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[madrar]

So.  I'm at that dangerous junction of knowing just enough lore to make connections, and not nearly enough to make them correctly.

 

Here's how Thedas looks to me.  Smack me where I need it.

 

In the beginning, Thedas was a land of immense magic, woven into the very fabric of its existence.  There was no veil: fade and reality were one.

 

If there was a Maker, his first children were Spirits. The most ancient elves (that we know of) were not so very different from these spirits.  In fact they may have been, at one point, one and the same thing.  (This would explain why the elven "gods" seem to have very specialized dual natures, as they were simultaneously elves and very powerful spirits.  ie; Mythal as a spirit of Protection / Vengence when twisted.  Fen'Harel as Wisdom / Pride when twisted.  Etc.)

 

The Chant of Light certainly can't be taken at face value, but certain aspects of the chant contain (suspiciously) accurate references to the time before the veil that echo other crumbs of lore from other sources.  It's all through a mirror darkly, but Cole, tapping into the one theoretically reliable source we have at hand (Solas' mind) describes it as a time when "Everything sang the same."  This lines up rather neatly with the Chant's description of the world before man: the spirits/elves sang the Maker's praises, but their song only reflected his creation, and because will was instantly transformed to effect in an endlessly shifting pattern, nothing of true substance could be created or sustained.

 

Which brings me to Lyrium, and how it sings. We know from discovering that ancient sealed thaig that Corypheus and his crew could not possibly be responsible for the blighted version, as it predates them by quite a bit.  It follows that they were not, as the church would have it, directly responsible for the Blight either - they simply provided a path for what was already there.  And since at this point it's pretty clear that the Golden/Black City is Arlathan, trapped and sealed by Solas/Fen'Harel, we know that it was already corrupted when they arrived.  Red lyrium, of course, also sings.  

 

So, Blue stuff = original song of the Maker.   Red stuff = rebellious/corrupted song = blight.  Possibly.

 

Assuming the above is true, the timing of the creation of the veil, separating the world into reality and fade, becomes somewhat critical- as does pinning down the exact nature of Fen'Harel's power.  Judging from the effects of his orb and his mask, his powers seem to be directly related to the veil.  Conceptually, then, given the nature of the world at that time, it may have been a kind of "meta" magic: the ability to persist a version of the world that rejected being changed by the will of others, essentially creating  reality out of fade.  A song that refused to sing the same.  

 

But I'm getting way over my head there, lore-wise.  This is nutbag territory, right?   Bad enough the poor guy is already painted as Judas- no need to make him Lucifer too.  But still...   God of Rebellion indeed.

[thetawaves90]

I'm at about that same point of understanding myself. The one part that's niggling at me is the whole aspect of Lyrium being a living entity, literally something that grows and thrives...I'm not sure how that fits in with the whole lot.

[Jukaga]

That's about what I've gathered too. Let's wait for a grizzled loremaster to tell us how wrong we are.

[Kantr]

This fits. The Elvhen artifacts that strengthen the Veil. His ability to manipulate Rift magic. Don't agree with Arlathan being the Golden City. IMO the Golden City was a prison for the Blight and the Veil was erected as walls to protect the physical world from it. When Cory breached it the first time he brought the Blight back with him.

 

But you're Arlathan theory has some weight. According to Cory he heard the same 'dead whispers' that the Inquisitor hears after drinking from the Well of Sorrows. 

The black city might be a reflection of Arlathan, after all the Elves kept slaves too. Maybe the destruction of it was so powerful that it became permament in the fade.

 

The veil isn't a wall. It's more like a curtain you can look through

[Ashagar]

Hmm that's one possibility though I seem to recall in the final fight with Corypheus he rants about walking in the golden halls which counterdicts his claims that the city was already black unless there was someplace within the city that hadn't been corrupted until he and his fellow magisters walked there bringing the corruption into it.

[madrar]

This fits. The Elvhen artifacts that strengthen the Veil. His ability to manipulate Rift magic. Don't agree with Arlathan being the Golden City. IMO the Golden City was a prison for the Blight and the Veil was erected as walls to protect the physical world from it. When Cory breached it the first time he brought the Blight back with him.

