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[Steelcan]

 
At least Roman historians were terrible in predictable ways. Tendentious moralizing, obvious handjobs for their patron's feelings, no real knowledge of anything happening to poor people or women on either side of the frontier, embarrassingly stock battle narratives that didn't actually describe events, hilariously inflated numbers for the sizes of military units, and speeches invented out of whole cloth based on how the historian wanted the figure he was discussing to appear.

And since Velleius Paterculus and Cassius Dio were "Silver Age" historians, you can add in "godawful purple prose and ponderous rhetorical constructs" to the list as well.

I finished a paper a few days ago on the historiography of King Amalric of Jerusalem's Egyptian expeditions. Wading through Ibn al-Athir's Kamil fi'l Tarikh is just about the worst thing.

That I can all deal with, its easy to sift through through "and then we were awesome over here and so on...."

 

hey >.> I like their writing style, well the translated version, my Latin is far too rusty for that, Caesar was hard enough

[Dark Helmet]

Human sexiness is the most insidious weapon in the Chantry's arsenal.

 

Which is hella dangerous because Elves are supposed to be the most suetastically beautiful race in the setting!

[Evamitchelle]

 
 
Oh no, that happened, and even then I have no idea how it happned.

Could have been an accident for all you or I know, and you can't prove otherwise.

And considering that was NOT the reason they went to Red Crossing, it thus has no bearing on the overt savagery they then commited.

No way around that mate.

 

It definitely played a part. That elven woman was Siona and Elandrin's sister. Siona had already lost her sister, she feared losing her brother as well, that's why she was so opposed to Elandrin having an Andrastian human lover. 

 

Also the preceding line is "Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the Hunters' path." It paints a pretty clear picture of what happened: the humans thought the Dalish had abducted someone so they killed an elven woman in retaliation. 

[Xilizhra]

the fact there is no elven movement to reclaim the Dales is what I meant

The Dalish don't really want the Dales back. It's a poor strategic location at this point anyway.

[LOLandStuff]

Now why would the Dalish admit it was entirely their fault? Even with proof they somehow manage to involve humans as well.

Can't take all the blame, can we now?

[Palidane]

I'm curious, is it better for the elves to axe Gaspard and unite Celene and Briala, or ice Celene and let Briala use Gaspard as a puppet? I respect Gaspard a lot more than Celene, but not enough to let him rule alone.

[TEWR]

Elandrin, our brother.

Falon'Din guide you. Maker guide you.

Let here the truth be kept, lest you be remembered a traitor, or our sorrow seem a passing woe.

Though you swore to serve our people, there were those questioning your heart.

Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory. Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path. You carried her body back to us, you mourned with us—yet your heart was distracted. Siona begged for vengeance and you turned away.

More and more you vanished without word or explanation. When whispers rose that you would swear yourself to their Maker, we feared what would come.

Siona sought to save you, to bring you back to us. She had lost a sister, must she also lose a brother? Beneath the trees she saw you with a woman, the one who turned you from us. The woman gestured toward the village. You and she turned to gaze upon the Chantry's walls.

Siona returned. She told us how humans were turning you against us. How their lies must have filled you. As a loyal servant to the Maker's cause, you would betray our secrets. When we went to ask if there was truth in this, you were already gone.

So we sought to stop you. With haste, Siona led here people to the village. There we would challenge you. There we would bring you back to us... or to justice. In the dim of a moonless night, she saw Siona through the trees. She raced toward Siona, a cry on her lips and something in her hand. Siona's arrow flew. So the woman fell, the name "Elandrin" dying on her lips, daisies slipping from her grasp.

The men of the village suspected the girl's flight, and heard the scream. They fell upon the elves, but were no match.

Siona's haste surpassed your own. You knelt beneath the trees, blood-soaked petals clinging to your clothes from a final embrace. When more humans came, you would not be moved—and they would not listen. Their arrows found your heart and you fell beside her. We found your body in the river where they cast you aside. She was taken by her own. It was not the end, but your part is past.

Rest now as our honored brother once more. A wreath of daisies at your brow, the letter she carried in your hand. Whoever guides you, whoever guides her, may your souls meet once more in the beyond.

Faded blood stains the letter:

Adalene,

What care have I for gods I have never seen, for a Maker I do not know? Let others distract themselves with such lofty concerns. I know only this life, I have seen only this world, and I care only for you.

