305 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

It's good to get at least one elf that acknowledges that the Dalish are jerks.

[KaiserShep]

Sera is just a casual Andrastian. She does give disapproval though if you say the Inquisition is for faith. I never got the reason why. I think she just thought my character was "kooky". edit: Or maybe it was "loony"

I think her hang-up over that is that she feels that having any kind of cause beyond simply helping people is bad. The Chantry, Templars and Seekers all operated for the Maker, and they didn't do all that well in the end.

[alwaysquestions]

Dissenting from identity politics (ie, the 'black culture') doesn't make one racist. Rather, the accusation that it does implies a No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

Refusing to live under such a fallacious cultural appeal is hardly insidious- or derived from racism.

 

Can you say, with certainty, that you refuse to live under the cultural appeal of "your" culture because you genuinely don't like it or because the appeal of confirming to the majority culture (which heavily rewards you for it) is too strong. For example internalized homophobia.

 

Sometimes I think Sera is an internalized elfophobe sometimes I don't.

[KaiserShep]

Ah.. well, I am a loony, in fact. Going to try and try again (definition of insanity, I suppose).

On another note, I like how Vivienne is the only one that doesnt seem to approve of the "because it's right" option.

[Dean_the_Young]

Can you say, with certainty, that you refuse to live under the cultural appeal of "your" culture because you genuinely don't like it or because the appeal of confirming to the majority culture (which heavily rewards you for it) is too strong. For example internalized homophobia.

 

Sometimes I think Sera is an internalized elfophobe sometimes I don't.

 

Sure. Of course, I dispute that there is a 'my' culture tied to me by genetic accident.

 

An intellectual weakness of the 'internalized racism' argument is that it's a complete non-verifiable. No matter what is said, it's an argument that basically amounts to that anything they say is a lie, unless they agree with your insinuation of what their 'real' motivation is.

 

It's basically conspiracy theory applied to personal motivations, and about as supportable.

[WildOrchid]

It's good to get at least one elf that acknowledges that the Dalish are jerks.

 

I think Fenris is like that too, right?

[Hellion Rex]

I think Fenris is like that too, right?

As far as I am aware, no. He just didn't like Merrill.

[KaiserShep]

I think Fenris is like that too, right?

I don't recall him having an opinion one way or the other. He's all about mages, in which case his beliefs are a bit more severe than Sera's.

[alwaysquestions]

Sure. Of course, I dispute that there is a 'my' culture tied to me by genetic accident.

 

An intellectual weakness of the 'internalized racism' argument is that it's a complete non-verifiable. No matter what is said, it's an argument that basically amounts to that anything they say is a lie, unless they agree with your insinuation of what their 'real' motivation is.

 

It's basically conspiracy theory applied to personal motivations, and about as supportable.

 

Internalized racism doesn't claim you don't feel what you feel. It talks about the conditions that made you feel the way you feel.

 

Yeah it puts a non-verifiable question into play: were you born to not be compatible with your birth culture or was there massive external influence to make you that way.

[WildOrchid]

As far as I am aware, no. He just didn't like Merrill.

 

 

I don't recall him having an opinion one way or the other. He's all about mages, in which case his beliefs are a bit more severe than Sera's.

 

Ah yes, I totally forgot he has more issues with magic in general and the fact Merrill uses blood magic. My bad.

[wickedgoodreed]

Actually, Fenris does have a few banters with Merrill that suggest he'd agree with Sera's point of view about the Dalish.
 

Spoiler

• Merrill: You've probably never met a Dalish before, have you?
• Fenris: I wouldn't know.
• Merrill: I'm sure you'd be able to tell. Dalish aren't much like the elves in the cities.
• Fenris: The smug sense of superiority does give you away.

───────

• Merrill: Certainly your people have stories about the Dalish. No?
• Fenris: My people?
• Merrill: The elves in Tevinter. They must have heard of us.
• Fenris: They've heard. They just don't care.
• Merrill: But if they ran away, the Dalish would help them.
• Fenris: You might as well say, "If they flew into the sky, they could live in the clouds."
• Merrill: What would they eat in the clouds? There's nothing there but fluff and the occasional bird.
• Fenris: This is why nobody takes the Dalish seriously.

