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Finally, we know what happened at the Red Crossing.


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#776
EmperorSahlertz

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from what I am getting is that it is like romeo and juilet. if the capulets(humans) were innocent, and did NOTHING to antagonize the montegues(elves) who were the whole reason the war started.

 

I was pretty sure that the humans did things to increase tension before the attack on red crossing.

 

but clearly the exalted march was a great and just holy war. because if the humans did nothing to further tensions then it was a black and white war. good innocent humans vs evil racist elves.

 

or did humans not do bad things before and after red crossing to the elves in Orlais?

Headdesk.gif

 

It is funny how many times that I have to point out, that NO ONE is exhonorating the humans of any wrongs, nor even denying that the humans were being antagonistic towards the elves. What we are saying is, that no matter what the Orlesians did, it does not justify the attack on Red Crossing. We aren't talking about the larger conflict. We aren't talking about the following war. We are talkign about this one, specific, singular moment in time, when the elven military decided to attack an undefended human civilian settlement, and we are denouncing it as unforgiveable. That is it.

 

But by all means, do attempt to make the Dalish the victims again, they've spent the better part of a millenium doing just that themselves.



#777
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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from what I am getting is that it is like romeo and juilet. if the capulets(humans) were innocent, and did NOTHING to antagonize the montegues(elves) who were the whole reason the war started.
 
I was pretty sure that the humans did things to increase tension before the attack on red crossing.
 
but clearly the exalted march was a great and just holy war. because if the humans did nothing to further tensions then it was a black and white war. good innocent humans vs evil racist elves.
 
or did humans not do bad things before and after red crossing to the elves in Orlais?


Didn't the exalted march only happen mostly out of desperation because the elven army was 1 city away from conquering VR?

#778
Dabrikishaw

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I agree it's good to know what the truth of the matter is when it came to Red Crossing. 



#779
Br3admax

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Didn't the exalted march only happen mostly out of desperation because the elven army was 1 city away from conquering VR?

It wasn't even a real Exalted March. While some of "Andraste's Champions" came from all over Thedas, the vast majority of the army was simply Orlesian. It was Orlais vs. The Dales, and they lost. They also weren't one city from conquering Val Royeaux or Orlais. They did sack it however. 



#780
EmperorSahlertz

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Didn't the exalted march only happen mostly out of desperation because the elven army was 1 city away from conquering VR?

They were laying siege to Val Royaux itself when the call went out.



#781
dragonflight288

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By all means, do explain what justifies an elven military attack on a civilian human population, because I would LOVE to hear it.

 

And again, no one is exhonorating the humans from any blame. We are blaming the Dalish for the unprovoked and unneccesary attack on Red Crossing. We are NOT discussing the events prior to this. We are saying that elves are to blame for the attack on Red Crossing, which they ENTIRELY are. There is no refuting it.

 

I'm not saying people are exonerating humans. Nor am I saying that the elves didn't fight in the town. I was mainly being sarcastic and was running my mouth. I saw the whole things as a huge misunderstanding where both sides are at fault. Here is how I see it. 

 

The Chantry, quite likely the local one in Red Crossing was likely spreading rumors that the elves were behind every human disappearance and calling it abductions for heathen sacrifices. The elves were determined to keep humans out entirely  and engaged in aggressive isolation policies. The border skirmishes had both sides on edge. An elven soldier fell in love with a human woman, went to her in an attempt to defect, the elves sent in some special forces in the Emerald Knights to investigate, something every nation does even today I might add whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. The woman ran to them carrying something, and one of the elves shot her dead, only to discover what a huge screw up that was after the fact. 

 

General Stonewall Jackson's men did the same thing in the American Civil War, shooting and killing their own commander because they couldn't tell he was on their side at night. 

 

The town rallied and attacked the elves in response, who fought and defended themselves before retreating back to their own land. This conflict in the town itself was the straw that broke the camel's back and started the war. 

 

Both sides are at fault here by my estimate. 


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#782
Steelcan

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And others say that the attack was unjustified and blame the start of the war on the elves


Not the cause mind you, that ran both ways due to border tensions. But what started the war officially was the attack on Red Crossing. This was followed up by a full-scale invasion of Orlais by the elves.

#783
EmperorSahlertz

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I'm not saying people are exonerating humans. Nor am I saying that the elves didn't fight in the town. I was mainly being sarcastic and was running my mouth. I saw the whole things as a huge misunderstanding where both sides are at fault. Here is how I see it. 

 

The Chantry, quite likely the local one in Red Crossing was likely spreading rumors that the elves were behind every human disappearance and calling it abductions for heathen sacrifices. The elves were determined to keep humans out entirely  and engaged in aggressive isolation policies. The border skirmishes had both sides on edge. An elven soldier fell in love with a human woman, went to her in an attempt to defect, the elves sent in some special forces in the Emerald Knights to investigate, something every nation does even today I might add whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. The woman ran to them carrying something, and one of the elves shot her dead, only to discover what a huge screw up that was after the fact. 

