305 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

If it's all about elf specific stuff (elfy stuff), then yeah. She isn't against elves in general though. Like say in the Hinterlands, helping that elven woman retrieve her husband's ring (A Dalish promise ring at that). She approves just as much as Solas (or Cass). She likes helping normal people in need, elf or not.

 

That she does. I get that she has a self-identity issue thanks to her ears, but let's face it. She is an elf, much like Solas, Iona, Shianni and others are. Most humans see elves as less than them, barely fit to be servants. Whether she likes it or not, being elven is part of her identity because others, like myself in this instance  , look at her and see an elf. I see an elf who is desperate to prove that she's just like everyone else, and in many ways she is, but still an elf. She's not large and has horns like the Kossith/Qunari, she's not human, and she's not dwarven. People who look at her will see a city-elf who lives outside an alienage, or they see Red Jenny, petty criminal prankster extraordinaire. 

 

Real life is like that as well. Mythbusters did an amusing segment on battle of the sexes where they took a picture of several men of varying ages, and to one group of women showed the pictures with one set of names and occupations these men held, and then changed the name and occupation and showed that to another group of women, and compared how that affected what women thought of those men based on nothing but a picture that didn't change and a career they were told that man had. 

 

Economic status, career choice, parentage, background, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, does affect how we perceive others. 

[Insaner Robot]

 

 

They're displaying quite a great deal of reverence and nor treating her like a barbarian at all.

 

And then there's this:

 

The Dalish are known to refer to their city cousins as "flat ears," some of them believing the city elves are no more than "pets" for humans in need of cultural education, and hence are human in spirit if not body. giving them a reputation of being haughty and condescending. In return, their urban kin view them as an enigmatic myth: in the same light humans do, as bandits or heathens, or else as noble wood elves or even living legends.

 

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/City_elves

 

The City elf opinion of the Dalish can run from bandit all the wap up to legends.

[alwaysquestions]

I think Sera is a really great character that in many ways goes beyond standard fantasy writing, and this is a great example of it.

 

Her behavior, imo, is written to highlight a very real conflict in our world. On one hand some people would describe Sera as a "self-hating elf", who bought into the majority human way of doing things and is hiding it under the excuse that she is just being normal and not-defined by her race.

 

On the other hand some people would say that Sera refuses to be defined by the traditions and culture she was born into, and that she demands to be judged on her own merit as a person. That she hates the us-vs-them attitude and thinly veiled xenophobia of people who insist on racial traditions.

 

On top of that she's stubborn, religious, annoying, definitely does not pander to the player in any way. She's an unlikeable character, but I sort of lover her for it.

[Colonelkillabee]

Interesting post.

 

Confession.. I haven't been this way for years, but now that you mention it, I had similar racial identity issues growing up. I'm half-Asian/white, but grew up in Texas.. and got mostly seen as Asian.. just felt out of place. Wanted to just be like anyone else. I even tried to say I was something else sometimes. So stupid.

 

This just makes me like Sera more though.

I still feel this way to be honest. I've never felt white enough to be white or black enough to be black, ever. So I resent when people call me black or when people call me white, often against my will, lol. Just can't help it, both my family and otherwise have treated me like ****, so I don't feel kinship to anyone. I'm just me.

[CrimsonN7]

That she does. I get that she has a self-identity issue thanks to her ears, but let's face it. She is an elf, much like Solas, Iona, Shianni and others are. Most humans see elves as less than them, barely fit to be servants. Whether she likes it or not, being elven is part of her identity because others, like myself in this instance  , look at her and see an elf. I see an elf who is desperate to prove that she's just like everyone else, and in many ways she is, but still an elf. She's not large and has horns like the Kossith/Qunari, she's not human, and she's not dwarven. People who look at her will see a city-elf who lives outside an alienage, or they see Red Jenny, petty criminal prankster extraordinaire. 

 

 

Alot of her issues fall back to her childhood and how she was treated and viewed as inferior because of her race. She hates this and hates when she is told what she ought to act like just because of her race. Take what Solas said to her for example you're the furthest from what you were meant to be and she responds yeah well it's not like I haven't heard that before. Being an elf shouldn't define her as a person, it is a part of her identity can't deny that but she is more than some pointy ears, she likes to see people as people, she hates this separatism and superiority complex within her own race, that's why she disapproves alot I reckon when you pick elfy choices more so if you're a Dalish elf as they are considered by many as the most proud of the elves.

 

She still likes to help the common elves and is horrified when she sees the butchery of the elven servants at the Winter Palace so she doesn't hate her own race ought right, she hates seeing common people being used and mistreated.

[Colonelkillabee]

I remember you mentioned being a bit younger than me. All I can say is it gets better.  

Lol someone should have cued the violin during my post I'm fine with it. It only gets me down if I let it. Most people in this world are assholes and not worth knowing anyway, so the fact that I don't feel kinship with them half the time's a blessing.

