Religious matters do not supersede matters of government. It's their territory, so who converts to what in Orlais is none of their business. They may have thought him traitor, but that isn't the Orlesian's problem. They should have negotiated his return. I doubt they'd be so excited to have an elf fooling with a human in their land.
They went to RC to "bring him back or bring him to justice". They didn't go to RC intending to punish them for Elandrin's supposed conversion.
there is no evidence whatsoever the emerald knight was being forcibly converted, nor is there any mention of conversions at all outside of Dalish accounts which are obviously biased, and suspect given that they portray the hostility so one-sidedly
And yet it's still irrelevant, because what started the war was elves killing humans on human territory and sacking their city.
The religious side hardly matters when the elves got involved because one of their own willfully converted, not because humans forced him to. They followed him so they knew as much.
They went to RC to "bring him back or bring him to justice". They didn't go to RC intending to punish them for Elandrin's supposed conversion.
It doesn't really matter why they went to RC. They shouldn't have gone at all.
They've survived under incredibly harsh circumstances, and have refused to submit to a humiliating, oppressive assimilation regime where, among other things, pogroms are routinely used as a solution to political problems. That counts for a lot in my book.But that's just the thing; Inquisition claims that the Dalish have always been wrong, about nearly everything in fact.
They are not afforded many, if any, meaningful apologists/good guys; they do not get a Giselle, a Cassandra, a Cullen, a Leliana, a Bethany, a Malcolm, a Justinia. They get Blood Mages, xenophobes, pridefully idiotic Keepers, and outright bigots. And among all that rabble a few meaningless exceptions are born. But ultimately, they were the savages that got too big for their britches and they paid dearly for it. And now all that they can do is blame the humans for their problems when they have no one to blame but themselves. The entirety of their identity, a lie. Their noble cause borne of ignorance.
They are an absolute joke; a caricature and nothing more.
there is no evidence whatsoever the emerald knight was being forcibly converted, nor is there any mention of conversions at all outside of Dalish accounts which are obviously biased, and suspect given that they portray the hostility so one-sidedly
This is just precious. A couple of pages ago you said it's a fair assumption to say the elves burned down Red Crossing despite the fact that codex entries only ever say "attack", but believing the Chantry, who is said to be angry at the elves not following the Maker in 100% objective material (The World of Thedas), and whose entire purpose in life is to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, tried to convert the Dales is totally outlandish. Right.
And I never said anything about Elandrin having been forcibly converted so not sure what you're getting at there.
It doesn't really matter why they went to RC. They shouldn't have gone at all.
Well I agree. Especially not in the middle of the night and with armed Knights. But you said Elandrin converting was their problem, not the Orlesians', and they were trying to deal with this problem themselves. They just went about it in the worst possible way.
They've survived under incredibly harsh circumstances, and have refused to submit to a humiliating, oppressive assimilation regime where, among other things, pogroms are routinely used as a solution to political problems. That counts for a lot in my book.
And as usual, people are exaggerating wildly. They haven't had everything in their culture and religion invalidated. That's just ridiculous.
No, but a large part of the dales is that they are who they are "All because of the big mean humans" for the most part. That part is invalidated, but a large part of who they are is also that the humans led to their downfall (somewhat) and that if they let them, they'd be just like the rest of the pathetic saps in the Alienages. That part is true, and is why they stay isolated. The only thing that's changed is that how they got there isn't all the human's fault. But why they're still there, that much is still on humans, even though the Dales do nothing to help fix this.
Which is why I dislike them. They remain bitter and all it's done is made sure they stay right where they are for generations and generations.
Well I agree. Especially not in the middle of the night and with armed Knights. But you said Elandrin converting was their problem, not the Orlesians', and they were trying to deal with this problem themselves. They just went about it in the worst possible way.
By that, I meant that they had no right to step on Orlesian land because of it. I didn't mean that they should have taken care of it themselves. Not like that, anyway.
This is just precious. A couple of pages ago you said it's a fair assumption to say the elves burned down Red Crossing despite the fact that codex entries only ever say "attack", but believing the Chantry, who is said to be angry at the elves not following the Maker in 100% objective material (The World of Thedas), and whose entire purpose in life is to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, tried to convert the Dales is totally outlandish. Right.
And I never said anything about Elandrin having been forcibly converted so not sure what you're getting at there.
they attacked it and then went on to attack cities past it and well into Orlais, destroying Red Crossing is a reasonable inference
I also didn't deny the possibility, I said there was no evidence
In 2:9 Glory the elves attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly took it over.[10] Orlais declared war, but the elves quickly managed to capture Montsimmard and besieged Val Royeaux. At this point, Divine Renata I called for an Exalted March against the attacking elves. Although the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory.
That is directly from WOT, vol 1, pg 72.
Alright, fair enough. According to WoT, once Red Crossing had occurred, the Dalish do seem to have pressed forward, captured Montsimmard, and were heading towards Val Royeaux before Devine Renata I called for the Exalted March. So I do agree that the elves pressed the war after Red Crossing.
