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[TEWR]

Indeed, and that is the main reason why I keep morality and right and wrong out of it. Because from that standpoint, I understand why both acted the way that they did.

 

In fact, I couldn't even say I'd react differently. Why should I care about these ***** ass humans and their dick borders? They didn't give a **** about our space and our people before. Supposedly, going solely off of the word of the elves.

 

If true, then yea, I'd definitely say "**** these humans, we're getting our traitor and that's that."

 

But, it'd be my fault when we were killed. And it'd be my people's fault when we decided to push further in their territory.

 

Pretty much. The Elves have emotions just like everyone else and fall victim to them. It's in our nature. So I basically say that the entire incident was the result of everyone acting rashly, prematurely, and with far too much haste.

 

No one's hands are clean in this. It's not fair to pin all the blame on the Elves in this scenario, though it is fair to say the Elves were the ones who started the escalation of events. Or one could say the Chantry cover-up of Siona's sister's death was in and of itself an escalation, much like a cover-up of the Qunari deaths might be considered one. Personally I'd say the sister's death was the result of border skirmishes in a way (and the hunters should've been held accountable) but I'd say the Chantry cover-up was an escalation, trying to absolve the humans of any wrongdoing.

 

No doubt the Chantry in this scenario is just the local one, and combined with the border skirmishes it makes sense they wouldn't speak the truth on the matter. Tensions were high and as I said proper diplomatic protocol is hard as hell to observe during such things.

 

Funny then, for a culture that was so enamored with the idea of taking things slow like their ancestors, where debate would last for ten years or spells would take a long time to cast.

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't know. Is that to say that Tevinter in no way had ever provoked the war that Andraste and her followers waged against them, because she's the one who pressed first?

I'm not really saying that the humans didn't help create the bad relations that the elves and humans had, however. I'm merely saying that it was the elves that finally took it to head.

 

That said, Andraste pretty much did start that war, her reasoning basically being in retaliation for her slavery and the Tevinter's causing of the blights, which is ironic since they were already severely damaged by their own blunderings. In reality, she likely did it simply because she could and she had a cause that could make people follow her. Like the Dalish, they weakened themselves and the opportunity demanded to be taken advantage of.

 

She indeed started that war. Whether or not the tevinter provoked it, is sort of relative.

[TEWR]

 

 "The evil good that men elves do lives after them; the good evil is oft interred with their bones."

 

I mean Dalish do the exact same thing. Haven't seen you condemn that yet. Never see a Dalish supporter actually criticize their side's stupidity.

 

 

Maybe because they threatened to kill them? Was it right to judge the entire clan for that, nope. Too bad that same clan does the exact same thing regardless just a year later, threatening a human that comes near their camp.

 

 

I'm sorry, when did the Sabrae clan threaten a human after moving out of Ferelden? They never did.

 

Upon encountering Hawke, they just tell him to hold. No weapons drawn. Upon encountering a Templar (who admits to torturing a Dalish child for information on Feynriel) they don't try to cause a fight to break out, and if Hawke resolves the situation the lead hunter actually thanks Hawke, saying that a fight would've been bad for everyone.

[Colonelkillabee]

Why is it a bad comparison? It's the event that is generally said to have started the war, even if neither side was properly militarized yet.

It's a bad comparison because the only mage complacent in it was Anders. He forced this war on everyone. No one forced the Dales to act the way they did.

[phaonica]

But, it'd be my fault when we were killed. And it'd be my people's fault when we decided to push further in their territory.

 

I kind of agree with this. But is there no way that humans are partially responsible for this attitude of hostility?

[TEWR]

"Hey these guys are walking around, let's go kill them because they are humans and walking around"


Yeah the humans are totally in the wrong for wanting them gone

 

To be fair much of the actions driving humans is caused by a lot of propaganda spewed about the Dalish, where they're treated as heretical savages who sacrifice innocents on altars to their gods. That is going to cause people to react in harsher ways. The fact that Tamlen and Mahariel pointed weapons at them doesn't help, but the fact that Mahariel lets them go because it's the right thing to do is something they don't care about. It doesn't matter that one of the Dalish was reasonable, they need to be driven out of the forest.

 

It's also remarkably stupid to rouse a village against well armed forces when you were able to return safely to your people. As Marethari said, the Dalish could easily kill the villagers (though this would not be in their best interest). A peasant isn't going to stand much chance against a well armed and armored Dalish elf fighting in what is essentially their home turf (they know the forest).

 

Also to be fair, Tamlen's an idiot. Tamlen's the one who wanted to kill them. Whether Mahariel obliges or not is dependent on the player. Hell Tamlen didn't even care to find out why the humans were out in the woods IIRC.