Perhaps your priestess distrusts the sincerity of "uncivilized" elves. If she must hear me say I will follow the Maker, so be it. You god intercedes as much as ours. My life will not change.

I will return in two weeks' time. My heart longs for you 'till then, and will remain with you forever after.

Elandrin

 

 

here people, have the codex we get from the quest. Read it and stop acting like the Elves of the Dales are 100% at fault. or if no one's acted as such yet, then i'm posting this preemptively. both sides are to blame.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish don't really want the Dales back. It's a poor strategic location at this point anyway.

 

Technically, the Dalish can get a part of the Dales when the elven Inquisitor cements his center of power for the Inquisition in Skyhold, which is located in the Dales.

[ArvinDulku]

 

Read the codex entry again. The humans killed an elven woman, her sister was Siona, her brother Elandrin. Elandrin fell in love with a human woman, and was going to fake-convert so they could be together. Siona saw Elandrin and his lover together, told the others Elandrin was gonna betray them and convert. Siona and the Emerald Knights went to Red Crossing to confront Elandrin to either bring hum back/bring him to justice. Elandrin's lover saw them, ran towards them with "a cry on her lips and something in her hand" and Siona shot her with an arrow. The men of the village then ran out and attacked the Dalish, but were "no match". 
 
They went to Red Crossing to get Elandrin back, not to murder his lover. 
 
And the quote I provided isn't from a Chantry scholar, it's an unknown author, published by the University of Orlais in 9:12 Dragon.

Dude, I know the codex, and considering its discovery was one of the finest moment in my DA gaming history, I happen to know it well enough without you quoting.

Yes, the elven girl was killed, but YOU or anyone cannot prove it was an act of murder or an accident.

Secondly, considering it was in fact not the reason they went to Red Crossing it has no bearing on anything forthwith (you ack this btw, so I dont understand the confusion).

Thirdly, you continue to continue to ignore they were the invaders, thus humans were prefectly in their right to defend their town.

Lastly, what isn't justified is the fact well armed and elite soldiers of the Elven Empire then decided to butcher an entire town becuase they had crimially invaded and killed a human.

Yeah, still all their fault.

[Aimi]

The Dalish don't really want the Dales back. It's a poor strategic location at this point anyway.

Didn't we have multiple threads a few months back where Lobsel and some other Dalish die-hards argued that reestablishing an elven state in the Dales was totes the best idea because it had an extremely favorable geo-strategic location that would allow the elves to punch above their weight in dealing with the more populous human monarchies?

[LOLandStuff]

Technically, the Dalish can get a part of the Dales when the elven Inquisitor cements his center of power for the Inquisition in Skyhold, which is located in the Dales.

 

Where? In fanfiction territory?

[ArvinDulku]

 

here people, have the codex we get from the quest. Read it and stop acting like the Elves of the Dales are 100% at fault. or if no one's acted as such yet, then i'm posting this preemptively. both sides are to blame.

...But that is exactly what it says, so I am not sure how else to react?

[SgtSteel91]

 

Dude, I know the codex, and considering its discovery was one of the finest moment in my DA gaming history, I happen to know it well enough without you quoting.

Yes, the elven girl was killed, but YOU or anyone cannot prove it was an premiated act of murder or an accident.

Secondly, considering it was in fact not the reason they went to Red Crossing it has no bearing on anything forthwith (you ack this btw, so I dont understand the confusion).

Thirdly, you continue to continue to ignore they were the invader, thus human were prefectly in right to defend their town.

Lastly, what isn't justified is the fact well armed and elite soldiers of the Elven Empire then decided to butcher an entire town becuase they had crimially invaded and killed a human.

Yeah, still all their fault.

 

So they send an apology Halla to Red Crossing. And I'm sure they will stop saying the humans are entirely at fault for losing the Dales. What more do you want?

[Xilizhra]

Didn't we have multiple threads a few months back where Lobsel and some other Dalish die-hards argued that reestablishing an elven state in the Dales was totes the best idea because it had an extremely favorable geo-strategic location that would allow the elves to punch above their weight in dealing with the more populous human monarchies?

Probably, but I wasn't arguing for that side.