──────────────

• Fenris: I don't want your pity.
• Merrill: Are you talking to me?
• Fenris: You said you were sorry about the ritual I endured. Keep your sorrow.
• Merrill: I only meant—
• Fenris: You have all the freedom none of our kind enjoy, and you throw it away. On what?
• Merrill: Our people need to reclaim their heritage.
• Fenris: A heritage of defeat? To what end?
• Merrill: Would you truly turn your back on your own history? There's so much we don't know...
• Fenris: It's not my history. It's simply history.

───────

• Fenris: Tampering around in mud all day, how do the dalish do it?
• Merrill: Do you like the crowded cities better?
• Fenris: It's a smell I'm more familiar with, yes.

───────
Act 2

• Merrill: You never come to the alienage, Fenris.
• Fenris: I don't live in the alienage.
• Merrill: Don't you care about the plight of our people? Not even a little bit?
• Fenris: I don't need to visit the alienage to know what they suffer. I know it better than you.
• Merrill: I've lived there for years! I see it firsthand!
• Fenris: And I lived it.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Internalized racism doesn't claim you don't feel what you feel. It talks about the conditions that made you feel the way you feel.

 

It does, however, cast as inherently suspect any justification or rational you make.

 

 

Yeah it puts a non-verifiable question into play: were you born to not be compatible with your birth culture or was there massive external influence to make you that way.

 

 

Nature and nurture both have parts to play in cultural compatibility, but no one is 'born' with a culture.

[Aimi]

were you born to not be compatible with your birth culture

the 1930s called, they want their primordialist anthropology back

[alwaysquestions]

It does, however, cast as inherently suspect any justification or rational you make.

 

Nature and nurture both have parts to play in cultural compatibility, but no one is 'born' with a culture.

 

 

Ofc it makes justifications suspect, that is its purpose. I think it is supposed to help you reexamine your feelings in context so you can decide whether they represent the "true" you (whatever that is) or not.

 

I do agree with you though that people will use it aggressively to invalidate other peoples thoughts and that's annoying.

 

Anyway we are far off topic.

[alwaysquestions]

the 1930s called, they want their primordialist anthropology back

 

well thought out and well written, we have a winner here

[Wulfram]

Maybe not a racist, just a bigot.

[Aimi]

well thought out and well written, we have a winner here

the underlying point is that this discussion is being held under terms and understandings and definitions that are inherently preposterous

insofar as it even is a discussion, because it is incredibly difficult to understand what any one of you is getting at

I get the vague sense that people are trying to portray Sera as a sort of Jason Whitlock "cornball brother" which is a pretty outrageously poor analogy, but it's unclear what your own stance on that whole thing is

[alwaysquestions]

the underlying point is that this discussion is being held under terms and understandings and definitions that are inherently preposterous

insofar as it even is a discussion, because it is incredibly difficult to understand what any one of you is getting at

I get the vague sense that people are trying to portray Sera as a sort of Jason Whitlock "cornball brother" which is a pretty outrageously poor analogy, but it's unclear what your own stance on that whole thing is

 

 

So summarizing your argument:

 

"what you're talking about is ridiculous" (for whatever reasons you didn't explain)

 

"I don't understand what you're saying"

 

"Let me reference some things people probably don't know about, while reasserting my poor understanding of what you're talking about"

 

If you were ever close to an academic environment, as you clearly want to project, you are far from showing it.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, Fenris does have a few banters with Merrill that suggest he'd agree with Sera's point of view about the Dalish.
 

Spoiler

 

Man I forgot all about this.

[In Exile]

Normal people must be losing their minds.
Blight, war, and than hole in the sky.

And Sera says that all the time. A lot of her dialogue is just about how insane all of this stuff is for everyone.

[WildOrchid]

Actually, Fenris does have a few banters with Merrill that suggest he'd agree with Sera's point of view about the Dalish.
 

 

Yeah, it seems he'll get along well with Sera.

