Red Crossing didn't happen in a vacuum. The scroll even says that the female knight was outraged because her sister had been killed just for wandering too close to a path traveled by humans.
Propagandists look for simple solutions and slogans. Real history never works like that.
Kindly prove this.
It must be simple to do, since all of you'll keep repeating it.
You're taking the scroll at Red Crossing at face value, but not all of it?Kindly prove this.
It must be simple to do, since all of you'll keep repeating it.
Wow, Its like...again, not going there.
1) He claims they killed her, but does he offer any proof or eveidence to suggest that she was in fact murdered in cold blood? Oh wait, he doesn't. He only offers his suspicion, so yeah, not cherry picking but more like you reading into things that are not there.
There's no point going beyond this. If you are not going to believe what he says about Siona's sister you cannot believe what happens in Red Crossing either.
You're taking the scroll at Red Crossing at face value, but not all of it?
Anyway, I know your game. Not playing it.
He was not there to witness her death, and thus he has no proof of the nature of her death beyond his suspicion.There's no point going beyond this. If you are not going to believe what he says about Siona's sister you cannot believe what happens in Red Crossing either.
"Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory. Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path."
This is taken from the exact same codex entry that details what happens in Red Crossing. You can't just cherry-pick the parts you like and ignore everything that doesn't fit. One codex-entry written by a Dalish elf found in an elven ruin centuries after the fact is "hard evidence" that the Dalish brought the war that nearly wiped them out on themselves, but when multiple codex entries indicate that the Chantry was trying to force conversion it's just the Dalish making stuff up. Good to know.
Yep no one comes out of it well.
He was not there to witness her death, and thus he has no proof of the nature of her death beyond his suspicion.
He was there when when they killed innocent people in Red Crossing.
See the difference mate?
The difference is that you're willing to give the humans the benefit of the doubt, but not the Dalish. It's not spelled out that Siona murdered the human woman either, you can easily make a case that it was accidental, but you're happy enough treating it as 100% premeditated murder.
...I think you're being sarsactic, cause if so, right on man.
If not...well, "hey Humans, sorry that we killed an entire town and sparked a 10 year war and then spend years wrongly blaming humans for our own stupidity with a painful air of arrogance, but hell, have a halla."
....
I'm actually going to agree with the pro-elves on this point.
Yes, the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked and unforced and it did lead to a devastating war but the elves lost.
It has been 700 years and, at this point, Red Crossing is most likely better off than any Dalish clan out there.
The fact they send an Halla is quite gracious, when they have so little.
A mating pair would have made more sense but whatever.
Where have I even suggested it was premeditated? I merely claim it cold blooded, which is far better than your attempt to now paint it as accidental.
Accidental, lol. The woman was coming right at her and the Elven lass just arrow'd her. Nothing accidental about it at all.
No, no. Totally agree with you there, they obviously never intended for what happened to actually take place.Maybe premeditated isn't the right word, but when you say the elves illegally crossed the border then killed an innocent woman and butchered a town it sounds like you're arguing they invaded specifically to kill her and the other humans.
Yes right at her, in the dim moonless night and through the trees. Those are perfect conditions to identify someone running straight at you while shouting and carrying an unidentifiable object in their hands.
What the hell does well armed, well trained Emerald Knight have to fear of a village girl? Secondly, even if she felt the need to defend herself, why a killshot?
A question many ask of police officers today.
But it was dark and a woman was running towards her with something in hand. The elf couldn't make out what, it seems. Whether the elven woman shot the girl out of petty spite and her clouded mind desiring vengeance or out of instinct and self-defense, I can't say. The waters are far too muddied.
EDIT: Then again, I remember The Stolen Throne, for all that blasted book was crappy in quality, saying Elves had great night vision. So meh, how much she made out I can't say. For all I know that bit of lore about Elven sight was retconned. Although even great night vision can only go so far, I suppose, on a moonless night.
Was it cloudy? Was there a fog? What were the exact weather conditions other then a dark night with no moon? We just don't know.
Me, I remain President Neutral on the matter of the Elven woman's intentions when firing the arrow.
Depends which clan you're talking about. The Dalish aren't really a singular entity. Different clans have different customs. Clan Lavellan and Alerion don't do it for example.
That's an excellent point. The same is true for Zathrian's clan, who allowed Aneirin to be part of their community despite already having three mages (with Zathrian, Lanaya, and Elora), and there's no indication they had any intention of forcing him to leave at any point (particularly given how positively the clan talks about him when the Warden mentions him, i.e. Aneirin the Healer). This may even be true for Ariane's clan, since they recently welcomed an elven Circle mage (as Ariane mentions). If the Order of Templars is dissolved and there are no templars pursuing any of the clans, the clans who did do this may stop, since there would be no threat to the clan from Andrastian forces.
DnD was right. Elves don't need sleep.
not particularly pointed at this post, but in general i don't understand why you continue to inject the views of your specific inquisitor as debatable material. it's impossible for anybody to argue what your specific inquisitor does, or how your inquisitor views events that unfold in your game. there are tangible results that could be discussed, such as what happens when you return the red crossing evidence to the keeper, but other than that it's up to the player - the vast majority of whom aren't you
Throughout this thread, I addressed how the Dalish respond when you give them the scroll (which is to point out how humans and elves played a role in the war, and to give a halla - sacred to the People - to the town of Red Crossing as an olive branch), as well as pointing out all the other issues that existed between the Dales and Orlais long before Red Crossing ever happened.