[Colonelkillabee]

No, I didn't think you were going emo or anything... I just know how it can bother at times. I think the worst parts of it are when we're very young. 

 

I'm just saying though.. as you approach old fart status (not that I'm quite there yet), very little matters.

Lol I look forward to it I'm only 22, so I've got a lot of waiting around to do, lol.

[dragonflight288]

Alot of her issues fall back to her childhood and how she was treated and viewed as inferior because of her race. She hates this and hates when she is told what she ought to act like just because of her race. Take what Solas said to her for example you're the furthest from what you were meant to be and she responds yeah well it's not like I haven't heard that before. Being an elf shouldn't define her as a person, it is a part of her identity can't deny that but she is more than some pointy ears, she likes to see people as people, she hates this separatism and superiority complex within her own race, that's why she disapproves alot I reckon when you pick elfy choices more so if you're a Dalish elf as they are considered by many as the most proud of the elves.

 

She still likes to help the common elves and is horrified when she sees the butchery of the elven servants at the Winter Palace so she doesn't hate her own race ought right, she hates seeing common people being used and mistreated.

 

I'm not saying she should act a certain way because she's an elf but I think she shouldn't get her knickers in a twist when an inquisitor wants to improve the lot of elves overall, or an elven inquisitor wants to represent elves and improve how they're viewed overall. 

 

If the Inquisitor succeeds, it means she'll get more respect upon meeting someone than she normally would've gotten. And it would help other children from having the same childhood she did. 

 

I'm all for her helping the average person out however she can. 

[jlb524]

If the Inquisitor succeeds, it means she'll get more respect upon meeting someone than she normally would've gotten. And it would help other children from having the same childhood she did.

If the Inquisitor succeeds, will Sera get more respect from your average Dalish elf?

[stop_him]

Interesting post.

 

Confession.. I haven't been this way for years, but now that you mention it, I had similar racial identity issues growing up. I'm half-Asian/white, but grew up in Texas.. and got mostly seen as Asian.. just felt out of place. Wanted to just be like anyone else. I even tried to say I was something else sometimes. So stupid.

 

This just makes me like Sera more though.

I doubt that. 

 

Sera is a racist, and self-depricating. She hates elves on the basis of them being elves. She hates mages on the basis of them being mages. These are immutable qualities. Therefore her distrust and dislike of elves and mages is *nearly* akin to her being an Uncle Tom. Just think in real life if Sera was just an Asian and gave people sh*t for wanting to learn things about their Asian heritage. Put in that light, she is undeniably racist, and a bigot. 

 

When she says that she distrusts mages, but says that YOU are OK. That's pretty much like saying, "Oh well, I don't like gay people, but I guess you're ok for a gay person."

[Dean_the_Young]

That she does. I get that she has a self-identity issue thanks to her ears, but let's face it. She is an elf, much like Solas, Iona, Shianni and others are. Most humans see elves as less than them, barely fit to be servants. Whether she likes it or not, being elven is part of her identity because others, like myself in this instance  , look at her and see an elf. I see an elf who is desperate to prove that she's just like everyone else, and in many ways she is, but still an elf. She's not large and has horns like the Kossith/Qunari, she's not human, and she's not dwarven. People who look at her will see a city-elf who lives outside an alienage, or they see Red Jenny, petty criminal prankster extraordinaire. 

 

So what if you ascribe viewpoints and beliefs to her on the basis of her race? So what if most people in Thedas are like that?

 

Letting other people define your views and beliefs is a choice, and arguably a submission. Why should someone be obliged to submit to racism, on the grounds that other people are racist?
 

 

 

Real life is like that as well. Mythbusters did an amusing segment on battle of the sexes where they took a picture of several men of varying ages, and to one group of women showed the pictures with one set of names and occupations these men held, and then changed the name and occupation and showed that to another group of women, and compared how that affected what women thought of those men based on nothing but a picture that didn't change and a career they were told that man had. 

 

Economic status, career choice, parentage, background, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, does affect how we perceive others. 

 

 

True, to an extent... but a career is a choice. It says things about you- just as socio-economic status implies how you might live your life.

 

Your race, though? Race is neither a choice, nor an obligation on how to be.

[AresKeith]

I doubt that.

Sera is a racist, and self-depricating. She hates elves on the basis of them being elves. She hates mages on the basis of them being mages. These are immutable qualities. Therefore her distrust and dislike of elves and mages is *nearly* akin to her being an Uncle Tom. Just think in real life if Sera was just an Asian and gave people sh*t for wanting to learn things about their Asian heritage. Put in that light, she is undeniably racist, and a bigot.

When she says that she distrusts mages, but says that YOU are OK, that's pretty much like saying, "Oh well, I don't like gay people, but I guess you're ok for a gay person."

Can you stop with those BS comparisons

[Dean_the_Young]

I doubt that. 

 

Sera is a racist, and self-depricating. She hates elves on the basis of them being elves. She hates mages on the basis of them being mages. These are immutable qualities.

