*I'm wondering since the humans were so close behind the young woman if they suspected her of what Siona suspected Elandrin of -- meaning turning traitor.
can't we just say that both sides were at fault and move on?
What murder of a Chantry priestess?
can't we just say that both sides were at fault and move on?
We're trying to. It's not going very well. I think we need more halla.
can't we just say that both sides were at fault and move on?
can't we just say that both sides were at fault and move on?
No, this was not a war of humans vs. elves, as the Dalish try to make it out to be. This was Orlais vs. the Dales. The Dales refusing to punish their own elite guard and make amends started this war. Them thinking carving through Orlais was a good idea started this war. They are the only ones to blame. Any other bigotry is debateable. This is absolute.
No, this was not a war of humans vs. elves, as the Dalish try to make it out to be. This was Orlais vs. the Dales. The Dales refusing to punish their own elite guard and make amends started this war. Them thinking carving through Orlais was a good idea started this war. They are the only ones to blame. Any other bigotry is debateable. This is absolute.
There is no history of warfare with Orlais or the Dales.
Wast there not? I thought there were skirmishes. And the codex does say "Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory"
regardless if it was humans vs elves or Orlais vs Dale, the fact is you can't just go "Orlais/the humans was pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay." likewise you can't go "the elves/dales were pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay" In war, it is never black and white.
The Dalish dug their own grave and pointed the blame at the pious and just humans, as Bioware decrees, all the while they run around yammering about a history that they can't even begin to understand. It's pretty damn funny when I detach myself from it, to be honest.
regardless if it was humans vs elves or Orlais vs Dale, the fact is you can't just go "Orlais/the humans was pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay." likewise you can't go "the elves/dales were pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay" In war, it is never black and white.
Who said the humans were pure? This is about what caused the war, not about who was right. Siona jumping the gun and shooting some woman who has paper in her hands, and the she and her fellows going on to shittedly cover it up was stupid. If anything, a logical government would have killed the "traitor," not leave a huge mess of the people said traitor is going to. But these have never been the most logical of people. Protecting their secrets, however, is something any government would do. that's just common sense.
Wast there not? I thought there were skirmishes. And the codex does say "Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory"
Humans. Not Orlais. Orlesians probably, though. "Officially" these were denounced. The Dales could have avoided war by doing the same. That and not invading Orlais like a bunch of simpletons.
Pointless thread tbh, the pro Dalish brigade will just say "lol nope, the humans were at fault & provoked the aggression" no matter the evidence that proves them wrong
Humans. Not Orlais. Orlesians probably, though. "Officially" these were denounced. The Dales could have avoided war by doing the same. That and not invading Orlais like a bunch of simpletons.
Whether it's Humans or Orlesians, there *was* a history of violence between the two, which still means that, no, the "bombing" was not the sole reason that the war occurred. The war occurred because both sides had a history of wronging the other and neither side would back down.
regardless if it was humans vs elves or Orlais vs Dale, the fact is you can't just go "Orlais/the humans was pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay." likewise you can't go "the elves/dales were pure and never wrong and everything they did is a-okay" In war, it is never black and white.
No one has ever suggested that humanity is pure and never wrong, or that everything they do is a-okay. Just the opposite, in fact. Humanity's many flaws are clear and unambiguous throughout the setting.
This debate stems from the Dalish (and often their supporters) being completely unwilling to accept that sometimes the Dalish are wrong, sometimes they are solely wrong, and occasionally they are just plain stupid.
Heaven forbid the Dalish ever be in a situation where they aren't a wronged party.
No one has ever suggested that humanity is pure and never wrong, or that everything they do is a-okay. Just the opposite, in fact. Humanity's many flaws are clear and unambiguous throughout the setting.
This debate stems from the Dalish (and often their supporters) being completely unwilling to accept that sometimes the Dalish are wrong, sometimes they are solely wrong, and occasionally they are just plain stupid.
Heaven forbid the Dalish ever be in a situation where they aren't a wronged party.
my issue is this:
in war and in politics, you can not say that one side is pure in this case the humans/orlais, and you may not say that but by saying "IT IS ALL THE ELVES FAULT" then you are by virtue saying it is NOT Orlais or the humans fault. I fully admit that the elves did horrible things, red crossing was horrible and it was their fault, or at least the dalish government should have tried to defuse the tension, but didn't. In either case they bear some of the blame, but if you were to say they bare all the blame that is wrong as well. War and politics between nations is never 1 sided. Both nations are in the wrong for things they did during this whole time and exalted march.
Whether it's Humans or Orlesians, there *was* a history of violence between the two, which still means that, no, the "bombing" was not the sole reason that the war occurred. The war occurred because both sides had a history of wronging the other and neither side would back down.
