206 réponses à ce sujet

[King Dragonlord]

Because Tablets are more popular now a days. Less clutter.

 

Besides, I game from my bed. You can get a big epic TV in your bedroom, use a wireless controller, and Surround Sound Speakers/Headset.

 

In reality, the majority of the PC community is more for modders or creators, or people that like to buy the highest specs possible. Which isn't a bad thing, since I imagine consoles will one day abandon disc and direct download formats, and just stream games Playstation Now style (smart tvs and tablets will do the same), leaving PCs to be the only ones allowing disc and direct downloads. When that day comes, all that will matter is what "controls" the game is design around, and less on the specs.

 

Because at the end of the day, this is what the game is more designed around. Not a console but a "controller".

 

Thats going to require some fundamental leaps forward in network technology. Latency is a big issue. Heck, even on modern home systems latency is a bit of a thing just with modern television technology and computers. Its possible with completely different technologies they're looking into but not as an iterative leap in our current tech. So who knows when stream based gaming will actually take over.  

[BeyondTheStars]

Yes, they should have stickied "FAQ" post with answers and explanations. Transparency and sincerity goes long way. They still do that on Twitter and spread out in various posts, on many sites, but most of them collected in a single place would be invaluable.

[LaughingBanana]

"Ooops we ran out of time" is such a cop-out reasoning as to why things you promote as existing in your game don't exist anymore.

 

You folks need to be more critical about stuff like this. Because sure they cut content, but they sure don't cut the required price for us to purchase that content

 

You don't get to tout, "Look, we feature A B C D E F G in our game!" only for later to "Wooops sorry, no A B C D E F G, hehehe, sorry?" And if players/gamers keep handwaving it, they *will* keep doing it over and over again. We need to be more critical of companies charging us good amount of money for their product.

[Sylvius the Mad]

End of the day im of the opinion developers should not advertise features that aint going to be in the game, if you show something working in game, have that in game on release, if you cannot get a feature working in game simply do not advertise the damn feature, now that aint hard is it, advertise what you can 100% guarantee to have working and in-game on release, and by god atleast have the decency to advertise it "as is" not "as-is well might be depending on well"

This would require the developers have perfect foreknowledge, or that they wait until the game is 100% done before marketing it at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What counts as "writing the character for you" because I was able to roleplay anyway I wanted in New Vegas and KOTOR 2. Especially in New Vegas I had lots of freedom on how to approach pretty much any situation at least in the base game. 

In KotOR2, the Exile had a relevant backstory of which we weren't aware.  We were introduced to characters the Exile knew but we didn't.  There was no way for us to inhabit the mind of the Exile because relevant details were pre-determined, and then hidden from us.

 

In NV, does the courier have amnesia?  No.  What was he doing before the game started?  If that ever matters at all in any way within the game, the player needs to know about it in advance, but the player doesn't get to know that in advance, because Obsidian likes to reveal those details slowly.

 

The PC should never be someone we have to get to know.  The PC should be someone we can know perfectly and completely before we ever start the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

"Ooops we ran out of time" is such a cop-out reasoning as to why things you promote as existing in your game don't exist anymore.

 

You folks need to be more critical about stuff like this. Because sure they cut content, but they sure don't cut the required price for us to purchase that content

 

You don't get to tout, "Look, we feature A B C D E F G in our game!" only for later to "Wooops sorry, no A B C D E F G, hehehe, sorry?" And if players/gamers keep handwaving it, they *will* keep doing it over and over again. We need to be more critical of companies charging us good amount of money for their product.

The price of games has fallen dramatically in the past 20 years.

[King Dragonlord]

In KotOR2, the Exile had a relevant backstory of which we weren't aware.  We were introduced to characters the Exile knew but we didn't.  There was no way for us to inhabit the mind of the Exile because relevant details were pre-determined, and then hidden from us.

 

In NV, does the courier have amnesia?  No.  What was he doing before the game started?  If that ever matters at all in any way within the game, the player needs to know about it in advance, but the player doesn't get to know that in advance, because Obsidian likes to reveal those details slowly.

 

The PC should never be someone we have to get to know.  The PC should be someone we can know perfectly and completely before we ever start the game.

 

Amnesia doesn't remove the backstory, it just means that the character has to discover it with you if there is one. If you're not presented with a backstory then you get to make it up. All we know about the Courier is that he/she is a courier and was tasked to deliver that chip to Mr House. Everything else is up to us. Even in Lonesome Road where the other Courier tells you about a delivery, what little details are revealed boil down to "you delivered this other package, little did you know, stuff happened after it was delivered" and then he delivers his opinion of you which is based on how you played. 

