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[TEWR]

So what does everyone say at this temple? Aside from Dorian, who's been covered.

 

Because I'm at this point yet I don't know who to bring with me. Solas, to be sure, but who else? Should I bring Varric? Cassandra? Dorian, Sera? I NEED TO KNOW.

[Addai]

Thus far the only real interesting comments at the Temple that I've found have been from Solas and Dorian. Solas interacting with Morrigan is especially awesome.

My point was that the situation was quite different. Whereas the elven nobility started a war that annihilated Arlathan the Dwarves didn't.

That the Dwarves treat their casteless like **** is well known, no one would argue the dwarves are blameless in their own fall, but it seems people want to pretend the elves are nice chaps despite them being dickheads.

No one is saying that, though I'm sure there are those who like the victimhood card so much they're upset that the story is actually more complicated. If so, they weren't paying attention even in Origins.

[Kitsune]

The elven attitude to their history and belief that "shems" were always bad guys always bothered me, since Orgins. I liked the fact that in this setting they weren't typical high snobbish elves but were slaves/exiled. And I could never play as a dalish and couldn't understand why.

Thanks to Inquisition, now I know why and have this evil pleasant feeling like "In your face!" Maker, it feels good.

 

In the end, my conclusion is: Noone is right, everyone's at fault.

[PorcelynDoll]

DAI made me lose all empathy for the elves. If any of them try and pull their self righteous crap now I am going to take their head right off. That being said I don't believe they should be slaves or in alienages or wiped out. I just think it's time they got off their high horse and owned up to the facts.

It always bothered me that they blamed humans for everything and were allowed to freely call humans an ethnic slur but Maker forbid you call them knife ear.

[Addai]

The elven attitude to their history and belief that "shems" were always bad guys always bothered me, since Orgins. I liked the fact that in this setting they weren't typical high snobbish elves but were slaves/exiled. And I could never play as a dalish and couldn't understand why.
Thanks to Inquisition, now I know why and have this evil pleasant feeling like "In your face!" Maker, it feels good.
 
In the end, my conclusion is: Noone is right, everyone's at fault.

Whatever the causes originally, they have a right to be bitter and mistrustful now. Finger pointing doesn't excuse the oppression in current-day Thedas. And, there were several comments even in Origins of elves acknowledging they probably had a hand in their own fate.

Bottom line, an entire civilization being lost is a tragic story, and it's only made more tragic by the fact that their losses were somewhat self-inflicted. I don't understand this vindictiveness towards the elves when all we're learning is that they're no better or worse than any of the other races, which should have been obvious. Are the Dalish any more arrogant than the Orlesians or Tevinters?

[ArvinDulku]

DAI made me lose all empathy for the elves. If any of them try and pull their self righteous crap now I am going to take their head right off. That being said I don't believe they should be slaves or in alienages or wiped out. I just think it's time they got off their high horse and owned up to the facts.
It always bothered me that they blamed humans for everything and were allowed to freely call humans an ethnic slur but Maker forbid you call them knife ear.

Lose empathy for the Dalish, is what I think you meant to say.

The city Elves have it bad and fully deserve our sympathy.

Hopefully at some point Bioware allows us to fix that particular elven problem.

Firstly get them out of Alienages with full rights and secondly the Canticle of Shartan returned to the Chant of Light as to ensure they are equals before both religion and country.

But as you said, screw the them Dalish.

[ArvinDulku]

Whatever the causes originally, they have a right to be bitter and mistrustful now. Finger pointing doesn't excuse the oppression in current-day Thedas. And, there were several comments even in Origins of elves acknowledging they probably had a hand in their own fate.

Bottom line, an entire civilization being lost is a tragic story, and it's only made more tragic by the fact that their losses were somewhat self-inflicted. I don't understand this vindictiveness towards the elves when all we're learning is that they're no better or worse than any of the other races, which should have been obvious. Are the Dalish any more arrogant than the Orlesians or Tevinters?

I happen to be very pro-elf, and the Dalish are not the sum total of all Elven existance.

And yes, they are. The Orlesians and Tevinters are at least fully aware of their flaws, they simply do not care what everyone else thinks. I can respect that.

The Dalish on the other hand think they are better than everyone else and have an utter inability to take responsibility for anything, far more content to blame everyone else for their faults.

[PorcelynDoll]

Lose empathy for the Dalish, is what I think you meant to say.

The city Elves have it bad and fully deserve our sympathy.

Hopefully at some point Bioware allows us to fix that particular elven problem.

Firstly get them out of Alienages with full rights and secondly the Canticle of Shartan returned to the Chant of Light as to ensure they are equals before both religion and country.

But as you said, screw the them Dalish.

