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[Bowie Hawkins]

 ...Ok, you have to be messing with me. How does that prove anything? The point of me requesting proof is for you to provide evidence that said narrator has factual backing to justify his assertion that said elf was murdered by humans in cold blood beyond his own biased suspicions.

 

1. Humans and elves had been having border skirmishes for so long that nobody could remember exactly how long ago it started. Established fact.

2. Rumors of an abduction were being spread. Also established fact.

3. The source the writer has for the humans murdering the Elf was Eladrin, who recovered her body afterwards: "they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path. You carried her body back to us, you mourned with us".

 

So although it's been said many times, many ways, the proof you keep asking for has already been provided in this thread many times over.

[ArvinDulku]

1. Humans and elves had been having border skirmishes for so long that nobody could remember exactly how long ago it started. Established fact.

 

- Proves nothing in regards to the curent line of discussion, like at all.

 

2. Rumors of an abduction were being spread. Also established fact.

 

- Proves nothing in regards to the curent line of discussion, like at all. Again.

 

3. The source the writer has for the humans murdering the Elf was Eladrin, who recovered her body afterwards: "they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path. You carried her body back to us, you mourned with us".

 

- Citation where Eladrin tells them point blank that humans killed her? Oh wait, there simply isn't any. Really, are you even trying here?

 

So although it's been said many times, many ways, the proof you keep asking for has already been provided in this thread many times over.

 

- Never provided once yet oft repeated as fact instead you mean.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

I figured people would try to find someway for the elves to weasel out of this.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Arvin, if you want to claim that nothing that I quoted proved anything, that means every one of your claims about the Red Crossing incident is likewise completely unproven. You don't get to have it both ways, no matter how badly you want to.

[ArvinDulku]

Arvin, if you want to claim that nothing that I quoted proved anything, that means every one of your claims about the Red Crossing incident is likewise completely unproven. You don't get to have it both ways, no matter how badly you want to.

 

I don't have to, because the portion I am refering to are eyewitness accounts, by a perpetrator of the attack itself, so yeah.

 

You want to pretend the parts based on biased suspicion are facts, when there is nothing in world or the codex itself to support said assertion.

 

So yeah, I can in fact have my cake and eat it too.

[MisterJB]

Shartan never saw the Dales though, and he never really talks of being an Andrastian (or is this mentioned elsewhere?). A follower of Andraste in her war against the Imperium doesn't necessarily mean said person is a religious follower. After all, Shartan's spirit said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Elves took advantage and rose up against Tevinter and allied with Andraste.

EDIT: never mind. MisterJB mentioned it. Something to consider, at any rate. Though one should question how much of it is truth. Who wrote that entry (as DA WoT codexes are written by in-game people)? Would people admit that Shartan was a follower of a different religion when he allied with Andraste? Or would they rewrite history?

It's not a codex entry but rather one of the important events the out of character timeline you can find in most pages of the boom remarks upon.
Whether he converted out of expediency is another matter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Your inability to make an argument that can hold up to scrutiny is nobody's fault but your own, nor is your decision to resort to ad hominem attacks after repeatedly failing in all your attempts to do so. 

 

The codex which was quoted in this thread several times shows that the humans were spreading lies about the Elves, and that those lies were the reason why Siona's sister was murdered by humans, and that the actions Siona took afterward were the direct result of her sister's murder by the humans because of those lies. 

 

In response, you kept claiming that the Elves massacred the entire settlement, and when asked for proof to back it up, you referred back to that same codex entry despite it not having anything at all that you could quote to back up your claims. So now that you've proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that you're not going to listen to anything that contradicts you, and are therefore not worth any more of my time, welcome to the ignore list.

The onlt person here who repeatedly fail at backing up their claims, is you. You have yet to provide a single smidgen of evidence that even remotely back up your claims. All you say is: "Well humans also did some bad stuff".... Well... Yes... We know that... They didn't however kill an entire town of Elves just to cover up their own crimes. And Red Corssing is what is being discussed here, and NOTHING the humans did justify what the Elves did to Red Crossing.

No one is denying that humans also were to blame for the tensions between Orlais and the Dales. But only the Elves attacked Red Crossing and massacered the civilians there. The Elves are entirely to blame for that act. Ther eis nothign to discuss on the matter, and your pathetic attempts to whitewash a massacre of a civillian population do you no favors.

And you can put whoever you want on ignore list, and continue to play around in your little land of "make-believe all the Elves are good", luckily the majority of us here on the story forums, are more interested in the ACTUAL story of the franchise, so if you aren't going to respond any more, then... Well.. Then it is a good thing actually. Bye.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They tried to rebuild their original religion. That doesn't mean they didn't still have something to believe in during their time as slaves.