 

Oh and you can ask that drifter with the guitar if he's your illegitimate child but only if you took a perk that lets you seduce the opposite sex. 

 

Obsidian is very dedicated to not putting words in your mouth and keeping any details they do control about your background to a bare minimum.

 

And in KOTOR 2 since you express yourself through dialog choices they wrote, they don't let you say anything without you knowing whether its true or not. And chances are, whatever most people would want to express about their character is somewhere in there among the dialog options (and when they ask you about your background, you get choices within reason to backfill your story) unless you just plain decide you hate the plot. I'd still hold KOTOR 2 above most of what Bioware has written including DAI. 

 

But then I recall you have a very unusual attitude towards how roleplaying works anyway. I don't think we'll see eye to eye. 

[House of Dexter]

I think what most of us PC Gamers hate about Console games that port over to PC's...is the GUI...and how you interact with the enviroment...

 

In DA:O the GUI was definately first designed for the PC, the game on the PC played like a PC game.

DA2...you could tell the Console was in the design.  The GUI started to feel like a Console, though the game on the PC still played like a PC.

in DA:I...you can definately tell the Console was the original design, the GUI is consolish with a mouse and keyboard...keys do very little in the game and have very little mapping ability.  You can't even map keys to forms, and the remapping of keys and mouse is pretty much non-existant.  The game play on the PC is all consolish based, with mouse as an afterthought.  It becomes very evident with the 2 cursors...and how hard it is to interact with the Rifts with the mouse.  The game plays like Console where you have to be next to your opponent(using your controller/WASD to stay next to you oppenent) to strike your enemies, unlike the other 2 versions where you character had autoattack and stuck to the enemy.  These design philosophies are different...DA:I is more action oriented and the earlier DA's (in DA:O/DA2) are more tactical/party oriented. 

 

My problem is that I was expecting something sweet like DA:O/DA2 and got a big bite of sour in DA:I.  Don't get me wrong...I love sour...but when you expect sweet...Sour just won't cut it.  I get the feeling I will never get sweet in the DA franchise again...matter of fact it looks we need to get use to sour...because sweet is going the way of the DoDo in all major releases, because of the action oriented nature of Consoles.

[AppealToReason]

This would require the developers have perfect foreknowledge, or that they wait until the game is 100% done before marketing it at all.

 

Or just not use the statement "We learned from past mistakes and are only showing final features that are 100% in the game"

[Novos]

You PC-only-enthusiasts are really strange sometimes ...

To finance it all money has to come in and the PC gamers have a tendencie to not wanting to pay now and again. So developers and publishers are actually forced to search for other markets. Ergo - the very reason we even have the games in this market is because of consoles! There is no way around this ever. If anything ... YOU HAVE TO BE THANKFUL FOR THE EXISTENCE OF CONSOLES!
Because otherwise: No future project - NOT EVER - will get approved of and/or financed. It does not get more simple than that!
I have played on PC for over ten years and still do it today. (I hope Pillars of Eternity will kick some ass!)
But my main platform are consoles now - because they just work and it is more comfortable sitting on my sofa in the living room than it is sitting at the desk. It is that simple.
Console gamers are no different from you, SkyKing, or the other way around ...
You just don't have experience with consoles to see that and realize that for yourself.
You PC-only fans can wine all you want ... When it comes to consoles - you just have absolutely NO CLUE what you are even talking about!
The companies are not practicing "consolization" ... they practice a process of dumbing down products so they can reach a bigger audience - people who do not play games of the genre in question.
It has never been about "consolization" - not ever! It is about dumbing down games, franchises and entire genre's for the off-chance to "hit-the-motherload" and reach the "casual gamer crowd" - the "candy crush" and whatnot "players".
People who play on console are just as concerned about this topic, about these problems like any other (PC) gamer.
Because console games are gimped by this process and dumbed down by it as well - AND WE HATE THAT TOO!

So, there you go! You are wrong in every imaginable way ...

And ... thank you, I guess ...

... for your ignorance and false assumptions, like ... console gamers being easy to please or easily persuaded by PR or superficial or what have you ... Thank you for pointing fingers on passionate gamers who come to this forum and fight for the same things you fight for (like ... complexity, depth, precision and polish!) - just because they are playing on a different platform ...

It is blatantly IGNORANT and simply UNTRUE! Get this through your skull my dear PC-enthusiasts!


