891 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

As assumption is not the same thing as the incontrovertible fact you keep trying to claim the massacre of the entire settlement was, so if you want to keep making that claim, then provide some proof of it.

I also throw in words like "attacked" and "sacked" which are supported by in game evidence and codex entries, if my diction is what's causing you issues I advise you to just move past it and onto the actual argument, which is that the elves attacked Red Crossing following border tensions, undeservedly so, and that they continued their invasion afterwards means they are to blame for the war and the subsequent loss of their land

[EmissaryofLies]

so basically the elves deserve to have been pushed into alianages and all their oppression? If only they didn't do the massacere of red crossing, which is indeed horrible, but they did and because that we can oprress the elves without guilt.

 

Exactly; the message is quite loud and clear from Bioware, "f*ck you for ever liking the Dalish, they are literally Hitler".

 

At least Briala worked out.

[EmperorSahlertz]

As assumption is not the same thing as the incontrovertible fact you keep trying to claim the massacre of the entire settlement was, so if you want to keep making that claim, then provide some proof of it.

I LITERALLY JUST pointed out, that there is a codex entry that supports the claim that Red Crossing was attaked by the elves....

[Bowie Hawkins]

There is nothing to admit to, because no one has ever denied it. We KNOW that Siona had lost a sister. 

 

And I JUST cited a codex entry which tells you Red Corssing was attacked by the Elves.. 

 

The humans murdering Siona's sister because of human lies was what caused tensions to get bad enough for the Red Crossing to happen, and your refusal to admit its importance is a fundamental flaw in your continued attempts to paint the Elves as being the only ones who did anything wrong where the Red Crossing is concerned. 

 

And your refusal to admit the importance of the murder of Siona's sister, coupled to your failure to quote the part of the codes entry that you feel backs up your claims makes your statements about people refusing to consider evidence that goes against them ironic enough to build a car out of.

[Ryriena]

The war itself is not clearly black and white, unlike the Iraq war they had more tension beforehand I would liken this too this war to the American Revolution were many issuse led to "the shot heard around the world", ie the Red Crossing incident. In fact, it's short of similar to the Boston massacre since their are many stories about what happened but one thing was known is that the British had open fired on unarmed civilians. History is not always that clear since their are many stories about what truly happened and that is why we should take in everything with a grain of salt.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Exactly; the message is quite loud and clear from Bioware, "f*ck you for ever liking the Dalish, they are literally Hitler".

 

At least Briala worked out.

No the message is more like: "Well, we hope you feel like a complete tool for eating propaganda raw. Enjoy your cold dish of "wake the **** up" and get with the times".

[Steelcan]

Human lies according to whom?  The elves?

[Hellion Rex]

Exactly; the message is quite loud and clear from Bioware, "f*ck you for ever liking the Dalish, they are literally Hitler".

 

At least Briala worked out.

Briala, the same woman who deliberately tried to get rid of those who knew of her past relationship with Celene by sending them in with false information to the Winter Palace?

 

Yeah, swell woman.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The humans murdering Siona's sister because of human lies was what caused tensions to get bad enough for the Red Crossing to happen, and your refusal to admit its importance is a fundamental flaw in your continued attempts to paint the Elves as being the only ones who did anything wrong where the Red Crossing is concerned. 

 

And your refusal to admit the importance of the murder of Siona's sister, coupled to your failure to quote the part of the codes entry that you feel backs up your claims makes your statements about people refusing to consider evidence that goes against them ironic enough to build a car out of.

Holy ****.. I was not aware that you were so delusional....

 

Okay...

 

Well..

 

Firstly, NO ONE is saying taht only the Elves are at fault for the situation. We ALL know that tensions were high betweent he two nations. NO ONE IS DENYING THAT.

 

Secondly, the ONLY importance the death of Siona and Elandrin had, was that it made Siona a trigger happy psychopath set on the path of vengeance. Numberless humans and elves had already died prior to the death of their sister, and this one death of an elf did NOT increase tensions between the two nations in any significant way, since it was ultiamtely an elf of little importance.

