what it is, how has she benefitted the elves in any way? There are already a large number of functioning Eluvians out there. Adding one to the mix does nothing.

 

At least if she rededicated herself to helping the elves in the alienage she is actually achieving something meaningful.



#97
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Sure, that was never really in doubt, other than by with people who ... had vested interest in doubting it.

 

 

Still I reject the idea they should not be researched/rebuilt.



#98
Xilizhra

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Again, she didn't jump right to that action.  She spend years trying to convince Merrill in other ways.  I also think it's telling that the entire rest of the clan also disagrees with Merrill.  Unless that's somehow to be blamed on Marethari as well?  Let me guess, she poisoned their minds against her?  Right? 

She did, but she also completely failed to give a substantial reason.

 

 

Perhaps Marethari did underestimate Merrill to a degree.  But it doesn't change the fact that Merrill is blindly naive and set about a course of action that would lead to the inevitable death of someone.  Marethari chose to take that bullet for Merrill. 

In the exact way that it'd ensure that Merrill had the highest chance of dying horribly, in the demon's own lair.

 

Also, Merrill isn't that naive.



#99
daveliam

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Let's be honest, even if it was a prolong period of trying to convince Merrill, going with the :let the demon possess me" option was still a bit extreme. She could have just, sealed of the cave with magic or guards or something so Merrill couldn't enter at a whim.

 

It's part of the long-term plan.  Sealing Merrill off from the cave just means that she'll either try to find her way into the cave or will just turn to the next demon that comes along.

 

Marethari had to teach her to not want to seek demons.  Just hiding the demon behind a barrier will either make Merrill want it more or look for a different one.  She felt she needed to change her mind on demons. 



#100
Wulfram

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I'd say the Demon was playing both of them. Either he possesses Merrill or he tricks her into building the mirror in a way that allows him out or he possesses Marethari. Any of that is good for him.

Since Marethari fell for it, his game with Merrill never really played out, so it's speculation as to whether Merrill would have escaped his web.