SkyKing, I know I am being harsh here - and rude! But I won't appologize for it because I have read this kind of nonsense all over the internet for freaking forever - And it is bullshit! And when I come here, to fight for the same things you fight for - I don't want to get pissed on, for my choice of gaming platform, pretty much regardless.

Take care, SkyKing!

Have a good one ...

Interesting...

But; consoles are the hardware equivalent of the process you are describing, which contradicts with your proposition. Aren' t they specially designed hardware to focus, attract and lock said audience ? Or do you think of them as some kind of state of the art, enthusiast, niche product ?

Of course there are gamers like you who are serious about their hobby and expect quality accordingly. But make no mistake; you are in a minority as well... So in a sense; pc gamers are not necessarily that wrong using "consolization" to express a certain state of gaming in general.

Let me try to explain; why i think console gamers are easy to please and be manipulated by marketing and pr :

First of all; the majority of them consists of mainstream audience which i believe is self explanatory.

But more important than that is the choice.

What choice do you have in console gaming ?

1- If you are ever gonna buy a console and if so which one...

2- If you bought a console; which games are you going to buy...

And that's about it.

So; when you buy a console, what do you actually get ? Without games; it' s just a blu-ray player with some multimedia capabilities. Suppose that you also bought the optional controller and the camera, we are looking at around 550-600 dollar investment. In other countries like mine(which is often overlooked when making comparisons) it means around 1100-1200 dollar(equivalent of a very good pc) investment.

Therefore in order to justify your purchase; you just have to buy games. You just have to... It is self-fulfilling. Very smart. It is a psychological dilemma. Either you are going to accept and buy whatever thrown at you, or you don' t and live with the fact that there is a 600(or 1200 in some cases) dollar blue-ray player sitting in your living room.

Now; this may not be applicable to a purchase made near the end of a console cycle as it would mean an informed purchase. But until then most owners would be subject to this dilemma in full effect. Whether they are aware of it or not... To my belief; it is one of the major driving forces behind all the things we consider bad in gaming.

Console focus is a conscious decision made years ago and it is not about couch play, convenience, pnp, exclusivity or any other artificially created marketing material told to lure consumers. It is all about control and controlled enviroment and what can they do with that enviroment for their benefit and convenience. If you haven't figured it out by now, you' ll have a full understanding at the end of this cycle where you would see all the features microsoft had to backtrack in full effect on both consoles as default...

[Sifr]

In KotOR2, the Exile had a relevant backstory of which we weren't aware.  We were introduced to characters the Exile knew but we didn't.  There was no way for us to inhabit the mind of the Exile because relevant details were pre-determined, and then hidden from us.

 

In NV, does the courier have amnesia?  No.  What was he doing before the game started?  If that ever matters at all in any way within the game, the player needs to know about it in advance, but the player doesn't get to know that in advance, because Obsidian likes to reveal those details slowly.

 

The PC should never be someone we have to get to know.  The PC should be someone we can know perfectly and completely before we ever start the game.

 

Personally, I loved the fact that the Jedi Exile in KOTOR2 had a backstory which we slowly learned over the course of the game, it made for some interesting roleplaying and kept you on the edge of your seat as to who this person was?

 

While some people think this limits roleplaying, I disagree as this is simply roleplaying of a different sort and part of the fun of inhabiting that character. After all, how many roleplaying games truly give us a blank slate with no history?

 

Does knowing that Lee from The Walking Dead was a history professor who murdered his wife or Bigby Wolf from The Wolf Among Us is the reformed villain of most fairy tales, really ruin the roleplaying aspect of games from Telltale? Or to use some Bioware examples, does the Warden having pre-existing relationships with characters in their respective Origins, Hawke having a family in DA2 and Shepard's childhood and military service being clearly established in Mass Effect, really detract from the fun we have playing those characters?

 

I can understand why some people don't like it, but I enjoy that particular kind of roleplaying. It actually kind of reminds me of Quantum Leap, with us in the same position as Sam Beckett having leapt into someone new and having to rapidly adapt to the situation, with very little information about they are and what they're doing, but acting like they know what's going on?

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

And in KOTOR 2 since you express yourself through dialog choices they wrote, they don't let you say anything without you knowing whether its true or not. And chances are, whatever most people would want to express about their character is somewhere in there among the dialog options (and when they ask you about your background, you get choices within reason to backfill your story) unless you just plain decide you hate the plot. I'd still hold KOTOR 2 above most of what Bioware has written including DAI.

But then I recall you have a very unusual attitude towards how roleplaying works anyway. I don't think we'll see eye to eye.