 

But you're Arlathan theory has some weight. According to Cory he heard the same 'dead whispers' that the Inquisitor hears after drinking from the Well of Sorrows. 

 

There's actually a lot dropped in game that suggests Arlathan = Black City, particularly if you try to deconstruct the Dalish myths and match them up with snippets from Solas and Cole.  

 

Start with the assumption that "gods" back in the time of Arlathan were more like Tevinter Magisters on steroids: immortal, supremely powerful mages who ruled the known lands of Thedas.  Within their faction they jostled for power, and they outright warred with another faction, the Forgotten Ones.  (Forgotten, naturally, because their followers lost the subsequent civil war.)  Their power is absolute and their followers are slaves- possibly even more "enslaved" than modern Tevinter, as Abelas drops a few hints that being a servant of one of the ancient gods was equivalent to being under a geas. 

 

Solas/Fen'Harel decides that something has to change.  In the guise of working as a go-between in the conflict between the factions, he invites both parties to Arlathan for mediation.  (It's possible he serves as the "Red Jenny-esque" anonymous leader of the Forgotten Ones - some of his banter with Sera is pretty pointed.)  

 

Also possible during this time:  he 'woos' Mythal to his way of thinking.  She turns her back on her allies, joins his cause, and is murdered for it- spawning quite a few metaphorical echoes in various myths about the lover vs the jealous husband in the process.  We know Flemethyal is definitely killed before Arlathan is sealed, but any more than that is.... uncertain.

 

So.  Now that Fen'Harel / Solas has gathered the elven leaders in one place, he uses his orb and a tremendous amount of power to seal the whole thing away in the Fade.  (Possibly *creating* the veil in the first place, but again that's pure conjecture.)   Exhausted, he lapses into uthenera and misses the consequences of his action: to wit, elvish society going to hell in a handbasket, followed by Tevinter mopping up the crumbs. 

 

He wakes up later to find things have Not Gone According To Plan, and- desperate- he finds a powerful Tevinter mage to help him set things right.  Like an idiot, he gives this mage his orb.  Corypheus smiles, thanks him politely, and proceeds to unleash the first Blight on the world. 

 

Blah, blah, blah, possibly starts the Andrastean uprising and the Chantry, blah, the end.   Solas lives happily ever after.   Only not.  

[Abelas]

Although I'm still super hesitant to associate the elven gods and the old gods (seeing what Solas has told us), here's some funny curiosities: 

 

There are seven old gods, and only two of them haven’t been archdemons. You can, with a little footwork, establish parallels between these gods and the elven ones:

 

- The most straightforward would be Razikale, dragon of mystery, being connected with Dirthamen, god of secrets. 

- The other not-yet-archdemon is Lusacan,  Dragon of Night, and since Dirthamen and Falon’Din are really closely associated, I would say this one would be him. Also it makes sense, with him being guide of the dead. 

- Uthemiel would be Ghilan’nain, because of the whole beauty connection. 

- And Toth would be Sylaise, again pretty much straightforward, since they are both really closely associated with fire. 

 

The others are anyone’s guess!

 

I think there may be connections but that the truth may be more complex than this, tbh. Well, I'm no loremaster though. I really, really, really, need to reread. 

[Thompaine]

I think the Old Gods are more likely to be the Forgotten Ones, if they are connected to the Elven pantheon at all.  Sealed away in a nether realm, whispering to the magisters and trying to be released.  Also, if the Elven gods are the Archdemons, then Mythal and Fen'Harel would have to be the two remaining ones, since they are still alive.

[CronoDragoon]

He wakes up later to find things have Not Gone According To Plan, and- desperate- he finds a powerful Tevinter mage to help him set things right.  Like an idiot, he gives this mage his orb, which is the unique key to the eluvian that leads to Arlethan.  Corypheus smiles, thanks him for the orb, and proceeds to unleash the first Blight on the world. 

 

So Solas sealed the Elven Gods away to contain the Blight they carried, only to give the orb to Corypheus knowing opening the gates would unleash it again?

 

This doesn't make sense. Something is missing concerning the Blight and Solas.