 You are right. I guess I do still love the city elves in my heart. I have always been a strong supporter of elves, I adore Zevran and Fenris, and it took me over a year to even play a city elf origin because of what happens. But the revelations make me feel disenfranchised with them. I did have Briala as the woman behind Gaspard's throne regardless. And since I have Cullen now my new obsession is Abelas. I just hope the elves listen to him. I would love if his new name meant redeemer.

[Addai]

I happen to be very pro-elf, and the Dalish are not the sum total of all Elven existance.

And yes, they are. The Orlesians and Tevinters are at least fully aware of their flaws, they simply do not care what everyone else thinks. I can respect that.

The Dalish on the other hand think they are better than everyone else and have an utter inability to take responsibility for anything, far more content to blame everyone else for their faults.

They're not fully aware, and if they are they pretend they're not.

It's suspiciously convenient to generalize and dismiss an entire, varied group of people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, please stop trying to downplay this, it's exactly why I regretted giving it to the Dalish in the first place and reloaded and went to the Chantry instead.

 

Up to this very point all that was happening were simple border skirmishes between two less than friendly nations. This act turned it into a war.

 

Not only did they kill a chantry sister (more or less for racist reasons), they then procedded to butcher everyone else in the town.

 

This was a completely uprovoked act of war, there is simply no way around that.

 

The Elves destroyed the Dales themselves, not humanity.

But... But... ELVES!.... DALES!....

[Kitsune]

The dalish ARE arrogant as hell, worse than Tevinters and Orlesians. And they consider themselves "true" elves just because their ancestors HAPPENED to break free while city elves' ancestors happened to be enslaved. And after reading The Masked Empire it became obvious that they don't care fot other elves and soon they'd just perish because of their arrogance. (very few dalish accept city elves in their ranks, the ones in Ferelden are more of exception than the rule) And the clans are too different already.

They don't care about anything but their lore which they decided to preserve very selectively. And DA:Inquisition makes it very clear that the lore they preserved is just what was convinient to preserve to feed their "elven pride".

[LobselVith8]

The dalish ARE arrogant as hell, worse than Tevinters and Orlesians. And they consider themselves "true" elves just because their ancestors HAPPENED to break free while city elves' ancestors happened to be enslaved.

You seem to have trouble understanding that some people are not the same as all the people, particularly as we've met many different kinds of people among the Dalish. Some people among the Dalish are narrow-minded; that's true for every ethnic group of Thedas. Some humans don't see the elves as people, as Duncan notes. Some city elves view any elf who leaves the Aliemage as a 'flat ear' who is tossing aside all that makes them elven.

And after reading The Masked Empire it became obvious that they don't care fot other elves and soon they'd just perish because of their arrogance. (very few dalish accept city elves in their ranks, the ones in Ferelden are more of exception than the rule) And the clans are too different already.

No one in the lore claims the clans in Ferelden were the exception. Aside from your baseless claim that few of the Dalish clans accept city elves, you're using the example of one single, atypical clan (who didn't even respect the Dalish prohibition against using magic that involves spirits like most of the clans do, as WoT reads) to condemn all the Dalish.

They don't care about anything but their lore which they decided to preserve very selectively. And DA:Inquisition makes it very clear that the lore they preserved is just what was convinient to preserve to feed their "elven pride".

This is contradicted by the Dalish signing a treaty with the Grey Wardens, by Velanna's clan responding positively when they see Velanna in the company of humans, and by Clan Lavellan going out of their way to save the humans and elves of Wycome.

It's getting incredibly silly how some people pretend as though an entire ethnic group of people are all the same.

[TK514]

Whatever the causes originally, they have a right to be bitter and mistrustful now. Finger pointing doesn't excuse the oppression in current-day Thedas. And, there were several comments even in Origins of elves acknowledging they probably had a hand in their own fate.

Bottom line, an entire civilization being lost is a tragic story, and it's only made more tragic by the fact that their losses were somewhat self-inflicted. I don't understand this vindictiveness towards the elves when all we're learning is that they're no better or worse than any of the other races, which should have been obvious. Are the Dalish any more arrogant than the Orlesians or Tevinters?

 

I think the general acrimony is a BSN phenomenon.  Familiarity and a narrow avenue of interaction has bred stratified resignation.  I don't actually dislike any of the opposite side, and given that we all hang around a game forum arguing about games I suspect we all have a great deal in common, but after years of 'you can't prove we're wrong, so we will treat everything the Dalish say as incontrovertible fact', it is a breath of fresh air that DA:I came in and basically said 'The Dalish were wrong about virtually every single topic of importance'.

 

Though I do roll my eyes at people attempting to justify the Elven actions at Red Crossing as 'the humans were equally at fault'.  Villagers trying to protect their own are not at fault when trained soldiers cut them down.  If it had been an elf village vs Chevaliers, these same people would be thumping their chests and wiping tears from their eyes when talking about those poor courageous elves standing up to human aggression and bigotry.

[LOLandStuff]

It's getting incredibly silly how some people pretend as though an entire ethnic group of people are all the same.