[LobselVith8]

I'm curious, is it better for the elves to axe Gaspard and unite Celene and Briala, or ice Celene and let Briala use Gaspard as a puppet? I respect Gaspard a lot more than Celene, but not enough to let him rule alone.

 

Briala is able to help the elves of Orlais when she uses Gaspard as a puppet. The Epilogue says: "Consider the mighty empire of Orlais, where Gaspard has ascended to the Golden Throne. His rule continues only so long as he bows to the will of Briala - the first elf to be granted titles and land. Soon, new rights are granted to elves throughout the land. Plans are made to tear down Alienage walls."

[ArvinDulku]

So they send an apology Halla to Red Crossing. And I'm sure they will stop saying the humans are entirely at fault for losing the Dales. What more do you want?

 
...I think you're being sarsactic, cause if so, right on man.

If not...well, "hey Humans, sorry that we killed an entire town and sparked a 10 year war and then spend years wrongly blaming humans for our own stupidity with a painful air of arrogance, but hell, have a halla."

....
 

[Br3admax]

Technically, the Dalish can get a part of the Dales when the elven Inquisitor cements his center of power for the Inquisition in Skyhold, which is located in the Dales.

You do realise this is an organization made out of humans mostly yes? Even you're stretching has it's limits. 

[LobselVith8]

Where? In fanfiction territory?

 

Skyhold is under the rule of the Inquisitor and the Inquisition, so the answer would be: in the game.

[TheJediSaint]

You do realise this is an organization made out of humans mostly yes? Even you're stretching has it's limits. 

It really doesn't.

[Br3admax]

Which explains why Keeper Hawren and the Dalish say that humans and elves both played a part in the war between the Dales and the Chantry, after "The Knight's Tomb".

The humans being scared of elves attacking them for years because DAJesus, with the elves finally just saying, "**** it," and killing everyone. Totes the humans fault, bro. 

[SgtSteel91]

 
...I think you're being sarsactic, cause if so, right on man.

If not...well, "hey Humans, sorry that we killed an entire town and sparked a 10 year war and then spend years wrongly blaming humans for our own stupidity with a apinful air of arrogance, but hell, have a halla."

....
 

 

I'm serious, they recognize their fault in Red Crossing Massacre and send the Halla as an apology and a show of good faith for the future. It's not like they can pay reparations. They do admit fault, why are you so angry at them?

 

I just like the idea of and saying apology Halla.

[TheJediSaint]

So they send an apology Halla to Red Crossing. And I'm sure they will stop saying the humans are entirely at fault for losing the Dales. What more do you want?

Knowing the Elves, it probably wouldn't be a very good Halla.

[LobselVith8]

You do realise this is an organization made out of humans mostly yes? Even you're stretching has it's limits. 

 

Humans who follow the command of the elven Inquisitor, and view him as a holy figure who was chosen by the Maker and Andraste. The same place where the Dalish can walk around freely, and where the Inquisitor's word to treat the mages as equals is accepted.

[Palidane]

Skyhold is under the rule of the Inquisitor and the Inquisition, so the answer would be: in the game.

Skyhold is in the Frostback mountains, which is under Ferelden's sovereignty. Not that I think the crown will try and take it back, but it is nominally in his territory.

[Evamitchelle]

 

Dude, I know the codex, and considering its discovery was one of the finest moment in my DA gaming history, I happen to know it well enough without you quoting.

Yes, the elven girl was killed, but YOU or anyone cannot prove it was an premiated act of murder or an accident.

Secondly, considering it was in fact not the reason they went to Red Crossing it has no bearing on anything forthwith (you ack this btw, so I dont understand the confusion).

Thirdly, you continue to continue to ignore they were the invader, thus human were prefectly in right to defend their town.

Lastly, what isn't justified is the fact well armed and elite soldiers of the Elven Empire then decided to butcher an entire town becuase they had crimially invaded and killed a human.

Yeah, still all their fault.

 

I don't see how the murder of an elven woman by the humans of Red Crossing - either on purpose or by accident - had no bearing on what happened there later. If Siona's sister hadn't been killed she wouldn't have been half so desperate to get her brother Elandrin back. The codex entry literally says they went to Red Crossing to get Elandrin back, not to destroy the village. So it's not premeditated cold-blooded murder as you keep saying.