891 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Your side is the one who can't go 3 posts without going "but where's your hard evidence ?", but you're still trying to present something as fact without showing any evidence for it.

 

In fact I would say the evidence shows that the elves did not "kill or destroy the entire population", since the codex entry pretty clearly says that the humans killed Elandrin while showing Adalene the proper funeral rites. How did they manage to do that if they were all dead or captured ? 

there's a difference between "unsubstantiated claim" eg. "Humans were spreading lies about elves" and a reasonable inference eg. "when the elves attacked Red Crossing and then moved on further into Orlais they didn't let the humans go and destroyed everything of value in the town"

[BioWareMod03]

Hey everyone. The general tone of the discussion is becoming hostile. Let's keep it civil in here. Thank you.

[Bowie Hawkins]

The elves slaughter of a human village

People keep claiming that happened without ever providing proof to back it up. So if you want to talk about fanaticism, how about you start there?

[herkles]

so if I get it right.

 

humans did nothing that would make the elves lash out in violance, so it was 100% the elves fault. Meaning that the humans are 0% at fault here.

 

so the Dalish of the Dales were evil isolationist evil racist evil Elves of evil and racisim?

[raging_monkey]

so if I get it right.
 
humans did nothing that would make the elves lash out in violance, so it was 100% the elves fault. Meaning that the humans are 0% at fault here.
 
so the Dalish of the Dales were evil isolationist evil racist evil Elves of evil and racisim?

basically you got it. Lol

Honestly though we have scattered and little contexual knowledge on what really happened

[ArvinDulku]

so if I get it right.

humans did nothing that would make the elves lash out in violance, so it was 100% the elves fault. Meaning that the humans are 0% at fault here.

so the Dalish of the Dales were evil isolationist evil racist evil Elves of evil and racisim?

Yes, that is exactly it.

Lovely we can all agree on it now, cheers.

*rolls eyes*

[dragonflight288]

so if I get it right.

 

humans did nothing that would make the elves lash out in violance, so it was 100% the elves fault. Meaning that the humans are 0% at fault here.

 

so the Dalish of the Dales were evil isolationist evil racist evil Elves of evil and racisim?

 

When elf debates rage, some people pin all blame on the elves and none on humans, regardless of context, if it's the Dalish involved. 

 

It's silly. 

[ArvinDulku]

When elf debates rage, some people pin all blame on the elves and none on humans, regardless of context, if it's the Dalish involved.

It's silly.

Or maybe, just maybe the elves are actually completely at fault at once (actually the Dalish are barely right about anything, as it turns out).

I know, shocking, the horror!

[LOLandStuff]

When elf debates rage, some people pin all blame on the humans and none on elves, regardless of context.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Kreidian]

so if I get it right.

 

humans did nothing that would make the elves lash out in violance, so it was 100% the elves fault. Meaning that the humans are 0% at fault here.

 

so the Dalish of the Dales were evil isolationist evil racist evil Elves of evil and racisim?

 

 

hehe. Funny how the people most racist against elves take one minor bit of info from the game as complete and utter proof of how evil and racist elves are. How conveniently they like to forget all the horrible things humans have done to elves since then, much less all the horrible things they did to lead up to those events. Clearly this one thing totally excuses all human atrocities against elves throughout all of Thedas' history.

 

I just figured this quest simply showed that there are stupid people on both sides of a war, which has always been pretty obvious to me. I just take the elven racists of this thread as proof of that.

[Evamitchelle]

Because the description in "Codex entry: The Death of Elandrin" is not the description of the proper attack... I thought that was obvious to even the least invested in the lore....... All that codex entry describes are the events leading up to the Elves capturing Red Crossing.

 

AND AGAIN WITH SIONA'S SISTER.... What the actual **** people? NO ONE. I repeat NO ONE ever denied that Siona's sister was murdered! Why do you keep claiming that people are denying it??!?!? Why are people even discussing it?! Her death and murder is largely irrelevant to the point we are making.. She is just one more death in a conflict, one more statistic. Her death motivated Siona's action, which in turn lead to more violence, which lead to Red Crossing being captured, which lead to a war.

 

I said I was done on this topic but this is just too good to pass up. There are multiple posts in the last 2 pages or so (and a lot more around the middle of the thread) specifically arguing that Siona's murder can't be proven. ("As such any claim or allegation he makes towards the nature of said death is merely speculation borne of biased suspision, not fact, and as such cannot be considered binding as truth or reliable in any form." ; "...Ok, you have to be messing with me. How does that prove anything? The point of me requesting proof is for you to provide evidence that said narrator has factual backing to justify his assertion that said elf was murdered by humans in cold blood beyond his own biased suspicions.") 

