893 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

The whole war was one long series of escalation. The elves killed one human, the humans killed an elf. The elves sacked a town, the humans no doubt sacked another town. The fights kept getting bigger and more violent until the Elves were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux and all Thedas rose up to put them down.

 

There is blame to be placed on both sides. It seems a little pointless to try and argue that your preferred faction wasn't really 50% at fault, it was more like 48.5%. We should all just accept the lessons of history and endeavor not to repeat those mistakes in the future.

[Steelcan]

That probably happened as a tension-raising incident before the scroll.

 

In any case, the Orlesians' fault was in the genocide.

as I recall the elves were given a chance to surrender, many did and joined alienages, but a few stubborn fools preferred death and glory.  The Orlesians were just obliging them

[Hellion Rex]

*would personally like to raze all of the Andrastian monuments in the Dales, but alas possesses no option to :<*

Not helping your case, dear.

[Xilizhra]

as I recall the elves were given a chance to surrender, many did and joined alienages, but a few stubborn fools preferred death and glory.  The Orlesians were just obliging them

And thus wiping out their culture if they did surrender.

 

 

Not helping your case, dear.

I'm not your dear, pal.

(This is a meme, not actual hostility.)

[raging_monkey]

Ah, the horrors of kicking rocks over?

sometimes its face palm worthy my friend. Im no big fan of temps, chantry,or circles but genociding x group for past crime(arguably the same crime ironically) weakens your bygone be bygone statement

[SgtSteel91]

Not what I meant, for the longest time the pro-Dalish response to "elves started the war" was "no, the humans did by sending in templars after the missionaries to convert elves"

 

so where is the bloody proof?

 

If there is none we can safely assume it was a fabrication by the elves to justify their aggression, thus removing blame from the Orlesians, therefore making the conflict not the fault of both sides

 

OP says that skirmishes were being fought along the border for some time before the Red Crossing incident. Both sides were aggravating each other until one side blinked and both escalated into full-blown war.

[Xilizhra]

sometimes its face palm worthy my friend. Im no big fan of temps, chantry,or circles but genociding x group for past crime(arguably the same crime ironically) weakens your bygone be bygone statement

Um, I wasn't talking about genociding anybody.

[Steelcan]

And thus wiping out their culture if they did surrender.

 

As far as we know the only compulsion was conversion to Andrastianism, hardly cultural destruction, the rest followed after the alienages were established, it's natural cultural change

 

Can't change that the war happened and that the elves lost, the rest was the inevitable result of being conquered.

 

If the elves really wanted to they would have held onto their culture like some other conquered peoples

[Xilizhra]

As far as we know the only compulsion was conversion to Andrastianism, hardly cultural destruction, the rest followed after the alienages were established, it's natural cultural change

Religious genocide. It still counts.

 

 

If the elves really wanted to they would have held onto their culture like some other conquered peoples

And they did, and you hate them for it.

[LobselVith8]

 You would have a point if the only person to die was th Sister, I could probably accept that as an accident due to one stupid fool. But to butcher an entire town, to cover it up at that, on soveign foreign soil? And no, the Exalted march was only enacted after the Elves had in fact pushed into Orlais and was burning cities and were at the door of the Capital.

 

So you're condemning an entire kingdom of men, women, and children because of the actions of a handful of people? I'm just trying to make sure that I understand your argument here, because it seems like you're taking an entire ethnic group to task because of what was done by certain individuals.

 

And if you read all the codexes while in the Exalted Plains it is made clear that one of the genreals had in fact offered them an oppurtinity to lay down arms without bloodshed. They filled him with arrows, so any deaths after that point is at their feet as well.

 

I read the codex entries, like the one about the human who joined the Exalted March of the Dales to kill elves, and was honored by the Chantry for killing so many elves. In fact, it's mentioned he joined the war simply because he wanted to kill elves. It's also an example that the claim that only Orlesians participated in the Exalted March against the Dales was less than honest.

 

Read again, I said less than friendly, I never pretended otherwise. But if you can't see the difference between a border skirmish with the cold blooded butchering of an entire town, well....whatever then. 

 

Considering it was bad enough to prevent an invasion of the north by Emperor Drakon, I'd say things were certainly bad.

 

These mean nothing, as Orlais has no way of knowing this was supposedly an "accident", all they know is the elves came over to their side of the border and KILLED AN ENTIRE TOWN IN COLD BLOOD.

Stop trying to dogde the point.

 

While we know there are previous skirmishes between humans and elves, and humans who invaded the sovereign territory of the Dales. I'm also not inclined not blame an entire ethnic group of people for the actions of a few people.

[Steelcan]

OP says that skirmishes were being fought along the border for some time before the Red Crossing incident. Both sides were aggravating each other until one side blinked and both escalated into full-blown war.

yeah but there's no evidence for chantry forces being sent into the Dales to convert, no evidence of templars killing mages

[Palidane]

I will say, I'm glad the situation turned out to be more grey than the elves tell it. I got nothing against the Dalish, but I had to roll my eyes when they told me the story of the Fall of the Dales back in DAO. It was just such a one-sided narrative, I knew it couldn't actually be that black and white.

