893 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Oh, I agree. I just find it noteworthy that they at least tried to remember the truth and their screw up.

 

The truth? Giving the scroll to Keeper Hawen makes mention of humans and elves committing different acts that culminated in the war between humans and elves, which is why Hawen's clan concedes that they were wrong to think the war was entirely the fault of the humans. This makes sense when you consider this is one incident in a long, bitter history between the Dales and Orlais. We know the issues between the Dales and Orlais was what prevented Drakon from invading the Free Marches. We also know that there was an issue due to the elves in the Dales following their own gods, instead of the Maker. There was also the territorial disputes between the Dales and Orlais.

[Hellion Rex]

The truth? Giving the scroll to Keeper Hawen makes mention of humans and elves committing different acts that culminated in the war between humans and elves, which is why Hawen's clan concedes that they were wrong to think the war was entirely the fault of the humans. This makes sense when you consider this is one incident in a long, bitter history between the Dales and Orlais. We know the issues between the Dales and Orlais was what prevented Drakon from invading the Free Marches. We also know that there was an issue due to the elves in the Dales following their own gods, instead of the Maker. There was also the territorial disputes between the Dales and Orlais.

Yes, but it all leads back to what though? No matter what other issues were happening, what is the thing that people say it stemmed from? Red Crossing. It was the opening salvo of the big fight so to speak, even if it was a mistake.

[SgtSteel91]

Yes, but it all leads back to what though? No matter what other issues were happening, what is the thing that people say it stemmed from? Red Crossing. It was the opening salvo of the big fight so to speak, even if it was a mistake.

 

What? No, Red Crossing was the straw that broke the camel's back, if anything. The OP says that there were skirmishes before the Emerald Knight and Chantry Sister thing happened.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but it all leads back to what though? No matter what other issues were happening, what is the thing that people say it stemmed from? Red Crossing. It was the opening salvo of the big fight so to speak, even if it was a mistake.

Indeed. On both sides.

 

 

What? No, Red Crossing was the straw that broke the camel's back, if anything. The OP says that there were skirmishes before the Emerald Knight and Chantry Sister thing happened.

This as well.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, but it all leads back to what though? No matter what other issues were happening, what is the thing that people say it stemmed from? Red Crossing. It was the opening salvo of the big fight so to speak, even if it was a mistake.

 

You can lead it back to a number of issues, actually, from the divide between the elves who followed the Creators and the humans who worshiped the Maker that was said to have lead to a number of problems, to the schism between the Dales and Orlais that halted Drakon's expansionist ambitions. I'm honestly not seeing why people are looking at Red Crossing, and ignoring the plethora of information that addresses all the other issues that divided the two nations long before it.

 

I also doubt Keeper Hawen and the Dalish of the Exalted Plains would address humans and elves played a part in the war if the history lesson was meant to be one-sided, since that's precisely the reason why the Dalish concede they were wrong.

 

All that aside, it's more than a little odd to see the same people who claim that the templars can't be vilified for the actions of a few do precisely that to an entire ethnic group.

[Hellion Rex]

What? No, Red Crossing was the straw that broke the camel's back, if anything. The OP says that there were skirmishes before the Emerald Knight and Chantry Sister thing happened.

Perhaps my wording could be better. Forgive me, I'm typing this at the same time that I'm working on final papers, so my brain is a tad scattered at the moment.

 

I think the "shot heard round the world" might be a better phrase to use.

[ArvinDulku]

The truth? Giving the scroll to Keeper Hawen makes mention of humans and elves committing different acts that culminated in the war between humans and elves, which is why Hawen's clan concedes that they were wrong to think the war was entirely the fault of the humans. This makes sense when you consider this is one incident in a long, bitter history between the Dales and Orlais. We know the issues between the Dales and Orlais was what prevented Drakon from invading the Free Marches. We also know that there was an issue due to the elves in the Dales following their own gods, instead of the Maker. There was also the territorial disputes between the Dales and Orlais.

 

No, please stop trying to downplay this, it's exactly why I regretted giving it to the Dalish in the first place and reloaded and went to the Chantry instead.

 

Up to this very point all that was happening were simple border skirmishes between two less than friendly nations. This act turned it into a war.

 

Not only did they kill a chantry sister (more or less for racist reasons), they then procedded to butcher everyone else in the town.

 

This was a completely uprovoked act of war, there is simply no way around that.

 

The Elves destroyed the Dales themselves, not humanity.

