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[Vorathrad]

Since you are talking/theorizing about the nature of Elvhens, I leave these thoughts here that i'm trying to connect but failing to do so

*snip questions for awesome discussion*

 

If someone has an insight, I'll gladly listen!

 

1 & 3) I'm with MayriyaNoori here, I also think they were a mixture of the three. Maybe they were like Cole in a sense, that they are spirits or some other beings in the Fade made material. That same connection with the Fade would be why magic was "part of being elf", as Solas says.

 

4) Before reading Mayriya comment, I thought this referred to the fact that elves were able to shapeshift at some time. But now I think it makes a lot of sense that Kieran is referring to the vallaslin.

 

5) I interpreted it as "Elvhen such as you, even if your mortal companions here now nothing of it?" But that may be just me being bitter for not having the option to say "HAH! I knew all that 'I saw it on the Fade' was bullshit" 

Mayriya, I'm curious on this one, why do you think that's the moment Abelas recognized Solas? You think Solas hid it until then or it just took Abelas some time? 

 

6) I'd say that's Solas old guilt; elves listening to him or even being led by him seemed to have disastrous consequences, so he doesn't think that none that remembers what happened (and Abelas must know for sure) would listen to what he has to say. Either that or it's to keep his hobo elf act: I'm just a poor elf that spends his days wandering the Fade, why would an ancient sentinel listen to me? I'm more inclined on the latter.

 

7) This has been discussed over on the Solas thread, and I quite agree with what people said: modern people of Thedas are less real to Solas than ancient elves. As he repeats again and again, not even modern elves are his people. But if they are real, if they are viewed as individual people worthy of love from ancient beings as Lavellan is, and they are eventually harmed by whatever Solas is planning; then it changes everything, because his guilt is greater, and nothing, because Solas has made it very clear that nothing will stop him from doing what he feels is his unescapable duty. 

 

8) In connection to 1, if ancient elves were part Fade beings and able to shapeshift (at least we know the creators shapeshifted into dragons), looks must be not important to Solas. He definitely thinks Lavellan is beautiful, but what matters is that she has a unique spirit. 

 

 

I have something of my own to add; by reading all the lore discussed here and the Solas thread, I am almost conviced that the elves of the Dales were the slaves that Solas (or the events put in motion by him, or the creators infighting, I'm not sure about this one) led to rebellion. And that the Dalish are descendants of those elves, that's why they are still wearing vallaslin. Do you agree on this? And what role do you think the sentinels on temples like Mythal's and Dirthamen's played? I don't see Abelas just sitting on his hands while his world is falling apart; but I don't see him and the sentinels just leaving the temple empty. 

[Tielis]

I have something of my own to add; by reading all the lore discussed here and the Solas thread, I am almost conviced that the elves of the Dales were the slaves that Solas (or the events put in motion by him, or the creators infighting, I'm not sure about this one) led to rebellion. And that the Dalish are descendants of those elves, that's why they are still wearing vallaslin. Do you agree on this? And what role do you think the sentinels on temples like Mythal's and Dirthamen's played? I don't see Abelas just sitting on his hands while his world is falling apart; but I don't see him and the sentinels just leaving the temple empty. 

 

I agree with this, and I think that those slaves were the ones who killed Mythal and other nobles, like Felassan tells us in "The Masked Empire".  And if this uprising was Fen'Harel's fault, well, that's an awful lot of guilt to be carrying around, for sure.

[Babelas]

Hello everyone! I hope you are having a great weekend. It's so wonderful to come in from a day out and see all the discussion. I've read through all the comments. Just wanted to make some contribute with some of my weird observations

I'm in for Abelas as a LI for DA4 too! and thanks all for not spoiling this last DLC! (my hand is itching to google what has been datamined, but I will be strong! I want it to hit me as it comes when I play it!)

Since you are talking/theorizing about the nature of Elvhens, I leave these thoughts here that i'm trying to connect but failing to do so

 

1) After Tom, when you speak to Solas, he says that the 'creators' as Dalish call them were not gods, but powerful mages or spirits or something we have never seen before (I'm betting on the latter one)

2) During Cole's mission, Solas says one cannot change his nature by simply wishing it, and immediately averts his look from Varric, looking at quizzy (or maybe not looking at her, but recalling/remembering something that contradicts what just said?)

3) If you make Cole more human he says in a banter that he never expected to see it (spirit made human), and Cole says "when did you see it again?" which he of course denies, saying that Cole misheard his thoughts (maybe they are powerful spirits that changed their nature? or maybe that how they lost their immortality?)

4) If you meet Kieran as an elf, he says "your blood is very old [..] why do you want to look like this?" (ehmm meaning I could look like something else if i wanted?)

5) During ToM, when Abelas says to Solas "Elvhen such as you?" I get the feeling that he knows who Solas really is, there is a slight bitterness in his voice when he says so (or that how it sounded to me ).

6) Again during ToM, when you first meet the sentinels and talk to them, Solas watches the conversation by looking at quizzy and Abelas when they are talking. But when quizzy asks him to say something to convince them, he answers some sorts of "why would they listen to me?" and for the rest of the convo he looks at the floor, remembering (?) and being sad.