 

Thirdly, ONLY the Elves are to blame for the attack of the civilian population of Red Crossing. ONLY. THE. ELVES. The elves sent their military to destroy a civilian target. That is ENTIRELY on the elves. No one else.

 

Fourthly, I was unawaare you ahd an inborn inability to search the internet yourself for the relevant data, but by all means I am happy to oblige:

From the Codex Entry: The Dales: "And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing."

Happy now? It CLEARLY states that the elves attacked Red Crossing. Period.

 

Fifthly, exactly WHAT evidence goes agaisnt the claim that the Elves attacked Red Crossing, or the claim that the Dales and Orlais, as nations, were largely oblivious to the death of Siona and Elandrinn's sister?

[Milan92]

Briala, the same woman who deliberately tried to get rid of those who knew of her past relationship with Celene by sending them in with false information to the Winter Palace?

 

Yeah, swell woman.

 

Kinda funny how after she finds out about her parent's death, who happend to be servants, she has no problem to kill other servants.

 

But hey, all for the greater good right?

[EmissaryofLies]

No the message is more like: "Well, we hope you feel like a complete tool for eating propaganda raw. Enjoy your cold dish of "wake the **** up" and get with the times".

 

Completely disagree; it was the latest endeavor to assassinate any character of that culture and a middle finger to anyone whoever liked them. I shudder to think of the next double decker Bioware will throw them under in the next game.

 

The Briala result is about the only elven thing I liked in this game and even that comes off as mere consolation.

[EmissaryofLies]

Briala, the same woman who deliberately tried to get rid of those who knew of her past relationship with Celene by sending them in with false information to the Winter Palace?

 

Yeah, swell woman.

 

I am talking of the specifics in the epilogue; the benefits to the elven that Morrigan narrates.

[herkles]

I suppose that what happened afterwords to the elves is justified by what the elves did to red crossing(which I will admit was wrong). all the oppression is justfied because of what their ancestors did, right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I suppose that what happened afterwords to the elves is justified by what the elves did to red crossing(which I will admit was wrong). all the oppression is justfied because of what their ancestors did, right?

If the roles were reversed, what do you think the Dales would have done with the Orlesian remnants?

[Dave of Canada]

Exactly; the message is quite loud and clear from Bioware, "f*ck you for ever liking the Dalish, they are literally Hitler".

 

At least Briala worked out.

 

The message from BioWare is that the world isn't black and white and sometimes the blameless victim isn't always blameless.

[LOLandStuff]

Siona's sister. Siona's sister. Siona's sister. Siona's sister. Siona's sister. Siona's sister.

 

I'd be in a coma if I drank each time I read Siona's sister.

[EmissaryofLies]

The message from BioWare is that the world isn't black and white and sometimes the blameless victim isn't always blameless.

 

Victim?

Spoiler

The Dalish are pretty much entirely at fault for their current condition and their ancestors seem to be imitated by Tevinter, slave tattoos and all that.

And Corypheus' orb? Elven in origin wouldn't you know!

 

But you are correct; the world isn't black and white when it comes to the Andrastians, the Dalish on the other hand appear to be blacker than sin.

[Ryriena]

Completely disagree; it was the latest endeavor to assassinate any character of that culture and a middle finger to anyone whoever liked them. I shudder to think of the next double decker Bioware will throw them under in the next game.

The Briala result is about the only elven thing I liked in this game and even that comes off as mere consolation.

The whole three Mages thing also seem like an unnecessary retacon to paint them in a bad light. I mean come on the Dalish send their children Mages away if they have to many, I mean really? They did not seem to do so in DA:O, in fact, they allowed Mages to stay in the clans from what I had seen. In da2, I am told by Merrill that she was traded by her clan to Sarbe. I liked the Dalish, I found a bunch of unnecessary retacon in this game to paint them in a bad light. They had to make the Templars look like a better option, after all, they also pissed all over the Wardens in this game as well.