[Colonelkillabee]

I kind of agree with this. But is there no way that humans are partially responsible for this attitude of hostility?

For the attitude, certainly.

 

But like we've said before, it's irrelevant to the actual start of the war. It's not like anyone can say the humans are to blame for the elves invasion for bad relations prior. It's not like the humans deserved that invasion. No one can say that with the info we have, because all we have prior to RC is "He said, she said," so all we can conclude is that both sides prior were dicks.

 

Now, people have of course started wars for less, but all we've seen here is that the elves encroached on human land, as humans have likely done in turn, killed a human, as humans have likely done in turn, then were killed in retaliation, as etc etc.

 

But what makes this different is that the Dales decided to up the ante. And that's where they done fucked up. They took it from little skirmishes, little trespasses here and there, and they forced the human's hand. That's where they porked the pooch.

[phaonica]

It's a bad comparison because the only mage complacent in it was Anders. He forced this war on everyone. No one forced the Dales to act the way they did.

 

The mages at Kirkwall admittedly were forced, but all the other mages in all the other Circles were not forced. They chose. They pressed the fight after the bombing in Kirkwall.

[Colonelkillabee]

The mages at Kirkwall admittedly were forced, but all the other mages in all the other Circles were not forced. They chose. They pressed the fight after the bombing in Kirkwall.

And the mages elsewhere had Fiona to blame.

 

But that still just goes to show the situation isn't the same, because Anders' actions were his own, and the mages at that time weren't acting together.

 

And it's because of Anders alone that mages felt threatened. All they saw was that mages were being treated as collectives when they weren't one. Blamed for actions taken by mages in general as if they were a hivemind, when they weren't one. They saw little choice but to become a collective to protect themselves, thanks to Anders. It wasn't forced on them directly, but indirectly.

 

I actually was on their side, up until they sided with Tevinter. I can sort of understand why, but Fiona was once again a dumb ass for believing that the Tevinter would show them mercy just because they were fellow mages. Morons.

[phaonica]

For the attitude, certainly.

 

But like we've said before, it's irrelevant to the actual start of the war. It's not like anyone can say the humans are to blame for the elves invasion for bad relations prior. It's not like the humans deserved that invasion. No one can say that with the info we have, because all we have prior to RC is "He said, she said," so all we can conclude is that both sides prior were dicks.

 

Now, people have of course started wars for less, but all we've seen here is that the elves encroached on human land, as humans have likely done in turn, killed a human, as humans have likely done in turn, then were killed in retaliation, as etc etc.

 

But what makes this different is that the Dales decided to up the ante. And that's where they done fucked up. They took it from little skirmishes, little trespasses here and there, and they forced the human's hand. That's where they porked the pooch.

 

Well, I agree. I never disagreed that the Dalish were the ones that escalated the conflict. I've only ever disagreed that the war occurred due to completely baseless hostility from the Dalish.

[TEWR]

Didn't Fiona say that what happened was that she took in any mages coming to seek asylum with her, believing the Templars would attack soon? And that by the time she realized Tevinter agents were among them, it was too late to do anything about it (not without a lot of bloodshed anyway)?

 

I'd hardly call that selling out to Tevinter and more like Tevinter pulled one over on Fiona. Though my memory's foggy so maybe I wasn't paying attention since I was so busy screencapping my suave Dwarven bastard. Still, if I am right you could say Fiona still should've suspected Tevinter would take advantage of the chaos to capitalize on it.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, I agree. I never disagreed that the Dalish were the ones that escalated the conflict. I've only ever disagreed that the war occurred due to completely baseless hostility from the Dalish.

That came a bit earlier in the discussion. Here, most of us discussing now are simply saying they caused the escalation.

 

The hostility has more to do with why they're still nomading it like a bunch of hobos, lol. Humans are of course equally cruel and harsh, and the Dalish trade, but that's mainly out of necessity that they trade. And they certainly don't help to ease relations with humans. Like politicians in my country who go in saying "**** these guys, I won't give an inch!" And the other side says the same in turn, and no one goes anywhere.

[Colonelkillabee]

Didn't Fiona say that what happened was that she took in any mages coming to seek asylum with her, believing the Templars would attack soon? And that by the time she realized Tevinter agents were among them, it was too late to do anything about it (not without a lot of bloodshed anyway)?

 

I'd hardly call that selling out to Tevinter and more like Tevinter pulled one over on Fiona. Though my memory's foggy so maybe I wasn't paying attention since I was so busy screencapping my suave Dwarven bastard. Still, if I am right you could say Fiona still should've suspected Tevinter would take advantage of the chaos to capitalize on it.

Maybe, I remember her making some bs excuse, but I hardly see how it was too late to separate her people afterwards. Bloodshed's better than selling your soul. She should have known that the Tevinter were up to no good, especially if they did resort to that.