7) There is a banter between Solas and Cole, where Cole says "you are real, everyone could be real, this changes everything, and nothing" (something like that). Everyone seems to think Cole referes to quizzy, but what if that "you are real" refers to Cole himself? He is a spirit made "real" material being.

8) During the break up scene, Solas says to quizzy that she has "a marvelous and bright spirit" and "in another world, not this one". sounds very much what a spirit (or something we have never seen till now) would say?

 

If someone has an insight, I'll gladly listen!

Hang in there! Not long now! It will be all the more sweeter when you experience firsthand and not from spoilers. All wonderful points. I enjoyed reading them

 

I've always believed that the Elvhen pantheon was part of the lore where they refer to the Maker's first children. The Dragon Age universe borrows from Tolkien in areas. Tolkien's elves were known as the first children and humans the second children. Before Tolkien's elves were awoken, the seven gods helped bring the world into being. I think the Elvhen pantheon is the first children that we see in DA lore. Those spirits that the Maker created but then decided he wanted something different and lcreated elves and humans. I keep wondering if we will find out that this Elvhen pantheon was comprised of the spirits charged with teaching the elves or if they fell in love with the Maker's new creation and decided to teach them. I think the Elvhen pantheon started off as guides to the elves and then I think once Andruil entered the Void they became corrupt over time. My current theory is that the Void was created as a mockery of the world by spirits jealous of those who were named Creators by the elves. The Forgotten Ones wanted to control the Elvhen instead of teaching them. The Void became their domain and represents the fall from paradise and loss of innocence. It's my weird guess.

 

But when quizzy asks him to say something to convince them, he answers some sorts of "why would they listen to me?" and for the rest of the convo he looks at the floor, remembering (?) and being sad.

 

I noticed that look! There was guilt going on there. Now why Solas was guilty I'm uncertain. Maybe he hated Inky seeing the life of the sentinels. It has to be painful to see people he tried to help to freedom still bound in servitude. Maybe Solas had his own sentinels just like Mythal and he is ashamed of being reminded. But I do agree there was something odd with that exchange.

 

Oh I think Abelas is annoyed with Solas if for no other reason than the fact he caused a big mess all over Elvhendom. But Abelas is really a product of slavery and at that point in time he is simply not able to see past his duty to the bigger questions. I still haven't forgiven Flemythal for leaving those sentinels in that temple.

 

I wonder if Solas can see her spirit, like her actual aura or something. I agree with what another person said that for Solas it isn't about physical looks. He loves Lavellan for who she is not her side benefits (that's why he calls them side benefits) 

 

This is all awesome stuff that I love to talk about.

 

Here are some of my thoughts on a couple of the things about some of these things.

 

1. I think the Pantheon was a mixture of all three. What I'm really curious to see is what are "things we have never seen. " Would be awesome if they explain that in this upcoming DLC>

 

4, I think Kieran is actually referring to the vallaslin here. We all know romanced Lavellans find out from Solas that the vallaslin were slave markings. Could be wrong, but it's just what I think.

 

5. I actually think thisis the moment that Abelas realizes Solas is an ancient elf like him. I know I am the minority on this, but I don't think ABelas recognizes Solas at all until that exact exchange. The main reason I feel this way is just based on the Abelas' demeanor following that exchange. He relaxes a lot after Solas' reply of "Yes, elvhen such as I." Once again, could be wrong. Only time will tell on this one.

 

Everything else I'm just sitting around waiting for more light on the subject.

 

Soon. Tuesday.

 

Answers......hopefully.

I'll die if none of this answered. If we have to wait another two years for more info I'm going to go camp in front of BW's headquarters begging for the answers instead of change.

 

Yes I'm eager for answers too, although I dont want everything explained I like this mystery, and the puzzle pieces we are trying to connect, if there is to be a DA4, there should be some mystery left for that

 

About 4) I dont think its about the vallaslin, because he says to a qunari quizzy "your blood doeas not belong to your people" so Im guessing he is referring to the origins of the race probably (qunari having dragonblood maybe, if what Iron Bull says stands true)

Agreed! I don't think they will answer everything. But I just want enough to understand that exchange in the temple with Abelas. I wonder if Kieran is referring to how spirits look in the Fade as opposed to their grotesque form outside of it. I wonder if once in the Fade an elf can imagine themselves differently.

 

I love the thought of Solas being a former slave raised to Semi-God, and thats how he knows how to remove Vallaslin, this could be why Abelas did not abase himself when he recognised Fen'Harel.

I don't think Abelas is too happy with Solas. If he was going to blame someone for the current state of the world it would be the Dread Wolf. Yes, he says the Elvhen warred on each other but the root of that was probably having the gods locked away. Perhaps Abelas wasn't swayed by Solas's rebellious solution to the problem of the gods. I'm not sure. But the weird thing about Solas is that he had that ability to walk between the pantheon and the Forgotten Ones and I want to know why. Was he a bit of both or something that was constructed by Mythal? I really want more information about his relationship with Mythal too.