If you're talking about my post about my Lavellan Inquisitor, that was in response to another poster asking about my Lavellan Inquisitor. It's not intended to be included for debate.
certainly, your opinions are valid, but you present them in a manner that asks for them to somehow be objectively discussed (see: dalish sovereignty over skyhold. unless i'm missing something, there was no point in the game where i was able to get on the throne and claim skyhold for the dalish - not the inquisition - forevermore). unless you're a bioware writer, what goes on in your had is fanfiction
Technically, a Dalish Inquisitor ruling over Skyhold - which is something that happens in every single game with an elven protagonist - is taken directly from the game, and applicable to that particular worldstate. It's also not part of any debate - it was addressed in response to comments about the Dalish in the Dales. This thread hasn't exactly been consistent in discussing Red Crossing, or how "Bestowing Mourning Halla" already addresses humans and elves played a role in the war between humans and elves.
This particular discussion originated with Xil thinking that we should look to the future and not the past, since she thought that perhaps Andrastians and Dalish could reconcile, and I pointed out that Inquisition has some optimistic outcomes for the Dalish where this seems possible, which is why I brought up Clan Lavellan becoming heroes in Wycome, or an elven Inquisitor serving (in the eyes of Andrastians) as a positive symbol for the People.
No, no. Totally agree with you there, they obviously never intended for what happened to actually take place.
But considering they did illegally cross a sovereign border with an armed unit infiltrating a human village on foreign soil...
Can you see why I might be face palming at utter stupidity shown here? Because what happened in the end meant whatever intentions they had going in, it means nothing because like it or not they had inadvertently declared war.
And in regards to the arrow'ing. I have two takes on it. What the hell does well armed, well trained Emerald Knight have to fear of a village girl? Secondly, even if she felt the need to defend herself, why a killshot? Maybe because the girl was an evil human leading her brother astray and needed to die?
I will concede the last part as pure speculation though.
Well I agree that Siona was in the wrong at Red Crossing, but overall I think everyone in that situation was showing extremely poor judgement.
I just don't agree with the prevailing view around here that RC shows the Dalish deserved to get nearly wiped-out of existence.
I'm actually going to agree with the pro-elves on this point.
Yes, the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked and unforced and it did lead to a devastating war but the elves lost.
It has been 700 years and, at this point, Red Crossing is most likely better off than any Dalish clan out there.
The fact they send an Halla is quite gracious, when they have so little.
A mating pair would have made more sense but whatever.
They should have sent the golden halla they made me chase down. Too much pride for that though. Just like there's too much pride to admit they caused the Exalted March on the Dales, "it's everyone's fault," isn't an excuse I'd hold a candle to.
They should have sent the golden halla they made me chase down. Too much pride for that though. Just like there's too much pride to admit they caused the Exalted March on the Dales, "it's everyone's fault," isn't an excuse I'd hold a candle to.
Maybe if the humans offered to apologize for the fall of Arlathan in return.
Oh, wait! Turns out that was the elves' fault too. They really don't give themselves enough credit.
I also like how when given several opportunities to surrender, they refused, even killing delegates. Then when they were smashed to pieces, they grabbed all the servants they could bring and abandoned their lower class who had absolutely no way of leaving without them. At least the nobility of the "Elvhen" has consistently been terrible.
Maybe if the humans offered to apologize for the fall of Arlathan in return.
Oh, wait! Turns out that was the elves' fault too. They really don't give themselves enough credit.
I'm sure there's place to blame humans for that too, you never know.
I'm sure there's place to blame humans for that too, you never know.
Well, I'm pretty sure the Blight's still on humanity. But they own up to it, to the point of basing a religion around it, in fact.
I'm sure the terms of surrender were nothing like "give up your culture and religion and move into ghettos."I also like how when given several opportunities to surrender, they refused, even killing delegates. Then when they were smashed to pieces, they grabbed all the servants they could bring and abandoned their lower class who had absolutely no way of leaving without them. At least the nobility of the "Elvhen" has consistently been terrible.
Well, I'm pretty sure the Blight's still on humanity. But they own up to it, to the point of basing a religion around it, in fact.
Not the right humans, though. The Tevinters apparently blame "not us".
I love this qoute actually history is writen by the victors, I mean if I was and the use of propaganda in any shape and fourm. I wonder if people take words from DAO as truth in these fourms they had to make genocide look morally grey when in truth it's not a morally grey issuse. The results of the Exalted March ended with subjecting the elven race and nearly whipping them out in the process.I heard about Red Crossing here in the forum before I saw it in game, and I actually assumed that the elves had gone on some frenzied pogrom. When I read the actual codex, I just shook my head.
It's an interesting meta-comment on how actual history is handled. Someone with an agenda can never be trusted with it. That's as true in-game as it is in how the fans react to those stories.
Retour en haut