Yep, and that part of the discussion should have ended right there, basically. And so a large part of why the Dalish are angry at humans certainly has lost some wind in its sails. Not completely. Germany had valid reasons to be angry after they first lost due to how they were treated.
Doesn't change the fact that the Dales brought it on themselves. And if they knew that all along, I seriously doubt they'd be as hostile to outsiders. Or at the very least, they wouldn't be nearly so self rightous.
Yes Orlais, aka the seat of the Andrastian Chantry.
“In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods.” Codex entry DAO, Sister Petrine version.
“The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars.” Codex entry DAO, Keeper Gisharel version.
“Relations with humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire.” The World of Thedas Vol.1, pg 28
“but one last challenge came from the elves, who would not submit to the Maker”
“Sister Amity led the march to the river Tenasir, where stood shrines to the elven gods. These she struck down; standing upon the banks, she sang the Chant of Light. Andraste's Word had come to the Dales, and delivered them from wickedness”. DAI Codex entry, Memorial to the Second Exalted March
So there was fighting along the borders and religious tension..
I mean, I'm not trying to say that what the Dalish did at Red Crossing was okay. I'm not saying that it was okay for them to start the war with Orlais. I do, however, still feel like that the Dalish were not solely responsible for the war occurring. The Dalish did not start the war for "no reason".
They are who they are because their credo is "we will never submit." That hasn't changed a bit, and it's an admirable trait. Why should they assimilate? They already trade with human settlements, and they've tried time and again to settle in certain places. Rivain is the only place where that has worked even partially- mostly because the Chantry has fed bigotry in Andrastian lands. It's a pretty sad commentary when the Qun ends up making people more tolerant.No, but a large part of the dales is that they are who they are "All because of the big mean humans" for the most part. That part is invalidated, but a large part of who they are is also that the humans led to their downfall (somewhat) and that if they let them, they'd be just like the rest of the pathetic saps in the Alienages. That part is true, and is why they stay isolated. The only thing that's changed is that how they got there isn't all the human's fault. But why they're still there, that much is still on humans, even though the Dales do nothing to help fix this.
Which is why I dislike them. They remain bitter and all it's done is made sure they stay right where they are for generations and generations.
. Rivain is the only place where that has worked even partially- mostly because the Chantry has fed bigotry in Andrastian lands. It's a pretty sad commentary when the Qun ends up making people more tolerant.The Dalish already knew that elves had participated in their own downfall- Sarel tells you that in Origins. People just weren't paying attention, apparently.
Rivain's nobility is Andrastian, and the Qunari were largely driven from it, only holding onto a few cities in the north
I haven't said Hi to you yet, Addai. Hello!
So there was fighting along the borders and religious tension..
I mean, I'm not trying to say that what the Dalish did at Red Crossing was okay. I'm not saying that it was okay for them to start the war with Orlais. I do, however, still feel like that the Dalish were not solely responsible for the war occurring. The Dalish did not start the war for "no reason".
Yes, to me it seems really obvious that Red Crossing is the start of the war, but not its cause. Like the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Rivain's nobility is Andrastian, and the Qunari were largely driven from it, only holding onto a few cities in the north
Technically the Qunari left Rivain voluntarily because the Chantry was killing too many people trying to force them out.
Yes, to me it seems really obvious that Red Crossing is the start of the war, but not its cause. Like the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Kind of in that it's not similar in anyway except someone died.
They are who they are because their credo is "we will never submit." That hasn't changed a bit, and it's an admirable trait. Why should they assimilate? They already trade with human settlements, and they've tried time and again to settle in certain places. Rivain is the only place where that has worked even partially- mostly because the Chantry has fed bigotry in Andrastian lands. It's a pretty sad commentary when the Qun ends up making people more tolerant.
The Dalish already knew that elves had participated in their own downfall- Sarel tells you that in Origins. People just weren't paying attention, apparently.
I knew about that actually, and for the most part the Dalish like to ignore this. Hence why you barely ever hear about it and why the game now makes a big deal out of it.
Their credo is more like "We'll never submit to the humans who did this to us". Now it's "We'll never submit. Or admit". Like I said, they're not wrong that the humans would likely dick them over, but that's largely because of the Dale's attitude in turn.
You can't just settle in places and be hostile to everyone around you. Just because you open some trade doesn't mean you can treat neighbors however you wish, hence why humans keep them moving.
Technically the Qunari left Rivain voluntarily because the Chantry was killing too many people trying to force them out.
they were still forced out, and regardless, the war was turning against them by that point anyways. They'd have lost it one way or another
I haven't said Hi to you yet, Addai. Hello!
Hullooo!The old gang is still here. 
Rivain's nobility is Andrastian, and the Qunari were largely driven from it, only holding onto a few cities in the north
Their culture was influenced by the Qun, there are quite a few converts, and the majority are not Andrastians. I'm talking about the kind of bigotry that leads to behavior such as Orlesian nobles hunting the Dalish for sport, as Morrigan mentions in this game.
Right. And the Dalish origin let's you kill humans for the horrible crime of being human.
Exactly.
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