[Aimi]

So summarizing your argument:
 
"what you're talking about is ridiculous" (for whatever reasons you didn't explain)
 
"I don't understand what you're saying"
 
"Let me reference some things people probably don't know about, while reasserting my poor understanding of what you're talking about"
 
If you were ever close to an academic environment, as you clearly want to project, you are far from showing it.

Oooh, somebody read my "about me" page! I feel like that never happens!

Spoiler

Yes, surprisingly, people change the way they act based on context, and one of those contextual triggers is environment, and another one is "this discussion is silly so I guess I'll play down to it because that's more fun". Academics write monographs in a different style than their lectures (well, if they're any good); they lecture in a different style than they use in office hours; they hold office hours in a different style than they speak when at cocktail parties. This thread is none of those things. It is a poorly framed initial question followed by several pages of in-and-out meandering garbage with a fair amount of pseudopsych and one or two cogent observations.

This also isn't my area of academic expertise, and I'm not bringing much to the table apart from a very rudimentary understanding of identity in history. We're talking "just important stuff that you could find your way to through Eriksen, Okamura, or Barth", because that's what I've needed to use in other contexts. So if you're expecting the following to pass academic muster, don't.

Anyway. The fact that I mentioned those authors in particular should give you an idea about where I'm coming from: primordialism is wrong, stupid, and actively harmful to people when it is followed or believed, while instrumentalist and modified instrumentalist understandings of ethnicity and identity describe the world in which we actually live. What this means for the whole "Sera/elf/Dalish" thing is...well, it's complicated to explain, but like Sera herself, it is not complicated in practice.

And, even though some people in this thread probably know a lot of what I'm about to say already, I'm going to go through it step by step, because not everybody does know, and because the real purpose of discussions on the Internet is not to convince the other participants, but to convince the lurkers.

Identity in the real world is full of a humongous mixture of traits and hallmarks: off the top of my head, crucial ones include sex and gender, ethnicity and nationality, geographic proximity, religious identification or lack thereof, profession and employment, fan clubs or sports allegiances, social class, genetic or biological markers, sometimes just random shared customs, and often it will be a mixture of the above. Some are innate, others are not. Some are defined by oneself, others are defined by others. The single thing that connects them all is belief, especially shared belief: this group is a group because people think that it is a group.

At its most basic level, being an elf in Thedas appears to be a matter of biology. If you've got the pointy ears (and no horns), people will probably consider you to be an elf. Biology seems like it makes questions of identity pretty easy to answer; see also the example already brought up in this thread, of black identity. If somebody has dark skin, they're black, and if somebody has light skin, they're white. Right?

Well, kind of. Maybe. Black identity isn't exactly a monolithic Thing. A rich American black male English-speaking basketball player from Akron does not share much with a poor Angolan black female Kikongo-speaking farmer from Uije. Even within America, blackness is deeply geographical, gendered, and class-divided. It would be foolish to say that they have no similarities; they both would have to deal with both casual and violent racism from non-blacks for their shared skin color. But apart from that very important aspect of their lives, how similar would LeBron and Luyinda even be? And how presumptuous would it be of either of them to suggest that his or her experience was the 'real' black way of life?

This very imperfect analogy can be extended to elves. As the very first Dragon Age game hammered into our brains, there is more than one kind of elf in southern Thedas. There are the Dalish, and then there's everybody else. Both of these identities are partially biological; non-elves don't qualify, and even "elf-blooded" humans can face stigmatization in both alienage and clan. But neither of them is wholly biological. Dalish culture is not "elven culture", it is an umbrella term for a subset of elven cultures that all basically adhere to certain ideas. And it is a performative culture, too: you're Dalish if you live in or with a clan and do the clan's stuff, and conversely you are not Dalish if you don't live in or with a clan and don't do the clan's stuff. The corollary to that observation is that Dalish culture is a learned, not innate, behavior, just like basically all culture ever. Talking about a "birth culture" is...kind of a contradiction in terms.