[raging_monkey]

The whole three Mages thing also seem like an unnecessary retacon to paint them in a bad light. I mean come on the Dalish send their children Mages away if they have to many, I mean really? They did not seem to do so in DA:O, in fact, they allowed Mages to stay in the clans from what I had seen. In da2, I am told by Merrill that she was traded by her clan to Sarbe. I liked the Dalish, I found a bunch of unnecessary retacon in this game to paint them in a bad light. They had to make the Templars look like a better option, after all, they also pissed all over the Wardens in this game as well.

thats what happens when the ME team comes over powow lol (partly joking)

[Medhia_Nox]

It's amazing how these forums can contain so many "moral relativists" who also specialize in determining who deserves what punishment for past actions. 

 

I do not love the Dalish - I actually hate them as I consider them a total parody of the "noble savage" - finding them neither noble (they're petty and vindictive) nor savage (they're far closer to modern eco-hippies than anything truly nature loving).  

 

But they elves don't "deserve" something because of the actions of ancestors... the humans don't "deserve" something because of their actions in the Dale... the Magisters didn't "deserve" to be made into Darkspawn.

 

However - conversely - the actions that befell after are also not punishments - they're just natural progressions of events.  Some people did wrong, so the people who are angry about it do wrong in return.  Just a cycle of stupid sapient a-holes - not unlike the real world. 

[Ryriena]

thats what happens when the ME team comes over powow lol (partly joking)

True

[ArvinDulku]

You're wrong, because what you're referring to was the humans killing Siona's brother in retaliation for Siona panicking and killing the Chantry sister. But if Siona's sister hadn't been murdered by humans because of lies spread by humans, then Siona might not have panicked when the Chantry sister was running toward her.

This is kinda annoying me already, cause all you'll seem to spouting this crap as fact.

You, kinda provide unbiased and recorded proof that Siona's sister was murdered by humans.

Since you'll keep repeating it should be simple no?

[TK514]

As long as you know that's kind of pathetic.
 

 

 

I'm curious how it's pathetic that a conversation that has grown stale over the last 5 years has a new facet to make it fresh again?

[ArvinDulku]

I'm curious how it's pathetic that a conversation that has grown stale over the last 5 years has a new facet to make it fresh again?

Oh, its only pathetic now because its paints the Dalish for exactly what they are.

Petty, racist little d-bag whom moan about how everyone else shafted them rather than take any real responsibility for anything.

I bet If DAI went the other route, they would all be out in force smugly proclaiming how they were right all along.

But now it is "pathetic".

[TK514]

Aside from you intentionally misconstruing people pointing out that the Dalish had their own historical account about the Dales (which were followed by people like me pointing out that we simply don't know what the actual truth is), you seem to be confusing 'some' with 'all'.


Considering this is also what Inquisition says in the respective quest, you must be rolling your eyes at the developers as well.


Chevaliers killing innocent elves as part of their imitation rite into the order isn't even remotely comparable to your distortion of what actually happened.

 

I think you might have read the words I wrote, then promptly ignored the entire meaning.  Come on, Lob.  Not everything is an attack on you.  I specifically did not use 'all' when describing Dalish supporters, nor did I name names.

 

My playthrough certainly didn't have the humans at fault.  It's pretty clear that the elves got pissy that one of their own dared fall in love with a human and made certain decisions so he could be with her, and they ended up murdering a bunch of villagers because of it.  They weren't there to negotiate a trade agreement or to discuss how Farmer Bob's goats kept getting in the elves' pasture.  This wasn't some social faux pas where they used the wrong silverware or insulted the mayor's daughter.  There were there because they were racist bigots and how dare this guy want to be with one of those dirty humans, and then a bunch of human civilians got killed by elven soldiers.

 

And where did you come up with the Chevalier initiation connection?  I provided a purely hypothetical mirror situation where I used 'Chevalier' instead of 'Emerald Knight' and 'elf village' instead of 'human village', considering those would be the mirrors from the respective countries in question.