[raging_monkey]

You can lead it back to a number of issues, actually, from the divide between the elves who followed the Creators and the humans who worshiped the Maker that was said to have lead to a number of problems, to the schism between the Dales and Orlais that halted Drakon's expansionist ambitions. I'm honestly not seeing why people are looking at Red Crossing, and ignoring the plethora of information that addresses all the other issues that divided the two nations long before it.
 
I also doubt Keeper Hawen and the Dalish of the Exalted Plains would address humans and elves played a part in the war if the history lesson was meant to be one-sided, since that's precisely the reason why the Dalish concede they were wrong.
 
All that aside, it's more than a little odd to see the same people who claim that the templars can't be vilified for the actions of a few do precisely that to an entire ethnic group.

your speaking to the choir my friend hehe

[Xilizhra]

No, please stop trying to downplay this, it's exactly why I regretted giving it to the Dalish in the first place and reloaded and went to the Chantry instead.

 

Up to this very point all that was happening were simple border skirmishes between two less than friendly nations. This act turned it into a war.

 

Not only did they kill a chantry sister (more or less for racist reasons), they then procedded to butcher everyone else in the town.

 

This was a completely uprovoked act of war, there is simply no way around that.

 

The Elves destroyed the Dales themselves, not humanity.

After the town tried to attack them after one botched shooting incident. This isn't a matter of humans being blameless; there was one bloodthirsty idiot on the elf side who was certainly at fault, but that was not in and of itself an act of war.

[ArvinDulku]

After the town tried to attack them after one botched shooting incident. This isn't a matter of humans being blameless; there was one bloodthirsty idiot on the elf side who was certainly at fault, but that was not in and of itself an act of war.

 

Elite Emerald Knights vs simple town folks who probably weren't all that well armed?

 

Right, that obviously means license to simply butcher a town, most like to cover up their act of savagery.

 

Bloody hell.

[Hellion Rex]

After the town tried to attack them after one botched shooting incident. This isn't a matter of humans being blameless; there was one bloodthirsty idiot on the elf side who was certainly at fault, but that was not in and of itself an act of war.

Maybe not, but can you honestly blame human society for perceiving it as an act of war? While the Orlesians might have been in the right, they sure as hell probably didn't know that it was an accident and screw up by the Dalish. All they see is that the Dalish murdered pretty much an entire town. And further, it definitely doesn't appear that the Dalish responsible went to the Orlesians to explain what happened either.

[LobselVith8]

No, please stop trying to downplay this, it's exactly why I regretted giving it to the Dalish in the first place and reloaded and went to the Chantry instead.

 

I'm pointing out the facts. In fact, invading an entire nation over the actions of a few people doesn't really paint Orlais or the Chantry in a better light, either. It's also endlessly absurd to see the same people who said that the Templar Order can't be blamed for rapists like Karras, Alrik, and their cronies suddenly vilify an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children.

 

Up to this very point all that was happening were simple border skirmishes between two less than friendly nations. This act turned it into a war.

 

Things were bad enough between the Dales and Orlais that Drakon couldn't invade the Free Marches, and Emerald Knights were posted to keep the Orlesian humans out. I'm not certain how you construe that as "friendly".

 

Not only did they kill a chantry sister (more or less for racist reasons), they then procedded to butcher everyone else in the town.

 

You mean a few people in an isolated incident, who don't condemn an entire nation of people.

 

This was a completely uprovoked act of war, there is simply no way around that.

 

The Elves destroyed the Dales themselves, not humanity.

 

You mean it was an attack involving a few people, one incident in a long series of skirmishes that originated when Drakon first became Emperor and wanted to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker.

[SgtSteel91]

No, please stop trying to downplay this, it's exactly why I regretted giving it to the Dalish in the first place and reloaded and went to the Chantry instead.

 

What happens when you give it to the Chantry?

[Xilizhra]

Elite Emerald Knights vs simple town folks who probably weren't all that well armed?

 

Right, that obviously means license to simply butcher a town, most like to cover up their act of savagery.

 

Bloody hell.

Which in turn justifies an attempt to massacre an entire culture, etc, etc.

 

Personally, I would think that most Thedosian moral standards would allow you to respond in kind if you're attacked with lethal force, but that's neither here nor there for modern relations.

 

 

Maybe not, but can you honestly blame human society for perceiving it as an act of war? While the Orlesians might have been in the right, they sure as hell probably didn't know that it was an accident and screw up by the Dalish. All they see is that the Dalish murdered pretty much an entire town. And further, it definitely doesn't appear that the Dalish responsible went to the Orlesians to explain what happened either.

Both sides are at fault, but the Andrastian response was breathtakingly excessive. Ultimately though, I'm willing to let bygones be bygones provided that the humans don't try to wipe out Dalish culture again.