They went to war because the actual Dale governments warriors, that's the Emerald Knights, attacked Orlesian citizens, that's the village of Red Crossing, for no reason. Without evidence of anything more than one being a little to pretty for her own good. Then they invaded Orlais. It's so clear and cut that it's actually pretty said that anyone tries to excuse it as little more than, "Everyone's fault." It's very firmly on the nobility of the Dales. Petty feuds between non-government civilians mean nothing when the actual government of the Dales ignores the actions of their army.
They went to war because the actual Dale governments warriors, that's the Emerald Knights, attacked Orlesian citizens, that's the village of Red Crossing, for no reason. Without evidence of anything more than one being a little to pretty for her own good. Then they invaded Orlais. It's so clear and cut that it's actually pretty said that anyone tries to excuse it as little more than, "Everyone's fault." It's very firmly on the nobility of the Dales. Petty feuds between non-government civilians mean nothing when the actual government of the Dales ignores the actions of their army.
so everything that the humans and orlais did during the exlated march was GREAT AND RIGHTIOUS! good to know that it was a great holy war, and all the slaughter and killing was justified. that Orlais and the humans are pure while all the blame is on the elves. well now I knwo that the elves were evil monsters of doom and the humans were angels
so everything that the humans and orlais did during the exlated march was GREAT AND RIGHTIOUS! good to know that it was a great holy war, and all the slaughter and killing was justified. that Orlais and the humans are pure while all the blame is on the elves. well now I knwo that the elves were evil monsters of doom and the humans were angels
Again, putting words in people's mouths. He never said anything about humanity's actions during the war. Which, by the way, are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is Red Crossing.
so everything that the humans and orlais did during the exlated march was GREAT AND RIGHTIOUS! good to know that it was a great holy war, and all the slaughter and killing was justified. that Orlais and the humans are pure while all the blame is on the elves. well now I knwo that the elves were evil monsters of doom and the humans were angels
tl;dr is a lot less words to type. I never said anything close to this. In fact, I said the exact opposite a few posts up. War is not great. War is not glorious. War is not righteous. War is not pure. War is harsh. War is brutal. War is a means to an end. War brings death. This was war plain and simple, and the Dalish were its cause. They are also the ones who prolonged this war, forcing their lower class to remain in a homeland now made foreign. Was Orlais partitioning the land right? No. Here, Orlais was very wrong. Forcing those not noble enough to flee into alienages was wrong. That does not matter in the slightest to the topic at hand. Orlais fighting the people destroying and pillaging their country? Completely justified.
They went to war because the actual Dale governments warriors, that's the Emerald Knights, attacked Orlesian citizens, that's the village of Red Crossing, for no reason. Without evidence of anything more than one being a little to pretty for her own good. Then they invaded Orlais. It's so clear and cut that it's actually pretty said that anyone tries to excuse it as little more than, "Everyone's fault." It's very firmly on the nobility of the Dales. Petty feuds between non-government civilians mean nothing when the actual government of the Dales ignores the actions of their army.
But they didn't attack Red Crossing for no reason. They approached because humans had given them reasons to be suspicious in the past. And do we know that the skirmishes between the two was only non-government civilian conflicts? Do we know neither government wasn't involved in them?
so everything that the humans and orlais did during the exlated march was GREAT AND RIGHTIOUS! good to know that it was a great holy war, and all the slaughter and killing was justified. that Orlais and the humans are pure while all the blame is on the elves. well now I knwo that the elves were evil monsters of doom and the humans were angels
But they didn't attack Red Crossing for no reason. They approached because humans had given them reasons to be suspicious in the past. And do we know that the skirmishes between the two was only non-government civilian conflicts? Do we know neither government wasn't involved in them?
nope. it was whole the elves fault. the humans did nothing wrong. they were completly innocent.
herks. Have i said i love your wit/sarcasmism hahanope. it was whole the elves fault. the humans did nothing wrong. they were completly innocent.
They went to war because the actual Dale governments warriors, that's the Emerald Knights, attacked Orlesian citizens, that's the village of Red Crossing, for no reason. Without evidence of anything more than one being a little to pretty for her own good. Then they invaded Orlais. It's so clear and cut that it's actually pretty said that anyone tries to excuse it as little more than, "Everyone's fault." It's very firmly on the nobility of the Dales. Petty feuds between non-government civilians mean nothing when the actual government of the Dales ignores the actions of their army.
Yep, gotta say, what happened to them was bad, but they have no one to blame but themselves. Not much different than what happened to snow elves in the elderscrolls. **** 'em.
Their intentions are irrelevant.But they didn't attack Red Crossing for no reason. They approached because humans had given them reasons to be suspicious in the past. And do we know that the skirmishes between the two was only non-government civilian conflicts? Do we know neither government wasn't involved in them?
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