 

To their credit, the one Dalish clan we meet in Inquisition did acknowledge that both sides shared blame, and even offered an olive branch to the humans. Hopefully, the other clans will react with such objectivity.

[Steelcan]

Religious genocide. It still counts.

 

 

And they did, and you hate them for it.

Culture is more than religion

 

yes, they espouse their beliefs with the ultimate intent of driving humanity from Thedas and restoring their "glory days".  Dalish culture is incompatible with all other ones and so they must be opposed.  Of course at this point we can probably just sit back and let them dwindle off into nothing

[SgtSteel91]

yeah but there's no evidence for chantry forces being sent into the Dales to convert, no evidence of templars killing mages

 

Maybe there were no Templars or forced conversions but tensions were still high, regardless. Orlais could have easily left the Dales alone just as much as the Dales could have pulled that stick out of their butts.

[Steelcan]

Maybe there were no Templars or forced conversions but tensions were still high, regardless. Orlais could have easily left the Dales alone just as much as the Dales could have pulled that stick out of their butts.

agreed, but the Dalish ended up sacking a town and there's kinda no going back from that

[LobselVith8]

Religious genocide. It still counts.

 

Well, sending armed and armored religious soldiers when the elves refuse to convert to the Andrastian faith (and kicked out their missionaries to boot) wasn't likely to end well. You can just imagine how it would go for templars who believed they have "dominion over mages by divine right" to encounter mages who were free, and followed a different religious faith.

 

And they did, and you hate them for it.

 

It's odd when you consider that you can use their line of arguments to justify Anders' actions against the Kirkwall Chantry, and the mages fighting against the templars.

[Br3admax]

We're all still waiting for you to tell us what the humans actually did wrong, Lob. 

[Palidane]

Well, sending armed and armored religious soldiers when the elves refuse to convert to the Andrastian faith (and kicked out their missionaries to boot) wasn't likely to end well. You can just imagine how it would go for templars who believed they have "dominion over mages by divine right" to encounter mages who were free, and followed a different religious faith.

I didn't comb through each and every codex found in the Graves, so do we have more proof of this? Or is this just from that one codex entry variant the Dalish get in DAO?

 

Not that I doubt it, all things considerd, I just want to know if new evidence has surfaced.

[ArvinDulku]

So you're condemning an entire kingdom of men, women, and children because of the actions of a handful of people? I'm just trying to make sure that I understand your argument here, because it seems like you're taking an entire ethnic group to task because of what was done by certain individuals.

 

 

I read the codex entries, like the one about the human who joined the Exalted March of the Dales to kill elves, and was honored by the Chantry for killing so many elves. In fact, it's mentioned he joined the war simply because he wanted to kill elves. It's also an example that the claim that only Orlesians participated in the Exalted March against the Dales was less than honest.

 

 

Considering it was bad enough to prevent an invasion of the north by Emperor Drakon, I'd say things were certainly bad.

 

 

While we know there are previous skirmishes between humans and elves, and humans who invaded the sovereign territory of the Dales. I'm also not inclined not blame an entire ethnic group of people for the actions of a few people.

 

....oh bloody hell.

 

What I have been stating is that if you cross into another nations border, soverign soil, and proceed to butcher an entire town in cold blooded savagery cause you're anti interacial marriage (before you start, these wer Emerald Knight, soldiers of the Dales, thus the sword arm of Elven rule), said nation has every right to consider it an uprovoked act of war and come over to kick your ass in.

 

If that is still not clear, well..well I dunno what else to say.

[Steelcan]

Well, sending armed and armored religious soldiers when the elves refuse to convert to the Andrastian faith (and kicked out their missionaries to boot) wasn't likely to end well. You can just imagine how it would go for templars who believed they have "dominion over mages by divine right" to encounter mages who were free, and followed a different religious faith.

give me a gorram source for this

 

oh wait

 

it doesn't exist outside the Dalish's self delusions

[Augustei]

The whole war was one long series of escalation. The elves killed one human, the humans killed an elf. The elves sacked a town, the humans no doubt sacked another town. The fights kept getting bigger and more violent until the Elves were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux and all Thedas rose up to put them down.

Nah only Orlais, no other nations participated

[raging_monkey]

Um, I wasn't talking about genociding anybody.

you burn down the andrastian statues in the dales? Its a soft cide and brews hostility but im not your jimny cricket, just a wiseass mage

[LobselVith8]

I didn't comb through each and every codex found in the Graves, so do we have more proof of this? Or is this just from that one codex entry variant the Dalish get in DAO?

 

Not that I doubt it, all things considerd, I just want to know if new evidence has surfaced.

 

It's not tied to the Dalish, since it's mentioned the Chantry honored this person, and the elves of Halamshiral consider their name a curse.

[ArvinDulku]

give me a gorram source for this

 

oh wait

 

it doesn't exist outside the Dalish's self delusions

 

I wouldn't bother.

 

He knows there isn't a single legitimate source for it, but he'll continue to dodge it.

[Palidane]

It's not tied to the Dalish, since it's mentioned the Chantry honored this person, and the elves of Halamshiral consider their name a curse.

Sorry, I meant the Templars being sent in to the Dales before everything went to hell. I recalled you mentioning that in our previous debates, and I didn't know if it has been confirmed by DAI.