 

 

Being 'elfy' isn't an immutable quality. It's a culture, and culture is both assumed and chosen.

 

This is the problem that Thedas runs into quite frequently, by equating race and culture. It's funny how squarely Sten lampoons it in his 'elves are those that excel at poverty' party banter.

 

 

Therefore her distrust and dislike of elves and mages is *nearly* akin to her being an Uncle Tom. Just think in real life if Sera was just an Asian and gave people sh*t for wanting to learn things about their Asian heritage. Put in that light, she is undeniably racist, and a bigot. 

 

When she says that she distrusts mages, but says that YOU are OK, that's pretty much like saying, "Oh well, I don't like gay people, but I guess you're ok for a gay person."

 

You're closer to the point on the mage grounds, but the 'mage is race' analogy breaks down because the differences are, well, real. And justifiably scary.

 

Uncle Tom ideology, or American Racism, had an ideological basis on the supposedly innate differences between whites and blacks- mental, physical, even spiritual disreprencies that ultimately have proven to be imaginary. Blacks could learn just as well, fight just as well, and were morally/ethically no different than whites of similar situation. The differences were superficial.

 

Magic... is hardly a superficial difference. It has incomparable advantages and characteristics. It is a mental experience and perspective mundanes never go through. And the spiritual dimension is, well, exceedingly relevant and often scary to people in Thedas.

 

Sera's discrimination towards mages is far closer to anti-mutant racism in the X-Men franchise- mutants (mages) are real, mysterious, and frequently dangerous even when not outright malevolent. It's fear of the weak towards the stronger- which is about as far you can get discrimination-wise from historic American racism of the Uncle Tom sort.

[alwaysquestions]

Being 'elfy' isn't an immutable quality. It's a culture, and culture is both assumed and chosen.

 

This is the problem that Thedas runs into quite frequently, by equating race and culture. It's funny how squarely Sten lampoons it in his 'elves are those that excel at poverty' party banter.

 

I think there are real world analogues.

 

For example there is a black culture in the US, a set of interests, styles, behaviors and so on that a lot of black people adopt. Sera is the black person who is against black culture and black people who embrace it. I know people like that irl.

 

Are they racist? Perhaps. They, like Sera, think black people are being held down by it. I don't think she hates the elven race, but on the other hand maybe hating the culture of your people is just an insidious secondary form of good old mainstream racism.

[WildOrchid]

I doubt that. 

 

Sera is a racist, and self-depricating. She hates elves on the basis of them being elves. She hates mages on the basis of them being mages. These are immutable qualities. Therefore her distrust and dislike of elves and mages is *nearly* akin to her being an Uncle Tom. Just think in real life if Sera was just an Asian and gave people sh*t for wanting to learn things about their Asian heritage. Put in that light, she is undeniably racist, and a bigot. 

 

When she says that she distrusts mages, but says that YOU are OK, that's pretty much like saying, "Oh well, I don't like gay people, but I guess you're ok for a gay person."

 

I dunno about magic, she's wary of it. But she doesn't hate my mage, nor hates Dorian or Solas or Viv for their magic.

[CrimsonN7]

I dunno about magic, she's wary of it. But she doesn't hate my mage, nor hates Dorian or Solas or Viv for their magic.

 

Sera is willing to get involved with a Dalish mage, two of her biggest hang-ups combined also so if she was truly racist or had a real hatred for mages she would avoid a person like that you'd think.

[stop_him]

Can you stop with those BS comparisons

Sten: No. 

 

And they're not BS.

[stop_him]

Being 'elfy' isn't an immutable quality. It's a culture, and culture is both assumed and chosen.

 

This is the problem that Thedas runs into quite frequently, by equating race and culture. It's funny how squarely Sten lampoons it in his 'elves are those that excel at poverty' party banter.

 

You're closer to the point on the mage grounds, but the 'mage is race' analogy breaks down because the differences are, well, real. And justifiably scary.

 

Uncle Tom ideology, or American Racism, had an ideological basis on the supposedly innate differences between whites and blacks- mental, physical, even spiritual disreprencies that ultimately have proven to be imaginary. Blacks could learn just as well, fight just as well, and were morally/ethically no different than whites of similar situation. The differences were superficial.

 

Magic... is hardly a superficial difference. It has incomparable advantages and characteristics. It is a mental experience and perspective mundanes never go through. And the spiritual dimension is, well, exceedingly relevant and often scary to people in Thedas.

 

Sera's discrimination towards mages is far closer to anti-mutant racism in the X-Men franchise- mutants (mages) are real, mysterious, and frequently dangerous even when not outright malevolent. It's fear of the weak towards the stronger- which is about as far you can get discrimination-wise from historic American racism of the Uncle Tom sort.

Being "elfy" is immutable. Elves cannot change the fact that they are elves. Mages cannot change that they are mages anymore than I can change my race or sex.