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[EmissaryofLies]

No one has ever suggested that humanity is pure and never wrong, or that everything they do is a-okay.  Just the opposite, in fact.  Humanity's many flaws are clear and unambiguous throughout the setting.

 

This debate stems from the Dalish (and often their supporters) being completely unwilling to accept that sometimes the Dalish are wrong, sometimes they are solely wrong, and occasionally they are just plain stupid.

 

Heaven forbid the Dalish ever be in a situation where they aren't a wronged party.

 

But that's just the thing; Inquisition claims that the Dalish have always been wrong, about nearly everything in fact.

 

They are not afforded many, if any, meaningful apologists/good guys; they do not get a Giselle, a Cassandra, a Cullen, a Leliana, a Bethany, a Malcolm, a Justinia. They get Blood Mages, xenophobes, pridefully idiotic Keepers, and outright bigots. And among all that rabble a few meaningless exceptions are born. But ultimately, they were the savages that got too big for their britches and they paid dearly for it. And now all that they can do is blame the humans for their problems when they have no one to blame but themselves. The entirety of their identity, a lie. Their noble cause borne of ignorance.

 

They are an absolute joke; a caricature and nothing more.

[Colonelkillabee]

From what I've observed, I think that most, most here that are pro elven just can't accept that the elves had more a hand in this than people thought. Though, while I don't pay all that much attention to the tree huggers, it was kind of obvious that they had a hand in their own fate, no? I could have sworn this was stated in Origins?

 

Anyway, people are confusing "being right" with "being justified", which aren't always the same and are completely relative. To the humans, after you attack our territory and sack our land, everything else is fair game. Alienages and all. Is it right? No. Is it fair? No. Is it justified? Relative. If you ask me, in war, all bets are off. The winner is who decides what is justified. The elves lost and were taken by the enemy so they got no say. As captives of war, they're lucky they didn't get worse. Present day is a different story.

[Evamitchelle]

From what I've observed, I think that most, most here that are pro elven just can't accept that the elves had more a hand in this than people thought. Though, while I don't pay all that much attention to the tree huggers, it was kind of obvious that they had a hand in their own fate, no? I could have sworn this was stated in Origins?

No my problem is people using their vast oversimplification of what happened at Red Crossing as proof that today's Dalish all deserve to die (not necessarily in this thread, but I've seen it in plenty others). 

[Steelcan]

No my problem is people using their vast oversimplification of what happened at Red Crossing as proof that today's Dalish all deserve to die (not necessarily in this thread, but I've seen it in plenty others). 

Where is the oversimplification in "following border tensions elven emerald knights attacked Red Crossing and then started an invasion of Orlais"

[Colonelkillabee]

No my problem is people using their vast oversimplification of what happened at Red Crossing as proof that today's Dalish all deserve to die (not necessarily in this thread, but I've seen it in plenty others). 

Like I said, that's my impression of most here, not all.

 

For those saying the Dalish today deserve to die, I think they're enjoying this news a tad too much. I mean, that's like learning that the Muslims weren't actually the innocent party in the Crusades, and using that as support that all Muslims deserve death. Absurd.

 

It is important to know though, since the Dalish like to pretend that the humans are the cause of all their problems. Well, not all of them since I know someone mentioned otherwise in Origins, or you read it somewhere. Anyway, I liked hearing this story because it helps put a sock in the mouths of those blaming humans for all the world's issues, but I wouldn't say the current Dalish today deserve death for the mistakes of their ancestors anymore than I'd say mages all deserve death for the actions of ancient Tevinter.

 

That said, Dalish do wear on my nerves. I care little about them personally. **** 'em.

 

Though I do help them in game. Because they're useful to me mainly.

[Colonelkillabee]

Where is the oversimplification in "following border tensions elven emerald knights attacked Red Crossing and then started an invasion of Orlais"

Yea, that much seems rather cut and dry to me. Don't much give a damn about the love story tie in, it matters little in matters of military and border tensions.

[Evamitchelle]

Where is the oversimplification in "following border tensions elven emerald knights attacked Red Crossing and then started an invasion of Orlais"

 

Most people ignore the border tensions as "that's just the way things are they don't mean anything" and just go straight to "racist elves massacred humans because one of them was doing a pretty human woman".

