891 réponses à ce sujet

[Chashan]

The only thing stupid here is your grasp of the timeline... Orlais and the Dales were NOT yet enemies at the time of the Second Blight.

 

One thing to point out though would be that granting the Dales to the elvhen, as done by Andraste's descendants, to live and worship how they pleased runs counter to the Chant's self-imposed mission to spread its faith across Thedas.

 

Wouldn't be surprising if the clergy and some savvy Andrastian statesmen were grumbling about that state of affairs fairly early on.

 

That aside, Drakon during the 2nd Blight at that point in time, the burning of Montsimmard, seemed to be in a strong position despite the gravity of the situation. Noting that he pointedly did not ask the Dales for assistance may be seen as significant here as well, as his conduct during the Blight did immeasurably further his renown and prestige, which would have been lessened by requesting assistance of a non-human people. Further, it's not unknown for nations in our world to stand aside while an existential threat to one of its neighbours is on the loose. After all, waging war does come with significant costs.

 

The Dales may also have interpreted the gift of their land to mean that it would be best to stay out of human affairs - which the 2nd Blight was, for the most part - and to stick to their own. As is, we don't know whether there were any troubles within the Dales at the time that further discouraged action, nor of merely a strict adherence to a policy of isolation, which the gift by Andraste's immediate descendants promoted after all.

 

Could the Dales have intervened? Perhaps. Would they have done so without imposing certain conditions and demands on the yet-to-be cemented* Orlais? Doubtful, and it very well could have done little to improve relations between the two nations, maybe even made them worse.

 

*Edit here; yes, Orlais was a thing, my bad for not checking closely enough, but Drakon had yet to fully establish his dynasty, which would have been greatly heightened by investing himself in the life-and-death struggle against the Blight on Orlesian soil without his non-human neighbour's help.

[Steelcan]

The blights are not national affairs, even the fifth Blight required people from all over Thedas to help end.

 

The blights aren't the sole concern of humans, darkspawn don't leave the other races alone when murdering and rampaging.

[EmperorSahlertz]

One thing to point out though would be that granting the Dales to the elvhen, as done by Andraste's descendants, to live and worship how they pleased runs counter to the Chant's self-imposed mission to spread its faith across Thedas.

 

Wouldn't be surprising if the clergy and some savvy Andrastian statesmen were grumbling about that state of affairs fairly early on.

 

That aside, Drakon during the 2nd Blight at that point in time, the burning of Montsimmard, seemed to be in a strong position despite the gravity of the situation. Noting that he pointedly did not ask the Dales for assistance may be seen as significant here as well, as his conduct during the Blight did immeasurably further his renown and prestige, which would have been lessened by requesting assistance of a non-human people. Further, it's not unknown for nations in our world to stand aside while an existential threat to one of its neighbours is on the loose. After all, waging war does come with significant costs.

 

The Dales may also have interpreted the gift of their land to mean that it would be best to stay out of human affairs - which the 2nd Blight was, for the most part - and to stick to their own. As is, we don't know whether there were any troubles within the Dales at the time that further discouraged action, nor of merely a strict adherence to a policy of isolation, which the gift by Andraste's immediate descendants promoted after all.

 

Could the Dales have intervened? Perhaps. Would they have done so without imposing certain conditions and demands on the yet-to-be founded Orlais? Doubtful, and it very well could have done little to improve relations between the two nations, maybe even made them worse.

Blights are decidedly NOT "human affairs". But if the Elves really are stupid enough to think they can stand alone against the Darkspawn, then it is even better that the Dales got eradicated, since the world can only handle so much stupid.

 

Furthermore Drakon was busy fighting in the north and west, and was not in Orlais at the time of Montsimmard being attacked by the Darkspawn. He was, as a matter of fact, busy saving the Anderfels from the Darkspawn, who had not asked for help either (to our knowledge). Nor do we even know wether or not Orlais, or even just Montsimmard, had asked or signaled for help, chances are that they did, since the Second Blight threatened the entire world. What we DO know is that the Dalish marched an entire army, equiped and ready, to the doorstep of the besieged Montsimmard, and emrely watched it almost fall to the Darkspawn.