It's not just about what the character says, but why he says it. The player needs to know these things, in advance.

The PC interprets everything he sees through a filter informed by his past experiences. The player needs to know about those past experiences all the time, not just when the writers decide they're relevant.

What Obsidian does in revealing the PC's past to the player should never happen.

The only time it is acceptable to tell the player things about his character is before character creation. Because those choices in character creation might also be informed by the character's background.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Personally, I loved the fact that the Jedi Exile in KOTOR2 had a backstory which we slowly learned over the course of the game, it made for some interesting roleplaying and kept you on the edge of your seat as to who this person was?

That might make for good storytelling, but it's lousy for roleplaying. If you're discovering who the person is, while that's happening you must then not yet know who he is.

But if that's true, how can you make decisions for him? How do you choose his class or abilities without knowing why he chose those things?

And if who the character was isn't relevant to who the character is now, why do I care?

Or to use some Bioware examples, does the Warden having pre-existing relationships with characters in their respective Origins, Hawke having a family in DA2 and Shepard's childhood and military service being clearly established in Mass Effect, really detract from the fun we have playing those characters?

Yes. I criticised the origins in DAO as soon as they were announced. In fact, during development the writers considered including a Mysterious Stranger origin that was a blank slate, but in the end cut it because they were worried people would choose it without realising that they would get less reactivity.

I can understand why some people don't like it, but I enjoy that particular kind of roleplaying. It actually kind of reminds me of Quantum Leap, with us in the same position as Sam Beckett having leapt into someone new and having to rapidly adapt to the situation, with very little information about they are and what they're doing, but acting like they know what's going on?

But the difference is, Sam wasn't actually the person he inhabited. Sam was trying to act like he was, but he wasn't. What you're doing isn't roleplaying the character, you're roleplaying Sam inhabiting your character.

You're basically playing the player. And I don't think the player should exist within the game world.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No it wouldn't. All it requires is that the developer have a concrete design document, and that they stand by that design document, being careful to add those features before any "stretch features" like, say, multiple playable races.

What if the features in the design document cannot be achieved by the release date? Or maybe they could have, if they'd foreseen all the inter-related issues between them, but they didn't, because it's a massive team and no one has perfect knowledge of everything that's going on.

[King Dragonlord]

It's not just about what the character says, but why he says it. The player needs to know these things, in advance.

The PC interprets everything he sees through a filter informed by his past experiences. The player needs to know about those past experiences all the time, not just when the writers decide they're relevant.

What Obsidian does in revealing the PC's past to the player should never happen.

The only time it is acceptable to tell the player things about his character is before character creation. Because those choices in character creation might also be informed by the character's background.

I think you take this a bit too seriously. But even if we do adhere to your standards your experience is going to be undermined if you're not already familiar with the setting because any character you create will not fit the context of the setting if you don't know the details of the setting. This is one way in which Bioware's approach had advantages because they made some unusual departures from the standard fantasy setting when they created Dragon Age and those origins help maintain consistency between the characters and the setting. Want to create a 300 year old elf from an elvish tree city? Well slow down because our elves are not long lived like that and elves don't live in tree cities. You would most likely live in a mage tower, a nomadic tribe or the slums.

[paul paymond]

Bioware said in a post that they couldent fit everything in before the game came out. They mostlikely took things out that had majer bugs and may add back in a DLC pluss they changed other things to hopefully when some of the majer bugs are fixed they will bring a DLC out with more content like weapon armour schematics quests area and more never no.

[brzoz]

In KotOR2, the Exile had a relevant backstory of which we weren't aware.  We were introduced to characters the Exile knew but we didn't.  There was no way for us to inhabit the mind of the Exile because relevant details were pre-determined, and then hidden from us.

 

In NV, does the courier have amnesia?  No.  What was he doing before the game started?  If that ever matters at all in any way within the game, the player needs to know about it in advance, but the player doesn't get to know that in advance, because Obsidian likes to reveal those details slowly.