[Colonelkillabee]

Most people ignore the border tensions as "that's just the way things are they don't mean anything" and just go straight to "racist elves massacred humans because one of them was doing a pretty human woman".

How is that not the case? From what I understand, that's exactly what happened.

[Br3admax]

They want to think that the border conflicts were a cause of the war, which is the topic of this thread. They didn't. I'll be the first to say humans are terrible. The point is so are elves, and in this case the Dales. I could go into why the modern Dalish are awful, but that's not the topic of this thread. 

[phaonica]

Their intentions are irrelevant.

An armed elven force illegally crossed a sovereign border and attacked innocent civilians.

At this point, their reasoning are not important.

I don't see how this is hard to understand.

And considering there is no factual evidence towards the nature of said border skirmishes, it is irrelevant as well.

Red Crossing began the war, to which the Dales decided rather than giving up the elves who began this to Orlais for judgement, they instead pushes into Orlais and began sacking cities.

Yay Elves.

 

You said they attacked Red Crossing for no reason, which implied that if they'd had a reason, it might have mattered. The codex says they had "fought along the borders", which some have called skirmishes, so I did the same. And I am not aware of the evidence that says that after Red Crossing the Dalish immediately pressed into Orlais and began sacking other cities, so maybe you can point me to where that evidence is.

 

I don't know... is it fair to say that the mages are solely responsible for the mage-templar war because of the bombing of the Chantry?

[Colonelkillabee]

It doesn't really matter who was worse than who. The point is elves killed a human on their territory, and they paid the price. Short and sweet. Whether or not the killing was accidental or hateful, doesn't really matter does it?

[Steelcan]

It doesn't really matter who was worse than who. The point is elves killed a human on their territory, and they paid the price. Short and sweet. Whether or not the killing was accidental or hateful, doesn't really matter does it?

and that's just part of the "border skirmishes"

 

when they crossed the border and sacked Red Crossing, now we are in open war

[herkles]

Where is the oversimplification in "following border tensions elven emerald knights attacked Red Crossing and then started an invasion of Orlais"

none. it is 100% the fault of the evil pyscho elven knights who wanted to slaughter humans for fun and games that everything happened. As it is 100%, wholy the elves fault, because remember they are evil pyscho knights who like to kill, then by extrapolation it can not be the humans fault at all. meaning that the humans are innocent of it.   after all if one is wholly responsible for an action, then that means the other party is perfectly innocenct.

 

 

or maybe the line "following border tensions" which would indicate that the whole damn thing was a powder keg. That both sides might have wanted a war. That it was just going to explode at any point. It could have just as easily been the humans, but it was the elves. they had skirmishes and tension was high. there was a breaking point and then war. But the fact that this happened before exusces the humans of all guilt or blame and the dalish are 100% responsible for everything

 

Question Br3admax, could you describe the good qualities of the modern dalish or do they not have any

[phaonica]

From what I've observed, I think that most, most here that are pro elven just can't accept that the elves had more a hand in this than people thought. Though, while I don't pay all that much attention to the tree huggers, it was kind of obvious that they had a hand in their own fate, no? I could have sworn this was stated in Origins?

 

I don't know. I don't mind saying that yes, the Dalish were the ones who attacked Red Crossing and bare the responsibility for that. What I'm not convinced is that the Dalish were, and Red Crossing was, the one and only reason that war broke out between the two.

[Br3admax]

 

Question Br3admax, could you describe the good qualities of the modern dalish or do they not have any

I sure could. Too bad that still isn't the topic of this thread. 

[Evamitchelle]

How is that not the case? From what I understand, that's exactly what happened.

 

It completely ignores the religious aspect of the war, which really is the most important one.

 

The Emerald Knights didn't go after Elandrin because he fell in love with a human, they went to Red Crossing to "bring him back or bring him to justice" because they thought he was going to convert to the Maker and betray them. This in the context of the Chantry trying to convert the Dales to the Maker against their wishes. 

[ArvinDulku]

You said they attacked Red Crossing for no reason, which implied that if they'd had a reason, it might have mattered. The codex says they had "fought along the borders", which some have called skirmishes, so I did the same. And I am not aware of the evidence that says that after Red Crossing the Dalish immediately pressed into Orlais and began sacking other cities, so maybe you can point me to where that evidence is.