 

General Stonewall Jackson's men did the same thing in the American Civil War, shooting and killing their own commander because they couldn't tell he was on their side at night. 

 

The town rallied and attacked the elves in response, who fought and defended themselves before retreating back to their own land. This conflict in the town itself was the straw that broke the camel's back and started the war. 

 

Both sides are at fault here by my estimate. 

And you realize that Red Crossing was later attacked AGAIN, but this time captured by the elves, and that it was this attack which that triggered the war? As outlined by WoT. The "Codex entry: The Death of Elandrin" only describes what happned prior to the attack, and how the situation escalated, not the actual attack proper.



#784
Hellion Rex

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And you realize that Red Crossing was later attacked AGAIN, but this time captured by the elves, and that it was this attack which that triggered the war? As outlined by WoT. The "Codex entry: The Death of Elandrin" only describes what happned prior to the attack, and how the situation escalated, not the actual attack proper.

Wait, hold up. Clarification. The massacre of those townspeople by the elves occurred, and then it was attacked again by elves later? Huh?



#785
Steelcan

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Wait, hold up. Clarification. The massacre of those townspeople by the elves occurred, and then it was attacked again by elves later? Huh?

presumably when the Elves invaded Orlais



#786
LobselVith8

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Wait, hold up. Clarification. The massacre of those townspeople by the elves occurred, and then it was attacked again by elves later? Huh?


WoT doesn't actually read this; no source claims the entire village was killed. The brevity of the entry about the fall of the Dales also never gets into the nuances of the war. Page 28 of WoT reads: "Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles." That citation doesn't get into the contradictory historical accounts from the humans and the Dalish, simply that Red Crossing was attacked (which is what the scroll covers), and the Chantry responded.

#787
Hellion Rex

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presumably when the Elves invaded Orlais

Why attack it again when all the people in the town were already massacred?



#788
Hellion Rex

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Edit: Never mind, I'm confusing myself here.



#789
Steelcan

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Why attack it again when all the people in the town were already massacred?

admittedly we don't know that everyone in it died in the initial attack

 

However, its unlikely it was spared once the full invasion moved through



#790
Hellion Rex

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admittedly we don't know that everyone in it died in the initial attack

 

However, its unlikely it was spared once the full invasion moved through

Yeah, I understand that. I had just assumed that the massacre was the infamous Red Crossing incident, to which the Chantry responded with full on Exalted March.



#791
EmperorSahlertz

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Yeah, I understand that. I had just assumed that the massacre was the infamous Red Crossing incident, to which the Chantry responded with full on Exalted March.

The Chantry didn't get involved until the Siege of Val Royaux was about to happen.



#792
herkles

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question: did orlais or the chantry do anything to increase tensions before the attack on Red Crossing?



#793
Steelcan

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question: did orlais or the chantry do anything to increase tensions before the attack on Red Crossing?

officially?  We have no evidence of any direct aggression coming from wither group, sanctioned or unsanctioned.

 

The events leading up to the elven attack on Red Crossing seem to have been entirely local in origin



#794
EmperorSahlertz

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question: did orlais or the chantry do anything to increase tensions before the attack on Red Crossing?

Probably. Unless you are talking about Red Crossing, in which case we don't know for certain. However, the overall conflict: Probably.



#795
raging_monkey

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question: did orlais or the chantry do anything to increase tensions before the attack on Red Crossing?

kinda... at that point a squirrel could have done that

#796
Hellion Rex

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The Chantry didn't get involved until the Siege of Val Royaux was about to happen.

Ok...though I'm wondering why the hell the Chantry would wait so long to call the Exalted March as the elves clearly didn't show any signs of stopping.



#797
Aimi

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They were laying siege to Val Royaux itself when the call went out.


I suppose. BioWare has a habit of rewriting wars like this to make very little sense.

Like how in Mass Effect 3, Primarch Adrien Victus claimed that krogan had launched attacks on Palaven itself - the capital of the Turian Hierarchy - and that only the deployment of the genophage stopped them. Never mind that the genophage was a slow-acting mechanism that would only tell on krogan numbers after more than a generation, and that it did not kill any fighting forces already in the field. It was not a tactical weapon. It is pretty much impossible for the deployment of the genophage to have halted the invasion of Palaven.

Other in-universe sources indicate that turian and Council forces had achieved overall military superiority by the time the genophage was deployed and that even if the krogan had tried to threaten an invasion of Palaven it would have been little better than a raid, akin to the summer 1864 Confederate attack on Washington (to continue with the American Civil War analogies used by dragonflight above). But, obviously, that isn't what Victus says. He specifically calls the battle for Palaven against the krogan a "last stand". Militarily, that's ridiculous.