[Zana]

Mmmm, I think this discussion has lots of potential. I will add another bit of lore from Cory's memory modules in temple of Dumat.  "We did not corrupt it, we have found the corruption there [in Black City] and made it ours". Also Cole when talking about dwarves (while in Crestwood caves after the rift) stated that 'no one remembers the dwarves, even the dwarves dont remember the dwarves'.  Which (coupled with Sandal's prophecy) is certainly hinting that dwarves did have magic before, and might have played a major role in the old cataclysm (They could be related to the erection of the veil, or to the creation of the first dark spawn) 

 

So my wild theory is that Veil could be dwarven creation in an attempt to make the world more 'real' (be it the jealousy of the elves or on behest of the Dread Wolf).  Another wild theory is that the The Black City could be the reflection of the lost Taig in the Fade - the source of corruption from red lyrium being reflected in the realm of dreams as darkness. 

[dragondreamer]

I don't think Arlathan is the Golden/Black City, because the Creators were sealed away before the fall of Arlathan.  Felassan also mocked the idea in Masked Empire, so I think that rules it out, considering he seemed to know a lot about the ancient elves, and I think it's pretty much a given now that Solas was his boss. 

[Gonzo]

The elven gods are spirits thing clicked real hard on my second playtrough. Solas and Morrigan have some pretty interesting dialogue on the duality of Mythal's nature, with her being a god of justice, but also, sometimes, a little ruthles, like vengeance.
I think the world before the creation of the veil, was a mix between the fade (a constantly mutating mess) and the present world (a fixed, unchanging, thing). And so, the beings capable of meaningful change, like creating new creatures and stuff, where raised to the status of gods.
I honestly dont know if the black city is arlathan. The only thing certain for me is that it contains the blight, and, possibly, in its real world counterpart(solas mentions that the fade actually reflects the physical space you're in), wich i believe to be somewhere deep underground and unaccessible is where the red lyrium corruption originates from.
One totally unrelated thing that i find kinda interesting is something Corypheus tells you in haven: "the Mark you now bear is something i once crafted to assault the very heavens" so, his first attempt to reach the fade was made with the same exact method he is using now. Wich contradicts the whole all kirkwall slaves where used for their blood juice thing, or explains why he decided to do the ritual at the conclave.

[madrar]

I'm at about that same point of understanding myself. The one part that's niggling at me is the whole aspect of Lyrium being a living entity, literally something that grows and thrives...I'm not sure how that fits in with the whole lot.

 

That's definitely a sticking point, and though I don't have the background to really poke at it, there are some tempting references to lyrium as the "blood of the earth" lying around in various places, as well as some very old (and probably very twisted) early myths about the Sun and Earth as being precursors and progenitors (potentially titan-style) to the Elvish pantheon.  So... lyrium as the literal living blood of the earth, source of all known creation? 

 

Possibly.

 

The bonus of this theory being that all lyrium-based magic is essentially blood magic.  Suck it, Chantry.

 

Still waiting for a truly grizzled loremaster to show up.  There have got to be a few of 'em lurking around.

[madrar]

I don't think Arlathan is the Golden/Black City, because the Creators were sealed away before the fall of Arlathan.  Felassan also mocked the idea in Masked Empire, so I think that rules it out, considering he seemed to know a lot about the ancient elves, and I think it's pretty much a given now that Solas was his boss. 

 

AHA.  I haven't read the book and don't know the background.  What's the argument for that timeline (did something happen between the two events?) and what exactly does Felassan say?

[Morroian]

This fits. The Elvhen artifacts that strengthen the Veil. His ability to manipulate Rift magic. Don't agree with Arlathan being the Golden City. IMO the Golden City was a prison for the Blight and the Veil was erected as walls to protect the physical world from it. When Cory breached it the first time he brought the Blight back with him.

 

But you're Arlathan theory has some weight. According to Cory he heard the same 'dead whispers' that the Inquisitor hears after drinking from the Well of Sorrows. 

 

As the OP said the blight existed in the world prior to Cory because the ancient thaig was from a time before that. I like the idea that the black city is some sort of reflection of Arlathan.