 

It isn't a question of wether or not they could, since they clearly could. It is a question of why they didn't. But that question is ultimately pointless, since only the fact that they didn't matters to the Orlesians. The army was there, help could have arrived within hours, yet they didn't. THAT is what matters.

 

Oh, and Orlais had been a nation of its own for 25 years at that time.

[Chashan]

The blights are not national affairs, even the fifth Blight required people from all over Thedas to help end.

 

The blights aren't the sole concern of humans, darkspawn don't leave the other races alone when murdering and rampaging.

 

And nations don't render assistance against the Blight out of the mere goodness of their hearts, as we can see in Thedas itself. Nevarra had that exact experience with Orlais, as Ferelden would have had during the 5th if we consider the correspondence between the Empress and King Cailan.

 

[...]

 

It isn't a question of wether or not they could, since they clearly could. It is a question of why they didn't. But that question is ultimately pointless, since only the fact that they didn't matters to the Orlesians. The army was there, help could have arrived within hours, yet they didn't. THAT is what matters.

 

Oh, and Orlais had been a nation of its own for 25 years at that time.

 

Edited accordingly, again, my bad.

 

Even so, I merely tried to point out that attitudes of backstabbing and under-handed means or, in fact, watching one's direct neighbours get pummeled are hardly a thing exclusive to any one race in DA's setting, not the elvhen, not the humans.

 

I am not terribly invested in painting either the Dales or Orlais, if not Andrastian humanity as a whole as the evil-doers in this, in fact I fully subscribe to the notion raised before that as regards struggles between peoples, there is no clear blameless victim far, far more often than not. Yet, despite this, I'd like to observe that no nation in the setting has a monopoly on 'so much stupid' as you term it. Whether that description can still be used when considering further context and accepting that Thedosian politics do, in fact, not bother too much with morality, is another question.

[phaonica]

Innocent question. Please don't be mad. I don't know the lore as well as you all, so I'm curious. Are there not any conflicts between the humans and Dalish that seem to be sourced in human aggression?

[EmperorSahlertz]

And nations don't render assistance against the Blight out of the mere goodness of their hearts, as we can see in Thedas itself. Nevarra had that exact experience with Orlais, as Ferelden would have had during the 5th if we consider the correspondence between the Empress and King Cailan.

 

 

Edited accordingly, again, my bad.

 

Even so, I merely tried to point out that attitudes of backstabbing and under-handed means or, in fact, watching one's direct neighbours get pummeled are hardly a thing exclusive to any one race in DA's setting, not the elvhen, not the humans.

 

I am not terribly invested in painting either the Dales or Orlais, if not Andrastian humanity as a whole as the evil-doers in this, in fact I fully subscribe to the notion raised before that as regards struggles between peoples, there is no clear blameless victim far, far more often than not. Yet, despite this, I'd like to observe that no nation in the setting has a monopoly on 'so much stupid' as you term it. Whether that description can still be used when considering further context and accepting that Thedosian politics do, in fact, not bother too much with morality, is another question.

I'm not talking about good or evil. I am talking about how the animosity between the Dales and Orlais started. And it all originated with the Elves emrely standing back and watching the Darkspawn pillage Montsimmard. That is the point of origin for the conflict. We can then point to the event that started the war, which was Red Crossing. Not once did I talk about what was right or wrong between the Dales and Orlais.

 

Also, to my knowledge, only the Dales and Tevinter have ever sat back and watched in inaction as Darkspawn have attacked other nations (although when Tevitner did it, they still fought the Darkspawn within their own country, they just refused to aid the rest of Thedas, because the rest of Thedas had just waged decades of war on Tevinter). Otherwise every nation has always participated in the Blights.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Innocent question. Please don't be mad. I don't know the lore as well as you all, so I'm curious. Are there not any conflicts between the humans and Dalish that seem to be sourced in human aggression?