 

The post you responded to by saying "repeatedly fail at backing up their claim" was specifically about this issue. So you are very clearly denying that Siona's sister was murdered as well. 

[dragonflight288]

Or maybe, just maybe the elves are actually completely at fault at once (actually the Dalish are barely right about anything, as it turns out).

I know, shocking, the horror!

 

(sarcasm alert) Yes....of course. And the border skirmishes are a complete non-entity in the situation unless the elves were the aggressor each and every single time when dealing with a rising empire seeking to expand its borders and bring the chant to all corners of the world. 

 

Of course the elves have to be responsible for every single bad thing in the world. Why the elves murdered Siona and tried to pin it all on the humans as a way to justify tracking down a potential traitor into Red Crossing. Of course, those humans would never do anything bad nor would they ever try to instigate violence with a foreign military power, as Mother Petrice can attest. 

[ArvinDulku]

I said I was done on this topic but this is just too good to pass up. There are multiple posts in the last 2 pages or so (and a lot more around the middle of the thread) specifically arguing that Siona's murder can't be proven. ("As such any claim or allegation he makes towards the nature of said death is merely speculation borne of biased suspision, not fact, and as such cannot be considered binding as truth or reliable in any form." ; "...Ok, you have to be messing with me. How does that prove anything? The point of me requesting proof is for you to provide evidence that said narrator has factual backing to justify his assertion that said elf was murdered by humans in cold blood beyond his own biased suspicions.")

The post you responded to by saying "repeatedly fail at backing up their claim" was specifically about this issue. So you are very clearly denying that Siona's sister was murdered as well.

How bout if you gonna quote me, refer to me instead? I have never denied she died, or denied rage at her death was the basis of Sionas overall stupidity.

But again, so what? Can you proof she was willfully murdered by humans? Are you trying to say her death justifies the murder of innocent civilians? The illegal crossing of a sovereign border by hostile armed force?

Seriously, you'll can't prove the nature of her death, her death is irrelevant to the nature of the discussion ie "what started the war" but she keeps getting brought up anyway? What is the angle here?

[ArvinDulku]

(sarcasm alert) Yes....of course. And the border skirmishes are a complete non-entity in the situation unless the elves were the aggressor each and every single time when dealing with a rising empire seeking to expand its borders and bring the chant to all corners of the world.

Of course the elves have to be responsible for every single bad thing in the world. Why the elves murdered Siona and tried to pin it all on the humans as a way to justify tracking down a potential traitor into Red Crossing. Of course, those humans would never do anything bad nor would they ever try to instigate violence with a foreign military power, as Mother Petrice can attest.

See, I just love just how you people move the goal post. It's amazing how horribly predictable it is.

The entire discussion here has centered how the question who is responsible for starting the war between The Dales and Orlais?

That answer is the Elves, whose armed commando unit illegal crossed a sovereign border and invaded a civilian village where they then murdered innocent villagers trying to protect themselves from a hostile force.

That is the spark, the unavoidable and unassailable declaration of war, at which the intent the Knights who enacted this stupidity means nothing.

So yes, what happens before or after have no bearing on the simple fact the Elves themselves initiated and engaged said war as aggressors.

Those my dear friend are facts. But as experience shows, it'll be ignored anyway.

*shrugs*

My phone is 6%, so ill need to retire for now. Have fun people.

[Evamitchelle]

How bout if you gonna quote me, refer to me instead? I have never denied she died, or denied rage at her death was the basis of Sionas overall stupidity.

But again, so what? Can you proof she was willfully murdered by humans? Are you trying to say her death justifies the murder of innocent civilians? The illegal crossing of a sovereign border by hostile armed force?

Seriously, you'll can't prove the nature of her death, her death is irrelevant to the nature of the discussion ie "what started the war" but she keeps getting brought up anyway? What is the angle here?

• I never said you denied her death, just her murder.
• The point isn't "was she murdered or not", the point is the double-standard in asking for hard evidence she was murdered while repeating that the elves massacred the whole town and being unwilling to show evidence for it.
• I can quote you by name if you want, but I didn't think it was very relevant. They said "NO ONE. I repeat NO ONE ever denied that Siona's sister was murdered! ". I showed evidence that someone did. 