[madrar]

I honestly dont know if the black city is arlathan. The only thing certain for me is that it contains the blight, and, possibly, in its real world counterpart(solas mentions that the fade actually reflects the physical space you're in), wich i believe to be somewhere deep underground and unaccessible is where the red lyrium corruption originates from.

 

That actually cemented the whole thing for me.  From the center of a sphere, all points of the surface are equally far away.  Coincidentally, the Black/Golden city is always unreachably equidistant from you no matter where you are in the Fade.... because its physical reflection is now in the very center of the world.  

 

That would make it -literally- as far underground as it could possibly be.  Nice going, Wolfie.

 

 

One totally unrelated thing that i find kinda interesting is something Corypheus tells you in haven: "the Mark you now bear is something i once crafted to assault the very heavens" so, his first attempt to reach the fade was made with the same exact method he is using now. Wich contradicts the whole all kirkwall slaves where used for their blood juice thing, or explains why he decided to do the ritual at the conclave.

 

 

That does seem to give him additional motivation for events at the conclave, though the fact that orb requires that much blood magic to activate is a bit worrisome, given that I still don't really know the who/what/why of Mythal's murder.   On the one hand, she doesn't seem particularly interested in vengeance against Solas, but on the other... I would imagine the blood of one of the most powerful elf/spirits in existence could've really packed a punch if she were a willing sacrifice.  

 

But again, that's 99.9% conjecture out of thin air. 

[dragondreamer]

AHA.  I haven't read the book and don't know the background.  What's the argument for that timeline (did something happen between the two events?) and what exactly does Felassan say?

 

 

"We were an empire," Felassan said again, and this time she heard the anger in his voice.  "It was not the Golden City.  It was not the peaceful afterlife of this Maker the humans have made for themselves.  Take the richest district of Val Royeaux, and tell me how many fools are scheming against each other at every ball?  How many servants are flogged for improperly arranging the silverware?"

 

The context is that Felassan is trying to dissolve Briala's romantic beliefs about who the ancient elves really were.  He's an interesting character, passes himself off as Dalish, but it eventually becomes clear he isn't Dalish at all.  Similar to Solas in that he seems to know too much about the ancients.  Pretty much everything Felassan revealed in the book was confirmed in DA:I. 

[madrar]

"We were an empire," Felassan said again, and this time she heard the anger in his voice.  "It was not the Golden City.  It was not the peaceful afterlife of this Maker the humans have made for themselves.  Take the richest district of Val Royeaux, and tell me how many fools are scheming against each other at every ball?  How many servants are flogged for improperly arranging the silverware?"

 

The context is that Felassan is trying to dissolve Briala's romantic beliefs about who the ancient elves really were.  He's an interesting character, passes himself off as Dalish, but it eventually becomes clear he isn't Dalish at all.  Similar to Solas in that he seems to know too much about the ancients.  Pretty much everything Felassan revealed in the book was confirmed in DA:I. 

 

 

Ah, but I think you misunderstand him here.  He's not suggesting that Arlathan  and "the Golden City" aren't one and the same- he's arguing that calling it such glorifies the heart of a corrupt empire, and that it doesn't deserve to be remembered in such shining terms.  It seems to me like evidence that supports the theory, rather than undermining it.

 

And man, does that guy sound like Solas.  I'm definitely with you that he's a servant of Fen'Harel, if not FH undercover himself.

[Hellion Rex]

This fits. The Elvhen artifacts that strengthen the Veil. His ability to manipulate Rift magic. Don't agree with Arlathan being the Golden City. IMO the Golden City was a prison for the Blight and the Veil was erected as walls to protect the physical world from it. When Cory breached it the first time he brought the Blight back with him.

 

But you're Arlathan theory has some weight. According to Cory he heard the same 'dead whispers' that the Inquisitor hears after drinking from the Well of Sorrows. 

Well technically, the Blight was not entirely sealed away. For example, the red lyrium idols in the Primeval Thaig predate when Cory went to the Golden City. Now, that said, I think that the elves of old or Solas sealed away the most dangerous form of the Blight within the Golden City. As a result, Thedas was pretty safe from it.

