150 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

I bet that pride was a 5-star meal

Scrumptious.

[Steelcan]

Oh don't think I'm a fan of Marethari, she's still dalish filth after all

 

But, I don't think she's anywhere near the level of malicious as she is sometimes made out to be.  She wanted to protect Merrill from messing with powers neither of them understood, and it would seem that she was right to do so.  Merrill really had no idea what she was doing with the Eluvian.

 

Also I see no evidence of her encouraging people to bully Merrill.  She tells them the truth of the matter iirc.  Merrill left the clan, because the entire clan disapproved of her quest to fix the mirror, rightly so.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Audacity got exactly what he wanted without Merrill. He got out of the statue and possessed a powerful mage. 

 

Hypotheticals mean nothing, results say everything, and the result of everything was Audacity possessed Merethari. Using your logic, for all we know Merethari was the target the whole time, and Merrill learning blood magic and the eluvian itself was the bait. 

It means everything. Audacity was NOT going to let Merrill go. Or are you proposing that if Marethari had never intervened, then Audacity would have happily helped Merrill, and let Merrill be on her way after they were done?

 

Audacity had one goal, and one goal only: Escape. His original plan was to manipulate Merrill the Fool, however Marethari offered him an alternate escape plan. He accepted, but did not realize that Marethari had only done so, because she knew that this way, Merrill would have a chance at survival AND could stop Audacity too.

[Xilizhra]

It means everything. Audacity was NOT going to let Merrill go. Or are you proposing that if Marethari had never intervened, then Audacity would have happily helped Merrill, and let Merrill be on her way after they were done?

 

Audacity had one goal, and one goal only: Escape. His original plan was to manipulate Merrill the Fool, however Marethari offered him an alternate escape plan. He accepted, but did not realize that Marethari had only done so, because she knew that this way, Merrill would have a chance at survival AND could stop Audacity too.

I think that Marethari's intervention was the whole point.

[LOLandStuff]

I wouldn't be surprised ancient elves used eluvians for slave trade. Fastest and safest way to move your goods without damaging them.

And the Crossroad sure looks like a bazaar.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think that Marethari's intervention was the whole point.

Of course you do. Merrill can do no wrong in your eyes.

[TheJediSaint]

Of course you do. Merrill can do no wrong in your eyes.

Which is a much greater disservice to the character than even her worst detractors can muster.

[Xilizhra]

Which is a much greater disservice to the character than even her worst detractors can muster.

Lulz. She seems just fine in my playthrough.

And it's not a matter of being unable to do wrong; she admittedly screws up in that one Finders Keepers option, for instance. It's just that Marethari was worse in every way here.

[MisterJB]

Just read the OP, and one problem with the theory, and it's a big one. 

 

The crossroads is close to the Fade, and is already near several open Eluvians.

 

However, Audacity is NOT in the Fade, he's trapped in the mortal world and bound to a statue. He's nowhere near the crossroads. 

 

Ah, but now we know, for a fact, that it is very much possible to travel from the Fade through an Eluvian and into the physical world. Even if we didn-t see Audacity's whole plan, we now know for a fact Marethari knew what she was saying.
 

[Xilizhra]

Ah, but now we know, for a fact, that it is very much possible to travel from the Fade through an Eluvian and into the physical world. Even if we didn-t see Audacity's whole plan, we now know for a fact Marethari knew what she was saying.
 

Actually, we only know that it's possible to travel into the Fade from an Eluvian. Morrigan didn't mention the reverse, and even then, it'd probably require the orb. Certainly it wasn't mentioned as something demons could do.

Come to think of it, Morrigan was only speculating, and Corypheus wasn't even after the Eluvian, so it's entirely possible that even that doesn't work.

[Steelcan]

Come to think of it, Morrigan was only speculating, and Corypheus wasn't even after the Eluvian, so it's entirely possible that even that doesn't work.

He might have been seeing as there one there...  It would have been the icing on the cake

[dragonflight288]

Ah, but now we know, for a fact, that it is very much possible to travel from the Fade through an Eluvian and into the physical world. Even if we didn-t see Audacity's whole plan, we now know for a fact Marethari knew what she was saying.
 

 

Without once doing any research, changed her reasons across two acts, and living under the influence range of a demon trapped outside of the Fade for seven years. 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Actually, we only know that it's possible to travel into the Fade from an Eluvian. Morrigan didn't mention the reverse, and even then, it'd probably require the orb. Certainly it wasn't mentioned as something demons could do.
Come to think of it, Morrigan was only speculating, and Corypheus wasn't even after the Eluvian, so it's entirely possible that even that doesn't work.

Umm depending on choices, the Inq and Morrigan will enter the fade via her Eluvian despite previously seeing it go to the crossroads. So it A. Is possible to enter the fade via Eluvian and B. Possible to use the same Eluvian to go to multiple places. Further, they returned to Skyhold through the Eluvian afterwards also, as I recall.

[Iakus]

But... aside from the Eluvian not possibly working as a gateway out of a statue in the physical world, banishing Audacity would have left Merrill perfectly safe.

 

Didn't Marethari say she didn't have the strength to banish Audacity?

 

 

Or, hell, even in the hypothetical where the Eluvian thing was true, just tell Merrill before getting possessed.

Merrill would never have listened.  She was obsessed with getting the mirror working again.

[dragonflight288]

Didn't Marethari say she didn't have the strength to banish Audacity?

 

Merrill would never have listened.  She was obsessed with getting the mirror working again.