And even if we could talk about a "birth culture" about anybody, we wouldn't be able to talk about it with Sera, because we don't know the circumstances of her birth. We don't know if she came from a clan and was abandoned, we don't know if she came from an alienage and escaped, we don't even technically know if she's mortal. We don't have a complete understanding of the circumstances of her rearing, apart from the Emmald story, but Emmald notably wasn't an elf. We don't know if Sera was ever raised in any sort of elven culture, or if she was always an outsider to it. So this faffing about talking of internalization and rejecting birth cultures in favor of majorities and whatnot is pure out-the-rear speculation.

So: biologically, Sera is an elf. Most of us would agree about that. There are at least two umbrellas for elven identity as elves distinct from humans in southern Thedas, and she doesn't participate under either of them, instead choosing to emphasize other layers of her identity, depending on circumstance: her sex, gender, social class, religion, entertainment interests, "association" membership, and optionally her relationship status. This is normal stuff; it's what anybody does every day.

Even if she did change and emphasize other layers of identity than she otherwise might have, there's nothing necessarily traumatic or bad about that. Deciding to act less elfy might have been the result of trauma, even something as well-intentioned as the Emmald thing she describes. Or it could've been because she thought about it for awhile and decided that being elfy was full of bollocks. Not everybody views it like the Dalish do. They prize their elfiness above all else. Some people think that's awesome and some people think that's stupid. Sera even pokes fun at the notion that there was some severe trauma behind her past with that locket joke. In fact, the presumption that there had to have been something super bad to make her decide that being elfy sucks is a very poor one. That Barth work I mentioned earlier was a case study of the Swat valley in Pakistan, where he observed changes in ethnic identity from Pathan to Kohistani or Baluchi based in significant part on something no more traumatic than job performance; they didn't have the strong antipathy toward elfiness that Sera apparently has.

In uncomplicated, Sera-approved terms, she does what she wants, she cares about the stuff she wants to care about, and the rest is stupid.

Yeah, Sera does give "elfy" elves a lot of crap, not just Dalish but alienage ones too. Some of it's undeserved. She claims that it's more because they do stupid stuff than because of the fact that they're elfy elves, but as we've already seen, identity is performative, and what makes them elfy elves is the exact sort of stuff that Sera thinks is stupid about them. Whether you think that that's racism depends on what you think racism is, and that might be one of the least interesting questions on the Internet; changing the argument to whether she's "bigoted" instead of "racist" is a distinction without difference. But I would point out that a huge amount of the interactions between Sera herself and almost every new acquaintance in the game start out as being about elfiness or elves. If you weren't terribly interested in being associated with elves - for whatever reason - then wouldn't those constant "so how about being an elf isn't it interesting?" questions and comments get exasperating?

As for the Jason Whitlock reference...Whitlock is a black American sports media personality who has become known for being critical of what he refers to as "hip-hop culture". This criticism often takes the form of public, paranoiac beefs with other black sports media personalities, whom he has referred to as "bojangling for dollars" by acting in what he believes are stereotypically 'black' ways. His detractors refer to him as an Uncle Tom who openly denounces black culture and young black men in the service of his white bosses; the "cornball brother" comment wasn't about him, but it describes the kind of person he is to a lot of people. (Here is a decent look at the subject.) I wouldn't compare him to Sera, though. Whitlock's criticism comes from a position of privilege: he has made it in the world, and he paternalistically informs black men that they could be successful like him too if only they did X, Y, and Z instead of A, B, and C. That...isn't very much like Sera at all: her whole complaint about the elfiest of the elfy-elves, the Dalish, is that they act like they're better than everybody else. Can you imagine a paternalistic Sera?

I don't really have a position on the central question of the thread, "is Sera racist". I think that the discussion, as it has been conducted thus far, isn't very interesting, and I think that attempts to improve it with would-be "academic" discourse are what Americans would call "putting lipstick on a pig". I think that most anger directed at Sera's character comes less from a rational analysis of her character than knee-jerk hate: "I don't like her manner of speech", "I think she sounds stupid", "I hate that's she doesn't want the D", "I hate that my would-be elven waifu isn't elfy", "I hate that she refuses to change her character to suit me". I also think that a fair number of the recent posts in this thread were written with both a lack of clarity and a lack of content, and that was what I wanted to highlight with my deliberately slapdash comment.

