891 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Ah, that codex on Halla:

"But then, they are shems and shems don't respect anything."

[phaonica]

It seems to me that the events at Red Crossing didn't occur just because "the Dalish attacked a city for no reason." They occurred in part because of a history of conflict between the Orlesians and the Dalish. The Dalish weren't suspicious of humans for no reason. The Humans weren't afraid of the Dalish for no reason. There was a history of conflict there and both sides were somewhat responsible for that tension.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It seems to me that the events at Red Crossing didn't occur just because "the Dalish attacked a city for no reason." They occurred in part because of a history of conflict between the Orlesians and the Dalish. The Dalish weren't suspicious of humans for no reason. The Humans weren't afraid of the Dalish for no reason. There was a history of conflict there and both sides were somewhat responsible for that tension.

Indeed. However BEFORE Red Crossing it wasn't open warfare. AFTER Red Crossing all hell broke loose. So the Dalish did start the war at Red Crossing, however the conflict was much older.

[herkles]

Indeed. However BEFORE Red Crossing it wasn't open warfare. AFTER Red Crossing all hell broke loose. So the Dalish did start the war at Red Crossing, however the conflict was much older.

I imagine that conflict was going to happen as tension were a powder keg something on either side would set it off eventually, it just happened to be started by the elves but both are responsible.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I imagine that conflict was going to happen as tension were a powder keg something on either side would set it off eventually, it just happened to be started by the elves but both are responsible.

Of course it would. It takes two to tango after all. However, the Dalish specifically targeted and eradicated a civillian population hub, and THAT is what is being condemned.

[Master Warder Z_]

I imagine that conflict was going to happen as tension were a powder keg something on either side would set it off eventually, it just happened to be started by the elves but both are responsible.

 

History doesn't work that way unfortunately.

 

The only thing that truly matters in finality is the aggressor.

 

For example.

 

National Socialism is blamed for the second world war but it only took root because of the greed of France, Britain and North America which devastated and dominated post great war germany.

 

It's influence was only stripped away when the republic they imposed fell to extremism.

[Lord Ruby34]

From what I remember of the codexes the fault lies with both parties, the elves went to Red Crossing to find and take back the elf who wanted to marry a human woman and killed her when she ran at them, thinking she was holding a dagger. Turns out it was just a letter, and they were wrong to shoot her. The humans responded by attacking the Dalish, who fought back and killed them. After that the elf found his dead human lover, was crying over her body and was killed by the remaining humans. Neither side is entirely blameless there. 

[LobselVith8]

I think you might have read the words I wrote, then promptly ignored the entire meaning. Come on, Lob. Not everything is an attack on you. I specifically did not use 'all' when describing Dalish supporters, nor did I name names.

Considering the conversations were almost always about people pointing out that the Dalish simply had their own historical account (with most people saying we didn't know who was right or wrong), while some people pretended that only the Chantry historical account existed, you were misconstruing what those arguments were actually about.

My playthrough certainly didn't have the humans at fault. It's pretty clear that the elves got pissy that one of their own dared fall in love with a human and made certain decisions so he could be with her, and they ended up murdering a bunch of villagers because of it.

As long as you omit what actually happened and pretend that only the elves committed any wrongdoing, of course.

They weren't there to negotiate a trade agreement or to discuss how Farmer Bob's goats kept getting in the elves' pasture. This wasn't some social faux pas where they used the wrong silverware or insulted the mayor's daughter. There were there because they were racist bigots and how dare this guy want to be with one of those dirty humans, and then a bunch of human civilians got killed by elven soldiers.

So we're ignoring that one of the elves lost their sister to human bigotry, or how it was notated that there was concern the elf would reveal secrets about the Emerald Knights? I'm really not certain why people on your side of the fence are intentionally ignoring all the wrong the humans did, and pretending as though only the elves are to blame.

Even the quest involves the Dalish admitting they were wrong because humans and elves were both responsible for the start of the war, yet this circular discussion remains because certain people in this thread simply ignore these facts.

And where did you come up with the Chevalier initiation connection? I provided a purely hypothetical mirror situation where I used 'Chevalier' instead of 'Emerald Knight' and 'elf village' instead of 'human village', considering those would be the mirrors from the respective countries in question.