 

Further, I think the red lyrium was safe as long as it remained dormant in the ancient Thaigs, cause no one even knew the stuff existed till Hawke stumbled on it.

[Morroian]

And man, does that guy sound like Solas.  I'm definitely with you that he's a servant of Fen'Harel, if not FH undercover himself.

 

He's definitely not FH any more would be spoilers for the end of the book.

[Hellion Rex]

"We were an empire," Felassan said again, and this time she heard the anger in his voice.  "It was not the Golden City.  It was not the peaceful afterlife of this Maker the humans have made for themselves.  Take the richest district of Val Royeaux, and tell me how many fools are scheming against each other at every ball?  How many servants are flogged for improperly arranging the silverware?"

 

The context is that Felassan is trying to dissolve Briala's romantic beliefs about who the ancient elves really were.  He's an interesting character, passes himself off as Dalish, but it eventually becomes clear he isn't Dalish at all.  Similar to Solas in that he seems to know too much about the ancients.  Pretty much everything Felassan revealed in the book was confirmed in DA:I. 

It certainly echoes what Solas said.

 

And based on what I heard Solas say in game, as well as the codex entry in game that seems agree, I think Solas led an rebellion against the elven gods of old. That codex entry claims that a closer translation of FH is not a god of trickery and deceit, but one of rebellion.

 

Perhaps this also explains Mythal's "betrayal" that Flemeth speaks of in such heated words.

[dragondreamer]

Ah, but I think you misunderstand him here.  He's not suggesting that Arlathan  and "the Golden City" aren't one and the same- he's arguing that calling it such glorifies the heart of a corrupt empire, and that it doesn't deserve to be remembered in such shining terms.  It seems to me like evidence that supports the theory, rather than undermining it.

 

And man, does that guy sound like Solas.  I'm definitely with you that he's a servant of Fen'Harel, if not FH undercover himself.

 

 

Perhaps, but I really dunno.  I used to subscribe to the theory, but now I feel like the Golden/Black City is something else.  A prison maybe, but not Arlathan itself, real or in the Fade.  The idea of it being linked to something underground also makes me wonder about dwarven involvement.  The blight does appear to predate both the invasion of the Golden City and the fall of Arlathan.

 

Felassan isn't Fen'Harel, but...

 

Spoiler

There were implications that he was working for Fen'Harel.  It was the first hint that Fen'Harel would possibly be involved in DA:I.  Felassan was killed in the Fade for disobeying his instructions to retrieve the eluvian passcode from Briala.  This was likely an early attempt by Solas to unlock the eluvian the other elven gods are sleeping behind.

[PantheraOnca]

 

/snip

 

We know Flemethyal is definitely killed before Arlathan is sealed, but any more than that is.... uncertain.  /snip

 

I'm not sure we DO know that. What we know is that whenever Flemeth was originally betrayed, Mythal was in spirit/whatever form waiting to hitch a ride. Mythal could have been "dead" a day or a millenium before that happened. I don't think there's enough info to say for sure.

And to others: how ABSOLUTELY certain are we that the lost thaig is older than the fall or Arlathan? I'm forgetting if there was a specific reference that "proves" this. What references do we have that make the following timeline non-possible:

Elvish gods go bye-bye, Magisters magistrate the @$^^ out of the golden city(Arlathan falls) with the thaig being sealed and the 1st blight happening in short order/nearly simultaneously/close enough as to not make a difference.

 

Am I most likely forgetting something obvious or is the above plausible?

[Hellion Rex]

 

Spoiler

There were implications that he was working for Fen'Harel.  It was the first hint that Fen'Harel would possibly be involved in DA:I.  Felassan was killed in the Fade for disobeying his instructions to retrieve the eluvian passcode from Briala.  This was likely an early attempt by Solas to unlock the eluvian the other elven gods are sleeping behind.

I think that this might have been the eluvian in the Crossroads that Mythal was standing in front of during the epilogue. I think she might have had a hand in their creation and that she could use them at her will.

 

Also, did it look like she was sending something through it before she turns to talk to FH?