Instead, Victus says those lines not because they are a plausible way to formulate the narrative of the war, but because the Mass Effect writing team wanted to reemphasize the potential threat of the resurgent krogan by making them as much of a threat to turian society in 700 CE as the Reapers were in 2186 CE. The game featured a great many sympathetic situations for krogan, and Victus' comment was one way to try to balance that out - whether it made historical sense or not.

There's a similar problem with the Exalted March narrative. It strains plausibility to claim this train of events:

1. Dalish elves and Orlais go to war following Red Crossing crisis
2. Dalish elven armies sweep all before them, pushing through the Heartlands
3. Dalish elven armies besiege Val Royeaux
4. Orlesian Chantry issues calls for an Exalted March
5. Orlesian Chantry organizes Exalted March armies
6. Dalish armies capture Val Royeaux, Exalted March armies pursue and turn back invasion
7. Exalted March armies comprehensively annihilate Dalish elven resistance and occupy Halamshiral
8. Exalted March armies win final campaign against Dalish elves in Dirthavaren and begin Orlesian program of annexation, eviction, and settlement

First, the Dalish armies curbstomped the Orlesians so badly that they managed to pose a serious threat to the capital. Then, they besieged the capital, and continued to besiege it while the Orlesians amassed a relief army of crusaders. But where did these crusaders come from? Historically, crusading armies on Earth were primarily composed of people who already had military experience and a career. Kings and princes took their soldiers, their nobles, and their nobles' retainers with them to the Holy Land or Egypt or the Baltic or wherever. So apparently, a vast chunk of the Orlesian army was nowhere to be seen during the Dalish elves' initial march of victory, and only decided to fight once Val Royeaux itself was under threat. I suppose that's not impossible, but it seems a little silly that the vast Orlesian military establishment took that long to actually respond to the crisis.

This problem can be mitigated by including new recruits and volunteers among the Exalted Marchers, making the war an Orlesian war of national resistance rather than a nobles' crusade. But that has its own problems. Untrained levy armies are well and good, and having them break the siege of Val Royeaux could be plausible enough if that had happened. But these Exalted Marchers went on to destroy the Dalish armies and occupy the Dales: they fought long campaigns away from their homes and farms. Extended campaigning for the ten years credited by the Codex (Siege of Val Royeaux 2:10 Glory - Fall of Halamshiral 2:20 Glory) would be difficult enough for professional soldiers; levies would lose discipline almost immediately, to say nothing of going home for the harvest. Adding these recruits to the narrative would not alleviate the plausibility issues. It is simply not creditable for them to have wiped out the invading army and gone on to completely conquer the Dales.

Now, there are plenty of examples of countries that start out wars slowly but gain steam as time goes on. But it's hard to get that to work with Orlais. As something akin to a medieval European state, the majority of its usable military manpower - the manpower with experience and training - would already be ready to participate in the first few campaigns. It would take years of fighting experience to make an effective soldier, and training systems would be far more rudimentary than nowadays. And doing all this on the strategic and operational defensive is even harder to credit.

The closest analogy in medieval warfare I can think of is the war between the Byzantine Empire and Sasanian Iran from 602 to 628 CE, when civil war shattered the Byzantine armies so badly in the first half of the war that Iranian armies penetrated the frontier fortress belt and eventually besieged the capital, Constantinople. The Emperor Herakleios eventually managed to stabilize the military situation, slowly rebuilt armies from the fragments of those that had existed before, and mounted one of the most brilliant efforts in the history of warfare to bring the war back into Iranian territory and eventually defeat the Sasanian Empire. But that war devastated the victors; the Byzantines could barely force Iran into making peace on the basis of the status quo ante bellum, and a few years later the exhausted empire didn't have anything left to ward off the Muslim invasions. On this analogy, it would be like the Byzantines losing the whole war to Iran, including the capital, then miraculously making a comeback, and then conquering all of Iran into the bargain. And remaining the preeminent power in the world for centuries to come. That's...kind of on the ridiculous side.

So, like the krogan thing, I think that the narrative of the Exalted March of the Dales was crafted primarily for story purposes instead of plausibility ones. Only in the last few years, with the release of World of Thedas Volume 1 and Inquisition, has BioWare's portrayal of the Exalted Marches included emphasis on Dalish offensive actions at Montsimmard and Val Royeaux. Before that, it looked far more one-sided, and the Dalish looked far more like victims. Now...not so much.
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#798
raging_monkey

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Ok...though I'm wondering why the hell the Chantry would wait so long to call the Exalted March as the elves clearly didn't show any signs of stopping.

the chantry tries to be diplomatic so theres that reason

#799
LOLandStuff

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Chantry is neutral. It just happened their grand cathedral was in Val Royaeux.



#800
dragonflight288

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the chantry tries to be diplomatic so theres that reason

 

Or the Divine was dragging her feet on calling for an Exalted March, or messengers weren't getting there in a timely manner. Or they thought Orlais would do well and only when the elves were on their doorstep did they take them seriously. 

 

We don't know why, but it's fun thinking up possibilities. 


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