893 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

....oh bloody hell.

 

What I have been stating is that if you cross into another nations border, soverign soil, and proceed to butcher an entire town in cold blooded savagery cause you're anti interacial marriage (before you start, these wer Emerald Knight, soldiers of the Dales, thus the sword arm of Elven rule), said nation has every right to consider it an uprovoked act of war and come over to kick your ass in.

 

If that is still not clear, well..well I dunno what else to say.

 

I recall the same people making the argument that you couldn't condemn Orlais or the Chantry if templars (the militant arm of the Chantry) were sent into the Dales, and yet now I'm reading all of the Dalish being blamed because of the actions of a few people.

 

I wouldn't bother.

 

He knows there isn't a single legitimate source for it, but he'll continue to dodge it.

 

It's mentioned by the City elves (specifically from the hahren of Highever) and the Dalish, who both reference the Chantry sending their people to convert the elves.

[Steelcan]

and we know the Dalish don't have the whole story, the city elves are even less liekly to have it right

[LOLandStuff]

If there's one thing I learned about the elves in DAI is that being a slave is in their blood. And complaining...lots of complaining and blaming others for their own made misery.

[LobselVith8]

Sorry, I meant the Templars being sent in to the Dales before everything went to hell. I recalled you mentioning that in our previous debates, and I didn't know if it has been confirmed by DAI.

 

You mean templars entering the Dales after the missionaries were kicked out? It's not confirmed or contradicted. As for the human who joined the Exalted March because he wanted to kill elves (followed by the Chantry honoring him and the Halamshiral elves considering his name a curse), the source for this latest piece of information is Inquisition.

[ArvinDulku]

 

I recall the same people making the argument that you couldn't condemn Orlais or the Chantry if templars (the militant arm of the Chantry) were sent into the Dales, and yet now I'm reading all of the Dalish being blamed because of the actions of a few people.

I never made those arguments, so I don't care. 
 

It's mentioned by the City elves (specifically from the hahren of Highever) and the Dalish, who both reference the Chantry sending their people to convert the elves.

Proof my good sir, historically acurate recorded proof.

Not word of mouth, or crappy Dalish "verbal history".

Like the kind we have of Elves butchering entire towns, that kind of proof eh?

[Palidane]

You can't blame the Chantry for beating the Elves, but you can blame them for trying to exterminate them all. The Elves declared war on Orlais by attacking Red Crossing, and apparently put up a hell of a fight before they were put down. The resulting genocide and diaspora were unnecessary, but also unsurprising.

[LobselVith8]

Proof my good sir, historically acurate recorded proof.

Not word of mouth, or crappy Dalish "verbal history".

Like the kind we have of Elves butchering entire towns, that kind of proof eh?

 

Technically, the Dalish have written and oral history; it's why some historical entries are written, and why even a hunter is capable of writing in his journal about his thoughts on the current lifestyle of the People.

 

As for your reference to the singular town of Red Crossing, we also have the border skirmishes noted long before Red Crossing, and the schism between the Dales and Orlais during the reign of Drakon, so it's hardly an isolated incident.

[Steelcan]

You can't blame the Chantry for beating the Elves, but you can blame them for trying to exterminate them all. The Elves declared war on Orlais by attacking Red Crossing, and apparently put up a hell of a fight before they were put down. The resulting genocide and diaspora were unnecessary, but also unsurprising.

for the genocide bit, do we have evidence of systematic slaughter of elves?  The human nations seemed ok with accepting elves into alienages, so this clearly wasn't a war of extermination

[Steelcan]

 

As for your reference to the singular town of Red Crossing, we also have the border skirmishes noted long before Red Crossing, and the schism between the Dales and Orlais during the reign of Drakon, so it's hardly an isolated incident.

Do you have an account directly in front of you that is contemporary to the events covered?

[ArvinDulku]

 

Technically, the Dalish have written and oral history; it's why some historical entries are written, and why even a hunter is capable of writing in his journal about his thoughts on the current lifestyle of the People.
 
As for your reference to the singular town of Red Crossing, we also have the border skirmishes noted long before Red Crossing, and the schism between the Dales and Orlais during the reign of Drakon, so it's hardly an isolated incident.

 
Not what I asked innit? I asked for proof, which you have yet to furnish.

I'll wait.

[LOLandStuff]

Pfff at Dalish and their written, especially, oral history...

 

They got their immortality, Arlathan, Dales, and gods wrong.

[TheJediSaint]

I always hated it when my history assignments required primary sources.

[Evamitchelle]

....oh bloody hell.

 

What I have been stating is that if you cross into another nations border, soverign soil, and proceed to butcher an entire town in cold blooded savagery cause you're anti interacial marriage (before you start, these wer Emerald Knight, soldiers of the Dales, thus the sword arm of Elven rule), said nation has every right to consider it an uprovoked act of war and come over to kick your ass in.

 

If that is still not clear, well..well I dunno what else to say.

 

It's not cold-blooded murder when you're directly responding to an attack. The humans of Red Crossing attacked the Dalish despite being seriously outnumbered and got themselves slaughtered, the Dalish didn't just go to Red Crossing with the intention of killing everyone.