[ArvinDulku]

• I never said you denied her death, just her murder.
• The point isn't "was she murdered or not", the point is the double-standard in asking for hard evidence she was murdered while repeating that the elves massacred the whole town and being unwilling to show evidence for it.
• I can quote you by name if you want, but I didn't think it was very relevant. They said "NO ONE. I repeat NO ONE ever denied that Siona's sister was murdered! ". I showed evidence that someone did.

Well I have never claimed massacre, only the killing of innocent villagers by stupid foolish idiots who should have never crossed the border into a hostile sovereign state.

So I feel no obligation to add any further proof, unless you wish to deny said attack and murders did take place?

If not we cool, but apologies though as I may have assumed a certain hostility that is not really there upon my second reading of said post.

Cheers.

Crap at 4% now, ciao people.

[Evamitchelle]

Well I have never claimed massacre, only the killing of innocent villagers by stupid foolish idiots who should have never crossed the border into a hostile sovereign state.

So I feel no obligation to add any further proof, unless you wish to deny said attack and murders did take place?

If not we cool, but apologies though as I may have assumed a certain hostility that is not really there upon my second reading of said post.

Cheers.

Crap at 4% now, ciao people.

 

 

No problem, we're good. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

When elf debates rage, some people pin all blame on the elves and none on humans, regardless of context, if it's the Dalish involved. 

 

It's silly. 

By all means, do explain what justifies an elven military attack on a civilian human population, because I would LOVE to hear it.

 

And again, no one is exhonorating the humans from any blame. We are blaming the Dalish for the unprovoked and unneccesary attack on Red Crossing. We are NOT discussing the events prior to this. We are saying that elves are to blame for the attack on Red Crossing, which they ENTIRELY are. There is no refuting it.

[Reznore57]

My main thought was "so some kind of Romeo and Juliet happened at Red Crossing ."

It's just a case of old hatred keeping people apart and making people unable to communicate properly.

I'm not sure what's the point of debating if it's the elves or humans fault.

 

You just have two people who wanted to be together even if they were different and they were willing to make compromise.

Sadly the rest of the world wasn't.

[Br3admax]

You obviously didn't read the codex entry then. This was hardly "Us against the world," especially since the Chantry at the time denounced, at least officially, the type of thinking that lead to the attack on Red Crossing. 

[herkles]

My main thought was "so some kind of Romeo and Juliet happened at Red Crossing ."

It's just a case of old hatred keeping people apart and making people unable to communicate properly.

I'm not sure what's the point of debating if it's the elves or humans fault.

 

You just have two people who wanted to be together even if they were different and they were willing to make compromise.

Sadly the rest of the world wasn't.

from what I am getting is that it is like romeo and juilet. if the capulets(humans) were innocent, and did NOTHING to antagonize the montegues(elves) who were the whole reason the war started.

 

I was pretty sure that the humans did things to increase tension before the attack on red crossing.

 

but clearly the exalted march was a great and just holy war. because if the humans did nothing to further tensions then it was a black and white war. good innocent humans vs evil racist elves.

 

or did humans not do bad things before and after red crossing to the elves in Orlais?

[Reznore57]

You obviously didn't read the codex entry then. This was hardly "Us against the world," especially since the Chantry at the time denounced, at least officially, the type of thinking that lead to the attack on Red Crossing. 

 

I really don't know what you're talking about?

[TK514]

from what I am getting is that it is like romeo and juilet. if the capulets(humans) were innocent, and did NOTHING to antagonize the montegues(elves) who were the whole reason the war started.

 

I was pretty sure that the humans did things to increase tension before the attack on red crossing.

 

but clearly the exalted march was a great and just holy war. because if the humans did nothing to further tensions then it was a black and white war. good innocent humans vs evil racist elves.

 

or did humans not do bad things before and after red crossing to the elves in Orlais?

 

It would be nice if you would actually add something of value to the conversation rather than repeating the same post over and over.

[phaonica]

The author of the codex always uses "we" instead of "I" to describe the whole situation. "Sione told us" could as easily mean "Sione told others and they told me". "We went" could mean "just those of us who needed to be there went." The whole thing could be questionable.

[Br3admax]

I really don't know what you're talking about?

No one was against their relationship, Siona maybe. They were against a elven champion converting to the Maker and betraying their order's secrets. They weren't starcrossed lovers by any means.