They didn't even have their language. So what little they've had would be stories and incomplete myths, barely enough to constitute an entire mythology, let alone a religion. Chances are that most Elves didn't follow any particular religion in those days, maybe Shartan did, maybe he didn't, but what sources we do have, say that he converted to Andrastianism. If for some reason it makes people feel better, that he was only paying lipservice to the religion (even thoguh it wasn't even a religion yet), then sure, fine, whatever floats your boat. But I am gonna go ahead and keep thinking that he, like almost ALL the other rebels, were simply inspired byAndraste and actually believed. Otherwise I am having a hard time understanding why he would give up his own life, in the attempt to save a woman he didn't really care for anyway.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I still don't know why people bother arguing with the pro-Dalish fanatics, they'll always ignore any facts that doesn't say "the elves are blamless innocents who fell to greedy human aggression". The elves slaughter of a human village is "justified" while human retaliation is a "evil conquest against innocents for their land"

[LOLandStuff]

He was smart enough to realize his Creators were a bunch of douches who no matter how hard you prayed to them, they'll keep ignoring you.

Might as well give it a try believing in one god. Saves you the trouble of having to please more than one.

 

Some things about their gods just don't make sense. What with them being tricked and believing that if you're elf enough they'll return. No sense.

[EmissaryofLies]

He was smart enough to realize his Creators were a bunch of douches who no matter how hard you prayed to them, they'll keep ignoring you.

Might as well give it a try believing in one god. Saves you the trouble of having to please more than one.

 

Some things about their gods just don't make sense. What with them being tricked and believing that if you're elf enough they'll return. No sense.

 

It's no more sillier than the 'spread to the four corners and I'll holla at ya' nonsense. 

[LOLandStuff]

It's no more sillier than the 'spread to the four corners and I'll holla at ya' nonsense. 

 

 I know. But at least andrastians admit it was them being a**holes that made the Maker turn from them twice. And since they believe He was impressed by Andraste's prayers or whatever, they hope that it would work.

While the elves either believe their gods were imprisoned or ignored them because humans showed up. They need to make up their mind and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

[Evamitchelle]

The onlt person here who repeatedly fail at backing up their claims, is you. You have yet to provide a single smidgen of evidence that even remotely back up your claims. All you say is: "Well humans also did some bad stuff".... Well... Yes... We know that... They didn't however kill an entire town of Elves just to cover up their own crimes. And Red Corssing is what is being discussed here, and NOTHING the humans did justify what the Elves did to Red Crossing.

No one is denying that humans also were to blame for the tensions between Orlais and the Dales. But only the Elves attacked Red Crossing and massacered the civilians there. The Elves are entirely to blame for that act. Ther eis nothign to discuss on the matter, and your pathetic attempts to whitewash a massacre of a civillian population do you no favors.

And you can put whoever you want on ignore list, and continue to play around in your little land of "make-believe all the Elves are good", luckily the majority of us here on the story forums, are more interested in the ACTUAL story of the franchise, so if you aren't going to respond any more, then... Well.. Then it is a good thing actually. Bye.

 

Since you're so concerned about evidence, care to give me a proper source for: "They didn't however kill an entire town of Elves just to cover up their own crimes" and "massacred the civilians there." I've asked several times, but no one's shown any evidence that the elves did anything more than attack the town (after the villagers attacked them). 

[Steelcan]

Why do we need direct confirmation to prove that the elves destroyed every bit of the Village? We know they attacked, we know they continued the attack past Red Crossing. They either killed or captured the entire population, they wouldn't just burn half of it and let the rest go.

[EmissaryofLies]

 I know. But at least andrastians admit it was them being a**holes that made the Maker turn from them twice. And since they believe He was impressed by Andraste's prayers or whatever, they hope that it would work.

While the elves either believe their gods were imprisoned or ignored them because humans showed up. They need to make up their mind and stop blaming everyone else but themselves.

 

I hope that they do just that in the next installment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since you're so concerned about evidence, care to give me a proper source for: "They didn't however kill an entire town of Elves just to cover up their own crimes" and "massacred the civilians there." I've asked several times, but no one's shown any evidence that the elves did anything more than attack the town (after the villagers attacked them). 

1: They advanced far beyond Red Corssing, meaning the village was either destroyed or enslaved.

 

2: Every source detailing the events, makes it clear that the atrocities the elves commited at Red Crossing enraged the Orlesians. Killing a handful of villagers in a border village, in a time of border skirmishes, is not an atrocity bad enough to enrage the entire nation.