 

Also of note, the codex entry about the Exalted March of the Dales: "The likely truth is that the elves merely wished to maintain sovereignty over lands promised to them by Blessed Andraste herself, when the humans showed clear intent to undermine their autonomy."

 

"The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people."

 

And consider that the codex entry on Red Crossing told us that this all started with the murder of an elven woman by human hunters.

[Steelcan]

I always hated it when my history assignments required primary sources.

bloody research paper I turned in today, bloody Cassius Dio, bloody Paterculus

[LobselVith8]

Eh. History is history. I'm all for Dalish/Andrastian reconciliation provided neither side tries to conquer and impose its norms on the other again.

 

Well, there's Wycome, where Clan Lavellan can become heroes, Keeper Istimaethoriel can become one of the leaders, and her actions lead to the elves of the Alienage also getting representation with one of their own becoming a leader.

 

There's also Skyhold (an elven fortress in the Dales) under a Dalish Inquisitor, where Dalish are working alongside Andrastian elves and humans. It's actually an optimistic look at reconciliation.

[Steelcan]

"The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people."

 

got an explanation that isn't the equivalent of 9/11 trutherism?

[TEWR]

In the Emerald Graves, there is a temple which served as base for the Emerald Knigths. There are recordings there of what happened at Red Crossing.

 

Skirmishes had been fought for some time along the border. One day, an Emerald Knigth fell in love with a human woman. Intent on living with her, he was going to convert to Andrastianism and live in Red Crossing.

However, he was followed by an elf who discovered the affair. That elf returned to the other Emerald Knights who decided to follow the previous one to Red Crossing to demand an explanation.

When the human woman saw one of the elves, she ran at her with something in her hand. The elf shot her.

Turns out, she was holding a letter for the Emerald Knigth she had fallen in love and that she had been followed by people from Red Crossing. When they realized what had happened, they attacked the elves and were slaugthered.

 

Afterwards, the first Emerald Knigth found the corpse of his love and was discovered by humans who killed him. His body was then discovered by the elves and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

Well, ****.

 

To clarify, the Emerald Knight was going to nominally convert to Andrastianism, but he didn't actually have a strong belief in either religion because he had never seen or heard from the gods on either side.

 

And the elf didn't discover the affair. She feared that the Emerald Knight was going to convert. It wasn't until after she fired the arrows that she realized what the hell she'd done.

 

I handed over the information to the Dalish, who gave me a quest to try and mend the broken bridge with Red Crossing. I'm glad I did that, because I have no idea if the Chantry would've had a quest and tbh I wouldn't be shocked if they tried to cover it up.

[Steelcan]

 

There's also Skyhold (an elven fortress in the Dales) under a Dalish Inquisitor, where Dalish are working alongside Andrastian elves and humans. It's actually an optimistic look at reconciliation.

Skyhod is in thh Frostbacks on the border of Orlais and Ferelden, its been reconstructed numerous times, it is in no way an elven fortification, just look at the architecture

[Palidane]

Well, there's Wycome, where Clan Lavellan can become heroes, Keeper Istimaethoriel can become one of the leaders, and her actions lead to the elves of the Alienage also getting representation with one of their own becoming a leader.

 

There's also Skyhold (an elven fortress in the Dales) under a Dalish Inquisitor, where Dalish are working alongside Andrastian elves and humans. It's actually an optimistic look at reconciliation.

A specific set of circumstances. I would not expect this to have massive impact on Dalish-Human relations.

 

In fact, I would say that the future looks fairly grim, as we know that we will be turning north after this game. Hard to see how elven rights will be relevant in Tevinter or Antiva.

[TEWR]

Skyhod is in thh Frostbacks on the border of Orlais and Ferelden, its been reconstructed numerous times, it is in no way an elven fortification, just look at the architecture

 

Clearly you haven't talked to Morrigan, as she says it is Elven in origin. As I recall, there are also notes scattered around that talk of how it has architectural styles from all kinds of cultures -- Elves among them I believe.

[LOLandStuff]

Lob thinks that just because he can play a Dalish inquisitor, he can move mountains.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If there's one thing I learned about the elves in DAI is that being a slave is in their blood.

Their blood writing is even literally a "Property of" slave marking stamped into their faces. 

[LobselVith8]

Clearly you haven't talked to Morrigan, as she says it is Elven in origin. As I recall, there are also notes scattered around that talk of how it has architectural styles from all kinds of cultures -- Elves among them I believe.

 

Solas also mentions it's elven in origin. It's also mentioned to reside in the Dales. "Following the destruction of Haven, an abandoned castle in the Dales known as Skyhold now houses the only thing keeping Thedas from its darkest hour."

[Steelcan]

Clearly you haven't talked to Morrigan, as she says it is Elven in origin. As I recall, there are also notes scattered around that talk of how it has architectural styles from all kinds of cultures -- Elves among them I believe.

in origin yes, but its clearly not an elven structure and hasn't been for ages

[Dark Helmet]

 

And consider that the codex entry on Red Crossing told us that this all started with the murder of an elven woman by human hunters.

 

 

You have it backwards.

 

A human women was murdered by Emerald Knights.