I don't know... is it fair to say that the mages are solely responsible for the mage-templar war because of the bombing of the Chantry?

In 2:9 Glory the elves attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly took it over.[10] Orlais declared war, but the elves quickly managed to capture Montsimmard and besieged Val Royeaux. At this point, Divine Renata I called for an Exalted March against the attacking elves. Although the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory.

That is directly from WOT, vol 1, pg 72.

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't know. I don't mind saying that yes, the Dalish were the ones who attacked Red Crossing and bare the responsibility for that. What I'm not convinced is that the Dalish were, and Red Crossing was, the one and only reason that war broke out between the two.

Neither am I personally. It's never that simple. The final straw that broke the camel's back though is all we have to go by however. The rest is guesswork and honestly not very relevant anyway. It might be for those who care about morality and such, but at the end of the day the elves gave the Orlesians the excuse they needed to retaliate fully and that's all that really matters.

[Br3admax]

It completely ignores the religious aspect of the war, which really is the most important one.

It's really not. This may have been an "Exalted March," but all evidence points to this being a war between Orlais and the Dales, including the fact that it was almost exclusively fought by troops from Orlais. 

[Steelcan]

I don't know. I don't mind saying that yes, the Dalish were the ones who attacked Red Crossing and bare the responsibility for that. What I'm not convinced is that the Dalish were, and Red Crossing was, the one and only reason that war broke out between the two.

this gets down to the differences between what causes a war and why a war starts

 

for example:  The Second Punic War was caused by two competing Mediterranean powers competing for trade, influence, land etc... the rapid economic recovery of Carthage after the First Punic War, and Rome's imperialistic ambitions in Spain

 

However it started after Hannibal Barca moved his army past a "DMZ" essentially, and attacked a Roman ally

[Steelcan]

It completely ignores the religious aspect of the war, which really is the most important one.

 

The Emerald Knights didn't go after Elandrin because he fell in love with a human, they went to Red Crossing to "bring him back or bring him to justice" because they thought he was going to convert to the Maker and betray them. This in the context of the Chantry trying to convert the Dales to the Maker against their wishes. 

damn humans believing differently than the elves, can't have them converting people now

[herkles]

damn humans believing differently than the elves, can't have them converting people now

damn elves for not embracing the love of the maker and his beloved prophet Andraste, we can't have them worshiping those false gods. 

[Colonelkillabee]

It completely ignores the religious aspect of the war, which really is the most important one.

 

The Emerald Knights didn't go after Elandrin because he fell in love with a human, they went to Red Crossing to "bring him back or bring him to justice" because they thought he was going to convert to the Maker and betray them. This in the context of the Chantry trying to convert the Dales to the Maker against their wishes. 

Religious matters do not supersede matters of government. It's their territory, so who converts to what in Orlais is none of their business. They may have thought him traitor, but that isn't the Orlesian's problem. They should have negotiated his return. I doubt they'd be so excited to have an elf fooling with a human in their land.

[Steelcan]

damn elves for not embracing the love of the maker and his beloved prophet Andraste, we can't have them worshiping those false gods. 

we don't have any evidence that the humans were proselytizing in the Dales, he wanted to convert to be with the woman he loved, how horrid

[Evamitchelle]

It's really not. This may have been an "Exalted March," but all evidence points to this being a war between Orlais and the Dales, including the fact that it was almost exclusively fought by troops from Orlais. 

 

Yes Orlais, aka the seat of the Andrastian Chantry. 

 

“In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods.” Codex entry DAO, Sister Petrine version.

 

“The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars.” Codex entry DAO, Keeper Gisharel version. 

 

“Relations with humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire.” The World of Thedas Vol.1, pg 28

 

“but one last challenge came from the elves, who would not submit to the Maker”

“Sister Amity led the march to the river Tenasir, where stood shrines to the elven gods. These she struck down; standing upon the banks, she sang the Chant of Light. Andraste's Word had come to the Dales, and delivered them from wickedness”. DAI Codex entry, Memorial to the Second Exalted March

 

No you're right, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion. 

 

damn humans believing differently than the elves, can't have them converting people now

 

No wait, are you seriously saying that trying to forcibly convert people is a good thing ?