 

3: Have you ever seen what happens when military attacks civilians? It isn't pretty.

[Evamitchelle]

Why do we need direct confirmation to prove that the elves destroyed every bit of the Village? We know they attacked, we know they continued the attack past Red Crossing. They either killed or captured the entire population, they wouldn't just burn half of it and let the rest go.

 

Your side is the one who can't go 3 posts without going "but where's your hard evidence ?", but you're still trying to present something as fact without showing any evidence for it.

 

In fact I would say the evidence shows that the elves did not "kill or destroy the entire population", since the codex entry pretty clearly says that the humans killed Elandrin while showing Adalene the proper funeral rites. How did they manage to do that if they were all dead or captured ? 

[Evamitchelle]

1: They advanced far beyond Red Corssing, meaning the village was either destroyed or enslaved.

 

2: Every source detailing the events, makes it clear that the atrocities the elves commited at Red Crossing enraged the Orlesians. Killing a handful of villagers in a border village, in a time of border skirmishes, is not an atrocity bad enough to enrage the entire nation.

 

3: Have you ever seen what happens when military attacks civilians? It isn't pretty.

 

So show me these sources. All I'm getting in codex entries is "attacked" Red Crossing and "the atrocities they are said to commit enrage humans all over Thedas". 

[LOLandStuff]

May I point out how the elves' side is always

"Humans started it. Whatever horrible things we do, humans made us do it. It's their fault we're taking such drastic measures."

[TheJediSaint]

May I point out how the elves' side is always

"Humans started it. Whatever horrible things we do, humans made us do it. It's their fault we're taking such drastic measures."

The humans started it by being too damn sexy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So show me these sources. All I'm getting in codex entries is "attacked" Red Crossing and "the atrocities they are said to commit enrage humans all over Thedas". 

Does the word "attack" mean something different now than it used to? We are talking abouta  military ATTACKING a civilian population. A military that we KNOW went on to SACKING Montsimmard. Do you know what sacking a city means? It means burning, looting, murdering, raping, pillaging and all that good stuff. THAT is what we know the Dalish military was willing to do. And you think, that when they captured Red Crossing, that they what? Just sat there and starred blankly into a wall because they are Elves? The elves who attacked Red Crossing was desribed as a RAIDING party, do you know what happens during raids? Look up the description of sacking, and you'll get an idea.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The humans started it by being too damn sexy.

Those damn pesky sexy humans! HOW DARE THEY!

[LOLandStuff]

Those damn pesky sexy humans! HOW DARE THEY!

 

Luring proud elven males away from their scrawny females to voluptuous human females.

[Evamitchelle]

Does the word "attack" mean something different now than it used to? We are talking abouta  military ATTACKING a civilian population. A military that we KNOW went on to SACKING Montsimmard. Do you know what sacking a city means? It means burning, looting, murdering, raping, pillaging and all that good stuff. THAT is what we know the Dalish military was willing to do. And you think, that when they captured Red Crossing, that they what? Just sat there and starred blankly into a wall because they are Elves? The elves who attacked Red Crossing was desribed as a RAIDING party, do you know what happens during raids? Look up the description of sacking, and you'll get an idea.

 

Can you explain to me how exactly the people of Red Crossing managed to show Adalene the proper funeral rites if they have all been killed/captured/enslaved by the Emerald Knights ?

 

And you're still not giving me any sources. You're just trying to pass off your assumptions as fact, while simultaneously decrying people not "backing up their claim" that Siona's sister was murdered, which has actual textual evidence. So I think we're done here. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Can you explain to me how exactly the people of Red Crossing managed to show Adalene the proper funeral rites if they have all been killed/captured/enslaved by the Emerald Knights ?

 

And you're still not giving me any sources. You're just trying to pass off your assumptions as fact, while simultaneously decrying people not "backing up their claim" that Siona's sister was murdered, which has actual textual evidence. So I think we're done here. 

Because the description in "Codex entry: The Death of Elandrin" is not the description of the proper attack... I thought that was obvious to even the least invested in the lore....... All that codex entry describes are the events leading up to the Elves capturing Red Crossing.

 

AND AGAIN WITH SIONA'S SISTER.... What the actual **** people? NO ONE. I repeat NO ONE ever denied that Siona's sister was murdered! Why do you keep claiming that people are denying it??!?!? Why are people even discussing it?! Her death and murder is largely irrelevant to the point we are making.. She is just one more death in a conflict, one more statistic. Her death motivated Siona's action, which in turn lead to more violence, which lead to Red Crossing being captured, which lead to a war.