 

It would be strange for Merethari to tell Merrill that before getting possessed considering every time before then, she was saying it would bring back the darkspawn taint. 

[Hellion Rex]

Oh don't think I'm a fan of Marethari, she's still dalish filth after all

 

But, I don't think she's anywhere near the level of malicious as she is sometimes made out to be.  She wanted to protect Merrill from messing with powers neither of them understood, and it would seem that she was right to do so.  Merrill really had no idea what she was doing with the Eluvian.

 

Also I see no evidence of her encouraging people to bully Merrill.  She tells them the truth of the matter iirc.  Merrill left the clan, because the entire clan disapproved of her quest to fix the mirror, rightly so.

Correction. They hated her use of blood magic, I don't think they hated that she was trying to restore the mirror.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Correction. They hated her use of blood magic, I don't think they hated that she was trying to restore the mirror.

They also had a reasonable fear that Merrill's expirementations would bring back the Taint. But yeah, it wasn't the fact that she was working on an Eluvian, but rather the fact she was working on THAT specific Eluvian.

[Xilizhra]

Didn't Marethari say she didn't have the strength to banish Audacity?

No, she says she couldn't banish it without making it stronger. Which makes no sense when you compare it to the alternative of an abomination.

 

 

Merrill would never have listened.  She was obsessed with getting the mirror working again.

She'd have a much higher chance of listening if Marethari was speaking something other than random baseless crap.

[LobselVith8]

Wasn't the knowledge of the keys located in the Fade, which was why Merrill asked a demon about forging the thing to begin with?

According to the developers, Merrill sought out Audacity to learn blood magic in order to cleanse the shard, while building the Eluvian from lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard.

Furthermore, Audacity was bound to a totem in the real world. It makes no sense that Audacity could escape through one, and the only source for this information (to change Marethari's reason for opposing it) would be Audacity.

[Noelemahc]

But, I don't think she's anywhere near the level of malicious as she is sometimes made out to be.  She wanted to protect Merrill from messing with powers neither of them understood, and it would seem that she was right to do so.  Merrill really had no idea what she was doing with the Eluvian.

 

Also I see no evidence of her encouraging people to bully Merrill.  She tells them the truth of the matter iirc.  Merrill left the clan, because the entire clan disapproved of her quest to fix the mirror, rightly so.

I'm not saying she's malicious, I'm saying she's a classic case of stupidity enforced via authority. My example of a teacher condoning bullying of a non-neurotypical student was phrased this way for a reason.

 

Example. You're a teacher. You have a student in your class whose best friend was raped and killed and whose lifestyle you fear is putting her at risk of the same sticky end, and you see that she has signs of PTSD regarding being witness to the whole incident.

Do you:

1) Help her cope and recover her mental well-being?

2) <censored word>-shame her?

3) Do nothing while her classmates <censored word>-shame her instead?

 

A significant issue of DA2's writing is how all mages who aren't Hawke who so much as utter the words "blood" and "magic" in the same sentence are considered irredeemably evil by EVERYONE including the ostensibly SJW-oriented writers themselves. A secondary, related, issue is that this is virtually ALL MAGES IN THE STORY.

[Han Shot First]

I think that Marethari's intervention was the whole point.

 

Lets assume for a moment that Audacity always had Marethari in its sights. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'll go along with it for a moment. That then turns Merrill into the demon's catspaw. It needs to put Merrill into a situation where she appears to be in danger of possession, forcing Marethari to take drastic measures.

 

In either case, whether Merrill or Marethari is the original target, Merrill gets manipulated by a demon and is to blame for the tragedy that follows.

[LobselVith8]

And then Merrill summons Audacity to get the key, or Audacity goes to Merrill, and we're even closer to a giant demon invasion in Lowtown.

Incorrect. Audacity was summoned during the battle between the Arlathan elves and Tevinter mages at Sundermount, then it was bound to a totem in the real world for over a millennia. The short story covers this.

Or if Merrill is that stupid. Hint: she is.

Culture shock does not equate to a lack of intelligence; in fact, she's an intelligent and capable character. She uses magic proficiently, she used her intellect to build an Eluvian, and she becomes a leader to the elves who suffered because of the warring humans, protecting them during the Mage-Templar War.

So just as easily as before. It's one of the strongest Pride demons ever encountered. Anything that was summoned to take on an entire army is not to be trifled with.

Which would suggest releasing it, then allowing it to possess you, would be a colossal mistake. This is what Marethari does - she claims she wants to protect Merrill, then proceeds to try to kill her as an abomination.

[Xilizhra]

Lets assume for a moment that Audacity always had Marethari in its sights. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'll go along with it for a moment. That then turns Merrill into the demon's catspaw. It needs to put Merrill into a situation where she appears to be in danger of possession, forcing Marethari to take drastic measures.

 

In either case, whether Merrill or Marethari is the original target, Merrill gets manipulated by a demon and is to blame for the tragedy that follows.

That assumes that Marethari was actually becoming possessed altruistically, something that I rather doubt. Either way, I don't know how Merrill can be blamed for Marethari's hallucinations.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

It's been a long time since I've played DA2, but I don't remember there being any doubt that Merrill was being manipulated like a fool throughout.

[Noelemahc]

It's been a long time since I've played DA2, but I don't remember there being any doubt that Merrill was being manipulated like a fool throughout.

She was manipulated to a point. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the demon could only affect whoever was in CLOSE PROXIMITY to its real-world location. After that her obsession with Eluvians took over, the blood magic was a means to an end.

 

The contentious point is whether Marethari was right in how she handled it (and whether she was manipulated as well).