Good enough?

[LobselVith8]

Again, when Sera says "elfy" she is NOT referencing race, but DALISH culture.  Any half-hearted attempt to talk to here reveals that.

 

Sera never explicitly distinguishes having an issue with only Dalish culture, as opposed to elves in general; in fact, there's no evidence she's even met a Dalish elf before her encounter with Lavellan (and we already know she's willing to jump to conclusions based on hearsay alone). She immediately shows disgust towards Lavellan when she sees that the protagonist is an elf, and then says she hopes that he isn't 'elfy'. She also has issues with Solas and Briala, the latter whom she opposes - despite Briala fighting for the empowerment of the Orlesian elves - while she'll support Gaspard ascending to the throne right after his racist remarks towards Briala.

 

And she doesn't HATE mages per se.  She is very wary of them and generally scared of anything that smacks of magic, the fade or supernatural occurances.  Mages HAVE caused a whole lot of heartache for the little people she is suppose to care about.  That being said, she does not dismiss individual mages out of hand at any point. 

 

Even among the companions, she gets along very well with Dorian, does not get along so well with Viv and I think it is safe to say that she loathes Solas.  In viv's case it has almost nothing to do with being a mage and more with being stuck up(in Sera's opinion) and with Solas it is the "elfy" taken to infinity attitude of his, not his being a mage.

 

Solas isn't even Dalish, so I don't see how you're arguing that her problem is only with Dalish culture when he's explicitly not Dalish.

 

The Dalish have a "holier than thou" attitude and their religion is very much a part of it.  So yes she IS going to reject that.

 

You're taking the views of some people and conflating them to an entire ethnic group of people. We have clans that have taken in humans. We have clans that have saved the lives of individual Andrastians elves they came across, and Clan Lavellan takes that a step further by saving the lives of the humans of Wycome from red lyrium poisoning, and refusing to abandon the elves of the Alienage when their lives are in danger from approaching Marcher city-states, despite the fact that the clan could have easily saved themselves.

 

Even our previous companion, Merrill, viewed the Andrastian elves as 'elves', and said that their plight matters, and she was culturally and religiously Dalish. Merrill is even watching over and protecting the elves who were left homeless in the wake of the Mage-Templar War.

 

If this comes as a surprise to anyone they were not paying attention.  The only way to really romance her is to NOT fully dive into the Dalish pool.  If she see's you sticking a toe in she will freak.  But that is only true if you are a devout Dalish.  Agnostics don't usually have an issue.

 

Yeah, I think plenty of people are already aware of her ultimatum to Lavellan to give up her religion.

 

Yes she does disparage "tree" in every alienage, but I got a vibe that it had more to do with her feeling like that was a VERY pale attempt at being like the Dalish(which in its full on "we are the last of the true elves" mode she lothes).

 

Which isn't what the Dalish are about, as they are trying to preserve the last of Elvehanan culture, which is why there are some similarities between the Dalish and Andrastian elves of the Alienage.

[alwaysquestions]

Oooh, somebody read my "about me" page! I feel like that never happens!

 

I didn't, I'm a postdoc and it was painfully obvious.

 

I only skimmed your post, I'm sorry. I couldn't do more, there were so many verbosely presented "insights" such as: "Identity in the real world is full of a humongous mixture of traits and hallmarks..." Or the groan inducingly condescending explanation of complexities of black identity. "Even within America, blackness is deeply geographical, gendered, and class-divided." I think even undergrads fresh in college wouldn't be impressed by this level of observation. And I'm obviously not a social scientist so I don't have particularly high expectations.

 

I didn't know about Jason Whitlock, that was sort of informative. So thank you for that one. But in general don't they teach you in whatever you do to write for conciseness and clarity when you're trying to impress, as you appear to be? Especially people outside of your area. I'm not even talking about tone, that is probably intentionally antagonistic, and understandably so for having fun on the internets.

 

(I'm assuming you're a grad student, feel free to correct me)