If you are talking about modern Dalish, then most humans are usually of a disapproving to outright hostile mindset towards them. Dalish are usually chased off within a few weeks if they make camp too close to a human settlement. So humans are usually depicted as an adversary of the Dalish, and with good reason.

[Chashan]

I'm not talking about good or evil. I am talking about how the animosity between the Dales and Orlais started. And it all originated with the Elves emrely standing back and watching the Darkspawn pillage Montsimmard. That is the point of origin for the conflict. We can then point to the event that started the war, which was Red Crossing. Not once did I talk about what was right or wrong between the Dales and Orlais.

 

Also, to my knowledge, only the Dales and Tevinter have ever sat back and watched in inaction as Darkspawn have attacked other nations (although when Tevitner did it, they still fought the Darkspawn within their own country, they just refused to aid the rest of Thedas, because the rest of Thedas had just waged decades of war on Tevinter). Otherwise every nation has always participated in the Blights.

 

Not unconditionally, with interests of their own in mind to be pursued as they engaged the Blight or in its aftermath, however, as I have shown. And the question of 'right or wrong' was rather heavily implied by your statement that 'it is even better that the Dales got eradicated' for their inaction.

 

And when you point out that Tevinter had clear cause to not aid its neighbours, then, likewise, you can point out that the Dales' key reason to not interfere at Montsimmard may well have been that they considered it one step too far when it came to their policy of isolation. A policy dating back to the foundation of the Dales, upon which those who granted these lands to the elvhen, the descendants of noone less than the prophetess Andraste, agreed as well - you elvhen stick to your business within your lands, in return we leave you alone. It may well be that the Dales, at the last minute, weren't at all certain what the further implications of breaking this policy of isolation would be, whether the human nations would construe the Dalish presence outside of its borders as annuling that founding contract.

 

There is that, for one. Further, it is hardly unknown for a nation that is bordering on an area of conflict to ramp up its military presence on the border closest to it, even if it has no desire to intervene there itself. We were on holiday in south-eastern Turkey this summer, which makes a point of not entering the civil war beyond its southern border - as of yet, anyway -, yet has its troops on stand-by as you might have seen on the news (despite this, travelling there as we did was quite seamless just mere miles north of said border).

It therefore only makes sense that the Dales would mobilize in case the darkspawn went their way. Ultimately, the darkspawn may not have done so, yet I think we can also question just how literal the description of them being close enough to 'watch on' can be taken.

 

PS: Is there a more detailed account of the siege of Montsimmard during the 2nd Blight around, anyway? The wiki isn't terribly clear whether the besieging darkspawn were eventually driven out or exterminated, or moved on from there (may have been discouraged to go into the Dales due to the Dalish army staring them down, spent as they may have been after the siege).

[myahele]

I wonder if the Dales started out as Andrastians since Shartan was but once he died/after many generations elves started forming their own culture and religion? Just like how Hessarian-era Tevinter was up until he died and it was back to status quo within a generation or so

[Chashan]

I wonder if the Dales started out as Andrastians since Shartan was but once he died/after many generations elves started forming their own culture and religion? Just like how Hessarian-era Tevinter was up until he died and it was back to status quo within a generation or so

 

Going by DA:O's gauntlet's Shartan-apparition, no, Shartan worshipped the elvhen pantheon.

 

(terrible FPS, I know, but the sound is clear)

[Steelcan]

Going by DA:O's gauntlet's Shartan-apparition, no, Shartan worshipped the elvhen pantheon.
 