 

The PC should never be someone we have to get to know.  The PC should be someone we can know perfectly and completely before we ever start the game.

i'm pretty sure a hole in the head is as valid as amnesia. i enjoyed it, because it left an opening in the narrative for me to fill in. during the PT i'm given only scraps of information about my pc's past - again, i can build my own imagined story around the predetermined facts. headcanon, if you will. and most amazing thing is - they leave a whole lot to fill in. it's revealed in an easy to disregard form, if you wish to do so (Lonesome Road)

 

cRPGs are predetermined, there is a finite number of permutations, you cannot do something devs didn't anticipate, therefore i don't assume a role before playing it - i don't need all the facts beforehand, PC doesn't have to be someone i know perfecly before i start playing. i build it using the tools i have at the moment with a very vague sketch of a character

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think you take this a bit too seriously. But even if we do adhere to your standards your experience is going to be undermined if you're not already familiar with the setting because any character you create will not fit the context of the setting if you don't know the details of the setting. This is one way in which Bioware's approach had advantages because they made some unusual departures from the standard fantasy setting when they created Dragon Age and those origins help maintain consistency between the characters and the setting. Want to create a 300 year old elf from an elvish tree city? Well slow down because our elves are not long lived like that and elves don't live in tree cities. You would most likely live in a mage tower, a nomadic tribe or the slums.

It's extremely valuable to learn the setting, including the world's rules (game mechanics), prior to crafting a character.

In fact, that's all I want to know about the game before I play it - the setting and the rules. Everything else is a spoiler.

[Sylvius the Mad]

i'm pretty sure a hole in the head is as valid as amnesia. i enjoyed it, because it left an opening in the narrative for me to fill in. during the PT i'm given only scraps of information about my pc's past - again, i can build my own imagined story around the predetermined facts. headcanon, if you will. and most amazing thing is - they leave a whole lot to fill in. it's revealed in an easy to disregard form, if you wish to do so (Lonesome Road)

It shouldn't be revealed at all, but since I've only played a very small amount New Vegas, I'll defer to your experience.

cRPGs are predetermined, there is a finite number of permutations, you cannot do something devs didn't anticipate, therefore i don't assume a role before playing it - i don't need all the facts beforehand, PC doesn't have to be someone i know perfecly before i start playing. i build it using the tools i have at the moment with a very vague sketch of a character

I can't make decisions for a character if I don't know the contents of his mind. I need exhaustive knowledge of his beliefs, values, goals. Before character creation.

Because I roleplay everything. I roleplay inventory management.

[Dubya75]

It shouldn't be revealed at all, but since I've only played a very small amount New Vegas, I'll defer to your experience.
I can't make decisions for a character if I don't know the contents of his mind. I need exhaustive knowledge of his beliefs, values, goals. Before character creation.

Because I roleplay everything. I roleplay inventory management.

 

Difficult and interesting concept, this.

How can there be a requirement to "know" your own RP character if the intent is for you to step into the shoes and BE that character as soon as you exit character creation? What is there to learn about this character? Nothing. Because it is essentially YOU.

Sure, the background story adds a little flavor and imagination to the mix, but to seek understanding of the character you are, is to misunderstand the entire role playing element.

You CREATE your character's personality, motivations and ambitions. You don't look for them outside of yourself.

[Sifr]

I can't make decisions for a character if I don't know the contents of his mind. I need exhaustive knowledge of his beliefs, values, goals. Before character creation.

Because I roleplay everything. I roleplay inventory management.

 

To be honestly, that exhaustive amount of micro-managing roleplaying is fine if you're going into a tabletop RPG where imagination is key for the entire experience, but not so much for videogames as we tend to be given a certain amount of information about our character with which to define who they most likely are and how we're going to play them. It's not that either is better or worse than the other, just that the two are very different mediums and so require different types of roleplay.

[King Dragonlord]

It shouldn't be revealed at all, but since I've only played a very small amount New Vegas, I'll defer to your experience.
I can't make decisions for a character if I don't know the contents of his mind. I need exhaustive knowledge of his beliefs, values, goals. Before character creation.

Because I roleplay everything. I roleplay inventory management.

I'd really like an example of a video game that fully meets your standards for roleplaying.

[King Dragonlord]

It shouldn't be revealed at all,.

The only thing lonesome road reveals that your character would have already known is that in your time as a courier you have delivered more than one package. So if you were operating on the assumption that the chip Benny stole from you was your first ever delivery, then yeah, sure the game cutoff one minor possibility with that reveal. Your character has no more idea about what was in that package than you do and the consequences of its delivery are revealed to you and your character at the same time.

Other than that and what is revealed in the opening cinematic of the core game, you are completely at liberty to decide who your character is, and just how much amnesia they have. Sometimes you are given dialog options that allow you to fill in blanks if you like the options given but these are never forced on you, are not plot relevant and if you refuse them they aren't treated as part of your character.. Nobody you meet in this game has ever met you prior to the game. Even the man who hired you to make the delivery didn't deal with you directly.

If that isnt good enough then no game with a plot is ever going to make you happy.