The entire village wasn't destroyed, and if you reversed the roles, humans and elves would both be responsible for the murders that were committed by the humans and elves mentioned in the scrolls.

[phaonica]

Indeed. However BEFORE Red Crossing it wasn't open warfare. AFTER Red Crossing all hell broke loose. So the Dalish did start the war at Red Crossing, however the conflict was much older.

 

Even if it were the act that started the war, it wasn't one single act that caused the war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even if it were the act that started the war, it wasn't one single act that caused the war.

There never is.

[LobselVith8]

Indeed. However BEFORE Red Crossing it wasn't open warfare. AFTER Red Crossing all hell broke loose. So the Dalish did start the war at Red Crossing, however the conflict was much older.

Humans and elves started the war, and both sides are to blame, since the scroll reads that this particular incident all started with the murder of an elven woman.

[Br3admax]

Even if it were the act that started the war, it wasn't one single act that caused the war.

No, that's pretty much the agreed upon act that caused the war. If Mexico bombed us right now, we wouldn't blame a cartel that killed people at the border. We'd blame the bombing. 

[Br3admax]

Humans and elves started the war, and both sides are to blame, since the scroll reads that this particular incident all started with the murder of an elven woman.

That's not what the scrolls says. 

[LobselVith8]

That's not what the scrolls says.

Siona's sister being murdered is the pivotal event that helped cause everything that came afterward.

[Br3admax]

Siona's sister being murdered is the pivotal event that helped cause everything that came afterward.

No it's not. They were afraid to lose their secrets the Chantry and Orlais. They also didn't want to loose a dear friend. 

[LobselVith8]

No it's not. They were afraid to lose their secrets the Chantry and Orlais. They also didn't want to loose a dear friend.

The loss of Siona's sister is mentioned as one of the main reasons that compelled this venture in the first place. "Siona sought to save you, to bring you back to us. She had lost a sister, must she also lose a brother?"

[ArvinDulku]

Considering the conversations were almost always about people pointing out that the Dalish simply had their own historical account (with most people saying we didn't know who was right or wrong), while some people pretended that only the Chantry historical account existed, you were misconstruing what those arguments were actually about.

And strange how it turned out they were in fact wrong, and historical Chantry accounts on the war were right huh?
 

As long as you omit what actually happened and pretend that only the elves committed any wrongdoing, of course.

Nope, the Elves started the war via the action at Red Crossing, it's plain as day. you lot ignoring it simply because it done't fit your narrative doesn't make it go away.
 

So we're ignoring that one of the elves lost their sister to human bigotry, or how it was notated that there was concern the elf would reveal secrets about the Emerald Knights? I'm really not certain why people on your side of the fence are intentionally ignoring all the wrong the humans did, and pretending as though only the elves are to blame.

Even the quest involves the Dalish admitting they were wrong because humans and elves were both responsible for the start of the war, yet this circular discussion remains because certain people in this thread simply ignore these facts.

Sigh.

Firstly, kindly point out to me where exactly in that codex is any substantial proof that human murdered Siona's sister? Seriously, don't dodge it, point it out please. Secondly, their attempt to supposedly "protect" militarily secrets is basically the Elves taking an armed commando unit across a sovereign border of a hostile nation, invaded a village, killing people who simply sought top defend themselves. This constitutes a declaration of war, no matter how you twist it, intentions be damned.

I am personally amazed that you'll continue to defend this acts of stupidity and savagery.
 

The entire village wasn't destroyed, and if you reversed the roles, humans and elves would both be responsible for the murders that were committed by the humans and elves mentioned in the scrolls.

Again, that is not what the scroll says at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Humans and elves started the war, and both sides are to blame, since the scroll reads that this particular incident all started with the murder of an elven woman.

Which is only a part of what was going on between the two nations. It didn't start with this elf. The Red Crossing incident COULD be argued to have started with the death of Siona's sister, since it left her a racist trigger happy psychopath out for vengeance, but the incident could also be argued to have started with the murder of the Chantry priestess.

 

Either way, the war started after the elves attacked Red Crossing, since it forced Orlais to respond.

[phaonica]

No, that's pretty much the agreed upon act that caused the war. If Mexico bombed us right now, we wouldn't blame a cartel that killed people at the border. We'd blame the bombing. 