(terrible FPS, I know, but the sound is clear)

. Shartan converted to worship of the Maker at some point

[Steelcan]

I wonder if the Dales started out as Andrastians since Shartan was but once he died/after many generations elves started forming their own culture and religion? Just like how Hessarian-era Tevinter was up until he died and it was back to status quo within a generation or so

. Not really, Tevinter went Andrastian and had a round of severely bloody internal conflicts between Andrastians and Old Gods worshippers, with Andrastians winning in the end. Their variant is just a tad different than the kind practiced in White Thedas

[Chashan]

. Shartan converted to worship of the Maker at some point

 

Any clear source of this?

 

As for the recording, he clearly speaks of 'the people' and that he wishes for them to be independent in their new home, and of Andraste as the 'enemy of my enemy' - hardly endearing term, that, if he truly did convert.

[herkles]

I wonder how did the Dalish in the Dales worship the elven gods?

[garrusfan1]

this game has been very unkind to dalish. They leave their kids (who are mages) out to die if there are already two mages. They are responsible for that war. We find out that they destroyed themselves. Poor dalish

[Steelcan]

Any clear source of this?
 
As for the recording, he clearly speaks of 'the people' and that he wishes for them to be independent in their new home, and of Andraste as the 'enemy of my enemy' - hardly endearing term, that, if he truly did convert.

. Yes, thecodex entry on the Dales says that the elves went back to worshipping their older pantheon, but the ones who were initially gifted the land were Andrastian

[MisterJB]

Any clear source of this?

 

As for the recording, he clearly speaks of 'the people' and that he wishes for them to be independent in their new home, and of Andraste as the 'enemy of my enemy' - hardly endearing term, that, if he truly did convert.

 

Actually, yes. Page 43 of "The World of Thedas" clearly states Shartan converted and became a disciple and then remarks upon the irony of his Verses having been removed from the Chant.
 

[Steelcan]

Ah there's an even better source... Should look into getting World of Thedas

[herkles]

Ah there's an even better source... Should look into getting World of Thedas

volume 2 of world of thedas is said to revel a lot of new lore info about the world. Though volume 1 is still good too:D

[myahele]

Ah, it makes sense that the early settlers of the Dales were atleast Andrastians,if not by name only.

With self imposed isolationism they became more focused on their gods. Anyone have Shartans verse to see what he says?

[LobselVith8]

I wonder how did the Dalish in the Dales worship the elven gods?

The elves retained some knowledge about Arlathan, even after their slavery; they used some of this knowledge to help create the original Joining. It's not surprising that the elves kept to the faith of the Creators when they founded the Dales.

[Steelcan]

The elves retained some knowledge about Arlathan, even after their slavery; they used some of this knowledge to help create the original Joining. It's not surprising that the elves kept to the faith of the Creators when they founded the Dales.

but they didn't, thecode x entry on the Dales implies the founders were Andrastian, we know Shartan was so its reasonable that others were

[TEWR]

Shartan never saw the Dales though, and he never really talks of being an Andrastian (or is this mentioned elsewhere?). A follower of Andraste in her war against the Imperium doesn't necessarily mean said person is a religious follower. After all, Shartan's spirit said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Elves took advantage and rose up against Tevinter and allied with Andraste.

 

EDIT: never mind. MisterJB mentioned it. Something to consider, at any rate. Though one should question how much of it is truth. Who wrote that entry (as DA WoT codexes are written by in-game people)? Would people admit that Shartan was a follower of a different religion when he allied with Andraste? Or would they rewrite history?

[LobselVith8]

Shartan never saw the Dales though, and he never really talks of being an Andrastian (or is this mentioned elsewhere?). A follower of Andraste in her war against the Imperium doesn't necessarily mean said person is a religious follower. After all, Shartan's spirit said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Elves took advantage and rose up against Tevinter and allied with Andraste.

It's mentioned that Shartan became a disciple of Andraste, but we don't know if he genuinely believed in the Maker, or if it was done out of necessity to solidify an alliance. He's the only elf at the time (from the historical accounts) who was said to follow the Andrastian faith.

[TheLastArchivist]

People are quoting the Codexes as thought they were the Holy Bible... 

How far we've come.

 

*chews halla meat*