 

She brought that on herself anyway by forcing the mage templar war in the first place.

[TEWR]

It's easy to say bloodshed's the better choice when you're not the one leading the group. To be put in the command of hundreds of people, with their lives in your hands, then the choice is harder.

 

Either way you're damned, though you could question why Fiona (someone who actually wanted to break away from an institution she found to be akin to slavery) would then do something like that when she felt IIRC it would be better to die free then to live a slave.

 

It's a bit of both, I suspect... maybe. hypocrisy and the chains of commanding.

 

With a dash of possible Bioware blegh writing. I enjoyed Alexius and the general plot, but I think Bioware tends to go for the simplest ways of getting to that set-up.

[phaonica]

And the mages elsewhere had Fiona to blame.

 

But that still just goes to show the situation isn't the same, because Anders' actions were his own, and the mages at that time weren't acting together.

 

And it's because of Anders alone that mages felt threatened. All they saw was that mages were being treated as collectives when they weren't one. Blamed for actions taken by mages in general as if they were a hivemind, when they weren't one. They saw little choice but to become a collective to protect themselves, thanks to Anders. It wasn't forced on them directly, but indirectly.

 

I actually was on their side, up until they sided with Tevinter. I can sort of understand why, but Fiona was once again a dumb ass for believing that the Tevinter would show them mercy just because they were fellow mages. Morons.

 

But you've been saying that the reasons don't matter. That ultimately, whomever is the first to strike a blow is in the wrong, regardless of the circumstances. Collectively, the bombing of the Chantry is considered to be the first blow, regardless of the fact that technically only Anders did that. Collectively, the attack on Red Crossing is considered the first blow, regardless of the fact that technically Siona alone started it.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's easy to say bloodshed's the better choice when you're not the one leading the group. To be put in the command of hundreds of people, with their lives in your hands, then the choice is harder.

Perhaps she shouldn't have been making these decisions for her people alone, then.

 

As for the Dales, it's like this. They as well as the humans have valid reasons to be stubborn towards each other. But if that's what the Dales choose to do, they shouldn't whine and ****** so much about it given that this is the choice they made.

[Evamitchelle]

Perhaps she shouldn't have been making these decisions for her people alone, then.

 

As for the Dales, it's like this. They as well as the humans have valid reasons to be stubborn towards each other. But if that's what the Dales choose to do, they shouldn't whine and ****** so much about it given that this is the choice they made.

 

She wasn't alone until the other leaders of the mage rebellion blew up at the Conclave.

[Colonelkillabee]

But you've been saying that the reasons don't matter. That ultimately, whomever is the first to strike a blow is in the wrong, regardless of the circumstances. Collectively, the bombing of the Chantry is considered to be the first blow, regardless of the fact that technically only Anders did that. Collectively, the attack on Red Crossing is considered the first blow, regardless of the fact that technically Siona alone started it.

No, I have not been talking about who was "in the wrong" at all. Only that what they did warrants a reaction, and you can't blame others for reacting the way they did.

 

And I've been talking about a collective vs a collective. People with actual governments. You may wish to prove my reasoning wrong by applying it to something else that isn't at all alike, but I won't let you because they aren't at all the same, as I've stated and as I've shown. The mages weren't a collective body during what's considered "The first strike". The Dales were. Case closed.

[Colonelkillabee]

She wasn't alone until the other leaders of the mage rebellion blew up at the Conclave.

She was when Tevinter got involved, right? If not, she and the rest sure were when they were dead, and she still chose to stay.

[Colonelkillabee]

Looked it up and the Wiki seems to suggest what I said, which is she alone traded her people to the Tevinters:

 

When the Divine managed to convince both mages and templars to convene for peace talks at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, Fiona sends intermediaries in her place, suspecting a trap. After the explosion that created the Breach killed all the dignitaries of the Chantry's peace conclave, the Mage-Templar War resumed and rebel mages were once again subject to the templars' brutality. Fiona led her followers to Ferelden were they were granted refuge in Redcliffe.

The Inquisitor encounters Fiona in Val Royeaux, following a debacle involving the Chantry's denouncement of their title as the Herald of Andraste and the templars' refusal to return to the Chantry. Fiona asks that the Inquisitor go to Redcliffe to discuss a possible alliance.

Should the Inquisitor choose to meet with Fiona, strangely, she claims to not have met them, hinting the person they met was an impostor. She then reveals that she feared her peoples' annihilation and had relinquished her role as Grand Enchanter after trading the rebel mages' services to the Tevinter Imperium in desperation. A magister named Gereon Alexius is the rebel mages' handler, as the rebel mages are considered indentured since they require ten years of service to be considered an Imperial citizen.