 

It would depend. If there were a current and violent history (skirmishes) between the US and Mexican government that one side initiated as much as the other, then no I wouldn't blame the war on just one bombing, I'd blame it on a ongoing history of conflict between the two.

[ArvinDulku]

The loss of Siona's sister is mentioned as one of the main reasons that compelled this venture in the first place. "Siona sought to save you, to bring you back to us. She had lost a sister, must she also lose a brother?"

So? How does this change the fact they illegally crossed a border, invaded a village and then killed innocent people defending themselves from an armed hostile force?

You seem to be unable to accept the fact intentions mean nothing, their reasons for going to Red Crossing are irrelevant as it is their actions which declare war against Orlais.

[myahele]

And now elves are purged occasionally to control the alienage population

[ArvinDulku]

And now elves are purged occasionally to control the alienage population

And? What does that have to do with this discussion?

[TEWR]

because the elves then went on to sack Montsimmard, and besiege Val Royeaux itself

 

clearly they are peaceful and wanted to be left alone

 

No one's saying that the Elves didn't royally **** things up. What people are saying is that everyone royally cocked things up. That's the entire point of border tensions. People on both sides **** up

 

Sequence of events is this:

 

1) Elven woman is killed, circumstances are suspicious.

2) Elven knight who is sister calls for vengeance. Different Elven knight disappears routinely and acts differently around his other mounties with attitude.

3) Female Elven knight leads a group into Red Crossing hoping to find the vanished knight.

4) Female Elven knight sees a young woman coming towards her in the dark of the night, with it ambiguous as to her intentions when firing the arrow at the young woman.

5) Young woman was followed out of town* by villagers, who attacked the Elven group upon seeing her corpse. Codex makes it seem the villagers were not far behind the young woman

6) group of people is killed by the group of Elven knights.

7) Elandrin comes and finds his dead lover and takes her into his arms, grieving and not willing to move. Elven knights can do nothing to change his mind and leave him

8) Elandrin is murdered in cold blood by more of Red Crossing's villagers, his body disposed of in the river, then picked up by his brothers and sisters.

9) Word spreads of an attack on Red Crossing. Orlais declares war against the Dales.

10) The Elves of the Dales muster their army and fight back against Orlais and swiftly defeat their enemies.

11) When Val Royeaux is threatened, the Chantry calls for an Exalted March against the Dales, though Mother Giselle points out that only Orlais truly answered the call.

 

*I'm wondering since the humans were so close behind the young woman if they suspected her of what Siona suspected Elandrin of -- meaning turning traitor.

[Br3admax]

It would depend. If there were a current and violent history (skirmishes) between the US and Mexican government that one side initiated as much as the other, then no I wouldn't blame the war on just one bombing, I'd blame it on a ongoing history of conflict between the two.

There is no history of warfare with Orlais or the Dales. People who lived within them fought with each other. The Exalted March is when they actually both declared war on each other.

 

The loss of Siona's sister is mentioned as one of the main reasons that compelled this venture in the first place. "Siona sought to save you, to bring you back to us. She had lost a sister, must she also lose a brother?"

Go read the scroll again. That may be why Siona spied on him, but they attacked Red Crossing to not lose vital intel, especially not to another god and humans. Red Crossing sparked the war.

[TEWR]

So? How does this change the fact they illegally crossed a border, invaded a village and then killed innocent people defending themselves from an armed hostile force?

You seem to be unable to accept the fact intentions mean nothing, their reasons for going to Red Crossing are irrelevant as it is their actions which declare war against Orlais.

 

You still make it sound like the Elves just saw some villagers and went "OH BOY SOME SHEMLEN TO KILL!!!". The only person who might've been like that is Siona, upon seeing the human woman.

 

The humans saw one of their own dead before them and made a hasty judgement about the situation and responded accordingly and understandably, if still rashly.

 

Which is only a part of what was going on between the two nations. It didn't start with this elf. The Red Crossing incident COULD be argued to have started with the death of Siona's sister, since it left her a racist trigger happy psychopath out for vengeance, but the incident could also be argued to have started with the murder of the Chantry priestess.

 

Either way, the war started after the elves attacked Red Crossing, since it forced Orlais to respond.

 

What murder of a Chantry priestess?