 

Just as silly as you coddling them.

[LobselVith8]

I think the general acrimony is a BSN phenomenon. Familiarity and a narrow avenue of interaction has bred stratified resignation. I don't actually dislike any of the opposite side, and given that we all hang around a game forum arguing about games I suspect we all have a great deal in common, but after years of 'you can't prove we're wrong, so we will treat everything the Dalish say as incontrovertible fact', it is a breath of fresh air that DA:I came in and basically said 'The Dalish were wrong about virtually every single topic of importance'.

Aside from you intentionally misconstruing people pointing out that the Dalish had their own historical account about the Dales (which were followed by people like me pointing out that we simply don't know what the actual truth is), you seem to be confusing 'some' with 'all'.
 

Though I do roll my eyes at people attempting to justify the Elven actions at Red Crossing as 'the humans were equally at fault'.

Considering this is also what Inquisition says in the respective quest, you must be rolling your eyes at the developers as well.
 

Villagers trying to protect their own are not at fault when trained soldiers cut them down. If it had been an elf village vs Chevaliers, these same people would be thumping their chests and wiping tears from their eyes when talking about those poor courageous elves standing up to human aggression and bigotry.

Chevaliers killing innocent elves as part of their initiation rite into the order isn't even remotely comparable to your distortion of what actually happened.

[Steelcan]

Yes, villagers attacking an elf is clearly on par with the destruction and slaughter of an entire town

[Addai]

I think the general acrimony is a BSN phenomenon.  Familiarity and a narrow avenue of interaction has bred stratified resignation.  I don't actually dislike any of the opposite side, and given that we all hang around a game forum arguing about games I suspect we all have a great deal in common, but after years of 'you can't prove we're wrong, so we will treat everything the Dalish say as incontrovertible fact', it is a breath of fresh air that DA:I came in and basically said 'The Dalish were wrong about virtually every single topic of importance'.

As long as you know that's kind of pathetic.
 

Though I do roll my eyes at people attempting to justify the Elven actions at Red Crossing as 'the humans were equally at fault'.  Villagers trying to protect their own are not at fault when trained soldiers cut them down.  If it had been an elf village vs Chevaliers, these same people would be thumping their chests and wiping tears from their eyes when talking about those poor courageous elves standing up to human aggression and bigotry.

I don't see anyone justifying it, rather saying "it's not straightforward" which it isn't. Put two people groups who hate each other side by side and there are going to be tragedies, which have a way of compounding one another. It is politicians and propagandists who try to take a complicated situation and say "it's simple." That's not how real history works, and it's not how this story was written, either.

[Bowie Hawkins]

 
And the Invasion that happened because the Elves enacted an unprovoked act of war...actually, wait, the Elves the ones pushing into Orlais and burning cities. 

 

The Orlesians murdering an Elf for wandering too close to a group of them - which is what started the whole chain of events that sparked the war - was provocation.

[LOLandStuff]

Yes, villagers attacking an elf is clearly on par with the destruction and slaughter of an entire town

 

That village had it coming. It had sexy sisters and stuff.

[LobselVith8]

The Orlesians murdering an Elf for wandering too close to a group of them - which is what started the whole chain of events that sparked the war - was provocation.

Exactly. Both sides have blood on their hands. Humans and elves both played a part in the genesis of the war. I'm also not certain why some people are saying the entire town was destroyed when neither the Chantry not the elven historical accounts make that claim; both simply reference 'an attack'.

[Steelcan]

Exactly. Both sides have blood on their hands. Humans and elves both played a part in the genesis of the war. I'm also not certain why some people are saying the entire town was destroyed when neither the Chantry not the elven historical accounts make that claim; both simply reference 'an attack'.

because the elves then went on to sack Montsimmard, and besiege Val Royeaux itself

 

clearly they are peaceful and wanted to be left alone

[Steelcan]

The Orlesians murdering an Elf for wandering too close to a group of them - which is what started the whole chain of events that sparked the war - was provocation.

its the continuation of the border tensions that had been around, the attack on a population center and the subsequent invasion of Orlais were solely the fault of knife ears

[Bowie Hawkins]

its the continuation of the border tensions that had been around, the attack on a population center and the subsequent invasion of Orlais were solely the fault of knife ears

 

Only if you willfully ignore the fact that the Elven leader's family had been murdered by Orlesians.

[Steelcan]

Only if you willfully ignore the fact that the Elven leader's family had been murdered by Orlesians.

see continued border tensions.

 

The elves were the first to actually invade and destroy population centers

[Bowie Hawkins]

see continued border tensions.

 

The elves were the first to actually invade and destroy population centers

 

The Orlesians provoked that by murdering the Elven leader's family.

 

Also, people keep repeating the claim that the Elves destroyed a population center, but nobody's ever quoted anything from the canonical material in the game itself to support this. Can you cite something to back this "destroyed the whole city" thing up?