[Steelcan]

What happens when you give it to the Chantry?

not much, they say its interesting and give you a reward

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

Both sides are at fault, but the Andrastian response was breathtakingly excessive. Ultimately though, I'm willing to let bygones be bygones provided that the humans don't try to wipe out Dalish culture again.

.

Y'all don't start trouble, there won't be none. At least from my Inquisition.

[Steelcan]

right, so for this "both sides were at fault"

 

where are the accounts of templars and missionaries riding into the Dales forcibly converting people and whatnot?  That's what the Dalish say started the war, this is proven false completely, so I fail to see how the Orlesians are to blame at all

[Xilizhra]

right, so for this "both sides were at fault"

 

where are the accounts of templars and missionaries riding into the Dales forcibly converting people and whatnot?  That's what the Dalish say started the war, this is proven false completely, so I fail to see how the Orlesians are to blame at all

Their attempted genocide of Dalish culture and religion.

 

 

Y'all don't start trouble, there won't be none. At least from my Inquisition.

*would personally like to raze all of the Andrastian monuments in the Dales, but alas possesses no option to :<*

[SgtSteel91]

not much, they say its interesting and give you a reward

 

Lame, giving it to the Dalish all the time every time. Rather have them extend an olive branch even if some disagree on their reasons.

[ArvinDulku]

 

I'm pointing out the facts. In fact, invading an entire nation over the actions of a few people doesn't really paint Orlais or the Chantry in a better light, either. It's also endlessly absurd to see the same people who said that the Templar Order can't be blamed for rapists like Karras, Alrik, and their cronies suddenly vilify an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children.

 
You would have a point if the only person to die was th Sister, I could probably accept that as an accident due to one stupid fool. But to butcher an entire town, to cover it up at that, on soveign foreign soil? And no, the Exalted march was only enacted after the Elves had in fact pushed into Orlais and was burning cities and were at the door of the Capital.

And if you read all the codexes while in the Exalted Plains it is made clear that one of the genreals had in fact offered them an oppurtinity to lay down arms without bloodshed. They filled him with arrows, so any deaths after that point is at their feet as well.
 

Things were bad enough between the Dales and Orlais that Drakon couldn't invade the Free Marches, and Emerald Knights were posted to keep the Orlesian humans out. I'm not certain how you construe that as "friendly".

Read again, I said less than friendly, I never pretended otherwise. But if you can't see the difference between a border skirmish with the cold blooded butchering of an entire town, well....whatever then. 
 

You mean a few people in an isolated incident, who don't condemn an entire nation of people.
 
You mean it was an attack involving a few people, one incident in a long series of skirmishes that originated when Drakon first became Emperor and wanted to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker.

These mean nothing, as Orlais has no way of knowing this was supposedly an "accident", all they know is the elves came over to their side of the border and KILLED AN ENTIRE TOWN IN COLD BLOOD.

Stop trying to dogde the point.

[Steelcan]

Their attempted genocide of Dalish culture and religion.

Not what I meant, for the longest time the pro-Dalish response to "elves started the war" was "no, the humans did by sending in templars after the missionaries to convert elves"

 

so where is the bloody proof?

 

If there is none we can safely assume it was a fabrication by the elves to justify their aggression, thus removing blame from the Orlesians, therefore making the conflict not the fault of both sides

[raging_monkey]

Their attempted genocide of Dalish culture and religion.
 
 

*would personally like to raze all of the Andrastian monuments in the Dales, but alas possesses no option to :<*

everytime i start start to get your back yah say crazy extremist shite that proves your similar to those you hate lol

[Xilizhra]

Not what I meant, for the longest time the pro-Dalish response to "elves started the war" was "no, the humans did by sending in templars after the missionaries to convert elves"

 

so where is the bloody proof?

 

If there is none we can safely assume it was a fabrication by the elves to justify their aggression, thus removing blame from the Orlesians, therefore making the conflict not the fault of both sides

That probably happened as a tension-raising incident before the scroll.

 

In any case, the Orlesians' fault was in the genocide.

[Xilizhra]

everytime i start start to get your back yah say crazy extremist shite that proves your similar to those you hate lol

Ah, the horrors of kicking rocks over?

[ArvinDulku]

Not what I meant, for the longest time the pro-Dalish response to "elves started the war" was "no, the humans did by sending in templars after the missionaries to convert elves"
 
so where is the bloody proof?
 
If there is none we can safely assume it was a fabrication by the elves to justify their aggression, thus removing blame from the Orlesians, therefore making the conflict not the fault of both sides

....