[TEWR]

She was when Tevinter got involved, right? If not, she and the rest sure were when they were dead, and she still chose to stay.

 

There is grounds to suspect blood magic may have also been involved in the decision to sell everyone into Tevinter slavery. Avernus showed us that it doesn't have to be overt. A simple nudge is all that's needed. The person making the call would simply believe it was their own choice. And considering Alexius is allying with a Tevinter supremacist cult, who's to say he hasn't done blood magic as well?

 

However, according to the wiki (whom I'll verify on my Dalish run) Alexius used his powers over time to conscript the Mages before the Inquisition could even get there.

[Evamitchelle]

Looked it up and the Wiki seems to suggest what I said, which is she alone traded her people to the Tevinters:

 

When the Divine managed to convince both mages and templars to convene for peace talks at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, Fiona sends intermediaries in her place, suspecting a trap. After the explosion that created the Breach killed all the dignitaries of the Chantry's peace conclave, the Mage-Templar War resumed and rebel mages were once again subject to the templars' brutality. Fiona led her followers to Ferelden were they were granted refuge in Redcliffe.

The Inquisitor encounters Fiona in Val Royeaux, following a debacle involving the Chantry's denouncement of their title as the Herald of Andraste and the templars' refusal to return to the Chantry. Fiona asks that the Inquisitor go to Redcliffe to discuss a possible alliance.

Should the Inquisitor choose to meet with Fiona, strangely, she claims to not have met them, hinting the person they met was an impostor. She then reveals that she feared her peoples' annihilation and had relinquished her role as Grand Enchanter after trading the rebel mages' services to the Tevinter Imperium in desperation. A magister named Gereon Alexius is the rebel mages' handler, as the rebel mages are considered indentured since they require ten years of service to be considered an Imperial citizen.

 

Yes that's not in doubt. She was alone at the time because the other leaders had just gotten killed, or had simply left (like Rhys). She didn't set up to be the sole person in charge of hundreds of refugee mages, but that's what she ended up becoming because the other leaders all died unexpectedly.

 

Also that summary is a bit lacking. The Fiona in Val Royeaux was not an impostor. Alexius had Tevinter agents spread rumors that the templars were coming to kill them right now and did his time-magic mojo to get to Redcliffe before Fiona went to Val Royeaux and ask the Inquisitor for a meeting. 

[Colonelkillabee]

There is grounds to suspect blood magic may have also been involved in the decision to sell everyone into Tevinter slavery. Avernus showed us that it doesn't have to be overt. A simple nudge is all that's needed. The person making the call would simply believe it was their own choice. And considering Alexius is allying with a Tevinter supremacist cult, who's to say he hasn't done blood magic as well?

 

However, according to the wiki (whom I'll verify on my Dalish run) Alexius used his powers over time to conscript the Mages before the Inquisition could even get there.

I wouldn't doubt it. She seemed very out of it when you met her again. I thought she was being controlled myself, but it's guesswork. We won't know till later.

 

At the end of the day, she forced the war on her people, just as Anders did. She's got no sympathy from me, and the mages didn't bring this on themselves. But if I were to give in to the morality talk and who was right or wrong, the people to blame would be Fiona and the templars/chantry. The templars for being so stupid and indiscriminate with their reactions, and Fiona for taking advantage of that, knowing how they'd react.

[Evamitchelle]

I wouldn't doubt it. She seemed very out of it when you met her again. I thought she was being controlled myself, but it's guesswork. We won't know till later.

 

At the end of the day, she forced the war on her people, just as Anders did. She's got no sympathy from me, and the mages didn't bring this on themselves. But if I were to give in to the morality talk and who was right or wrong, the people to blame would be Fiona and the templars/chantry. The templars for being so stupid and indiscriminate with their reactions, and Fiona for taking advantage of that, knowing how they'd react.

 

She called for the vote. The mages voted to fight. How is that her fault ?

[Colonelkillabee]

Yes that's not in doubt. She was alone at the time because the other leaders had just gotten killed, or had simply left (like Rhys). She didn't set up to be the sole person in charge of hundreds of refugee mages, but that's what she ended up becoming because the other leaders all died unexpectedly.

 

Also that summary is a bit lacking. The Fiona in Val Royeaux was not an impostor. Alexius had Tevinter agents spread rumors that the templars were coming to kill them right now and did his time-magic mojo to get to Redcliffe before Fiona went to Val Royeaux and ask the Inquisitor for a meeting. 

Yea I know, the wiki generally falls flat on detail, but the point I was referring to is all I sourced it for. Like I said though, she lead to all of that by forcing the war in the first place. Tevinter involvement or not, there was never any hope of the mages actually winning. What did she expect.