 

1 & 3) I'm with MayriyaNoori here, I also think they were a mixture of the three. Maybe they were like Cole in a sense, that they are spirits or some other beings in the Fade made material. That same connection with the Fade would be why magic was "part of being elf", as Solas says.

 

4) Before reading Mayriya comment, I thought this referred to the fact that elves were able to shapeshift at some time. But now I think it makes a lot of sense that Kieran is referring to the vallaslin.

 

5) I interpreted it as "Elvhen such as you, even if your mortal companions here now nothing of it?" But that may be just me being bitter for not having the option to say "HAH! I knew all that 'I saw it on the Fade' was bullshit" 

Mayriya, I'm curious on this one, why do you think that's the moment Abelas recognized Solas? You think Solas hid it until then or it just took Abelas some time? 

 

6) I'd say that's Solas old guilt; elves listening to him or even being led by him seemed to have disastrous consequences, so he doesn't think that none that remembers what happened (and Abelas must know for sure) would listen to what he has to say. Either that or it's to keep his hobo elf act: I'm just a poor elf that spends his days wandering the Fade, why would an ancient sentinel listen to me? I'm more inclined on the latter.

 

7) This has been discussed over on the Solas thread, and I quite agree with what people said: modern people of Thedas are less real to Solas than ancient elves. As he repeats again and again, not even modern elves are his people. But if they are real, if they are viewed as individual people worthy of love from ancient beings as Lavellan is, and they are eventually harmed by whatever Solas is planning; then it changes everything, because his guilt is greater, and nothing, because Solas has made it very clear that nothing will stop him from doing what he feels is his unescapable duty. 

 

8) In connection to 1, if ancient elves were part Fade beings and able to shapeshift (at least we know the creators shapeshifted into dragons), looks must be not important to Solas. He definitely thinks Lavellan is beautiful, but what matters is that she has a unique spirit. 

 

 

I have something of my own to add; by reading all the lore discussed here and the Solas thread, I am almost conviced that the elves of the Dales were the slaves that Solas (or the events put in motion by him, or the creators infighting, I'm not sure about this one) led to rebellion. And that the Dalish are descendants of those elves, that's why they are still wearing vallaslin. Do you agree on this? And what role do you think the sentinels on temples like Mythal's and Dirthamen's played? I don't see Abelas just sitting on his hands while his world is falling apart; but I don't see him and the sentinels just leaving the temple empty. 

I wonder if Abelas figured it out once Solas cast magic. Have this strange feeling that Elvhen magic is very different from regular magic. Solas is going to know how to accurately draw from the Fade and his methods are unique compared to the modern mage. I'm thinking of that conversation he has with Dorian and Dorian attributes the method to Tevinter, when in fact, it is elven or rather Elvhen. According to Dragon Age Heroes game, Abelas is a mage. He's going to feel that difference and recognize Elvhen magic immediately, in my opinion. 

 

Abelas says he shut the doors to the sanctuary, so I took that to mean that when Elvhenan really began to fall he locked the sentinels away for good and slept.

 

I agree with this, and I think that those slaves were the ones who killed Mythal and other nobles, like Felassan tells us in "The Masked Empire".  And if this uprising was Fen'Harel's fault, well, that's an awful lot of guilt to be carrying around, for sure.

There was someone on reddit who came up with this theory about Mythal's murderer. He was talking about how there are these pictures that depict Mythal taking vengeance on Dirthamen and I think basically killing him because he was killing elves in droves. I need to go find the link. But basically, it was suggested that there was a divide in the pantheon and lines were drawn. So I'm wondering if there was an all out war between the Elvhen or if they plotted and killed Mythal and then Solas locked them away so that they were not able to keep killing each other.

[Abelis]

Nice! Many things here I havent considered. Thanks all

[Vorathrad]

Regarding DA borrowing from Tolkien, I find it curious that according to the Silmarillion the earth was created from the songs of the Ainur, and that there are so many living things in the DA universe that sing (lyrium, the Old Gods, the song darkspawn hear)

[Tielis]

Regarding DA borrowing from Tolkien, I find it curious that according to the Silmarillion the earth was created from the songs of the Ainur, and that there are so many living things in the DA universe that sing (lyrium, the Old Gods, the song darkspawn hear)

 

Yes, I think lyrium really is the primordial essence of Thedas.  And *really* bad news when it gets corrupted.  But was it corrupted by the elves using it to magically create the world they wanted for themselves, or was it something else?

[MayriyaNoori]

@ Vorathrad

 

To answer your question, I believe Abelas recognizes Solas as an ancient elf once Solas says "Yes, elvhen such as I." Like I said, I know I'm the minority on this and really my reasoning is largely based on reading into reactions and manners during the Temple scenes.

 

First, l would like to point out that there is not a single elf depiction of Fen'harel anywhere so far in the game. The only two explanations I can think of to explain this are A.) This was done on purpose to keep his identiti hush hush or B.) Fen'Harel originally was not an elf. Maybe a spirit that took shape into the real world in the same way Cole did.

 

It is possible that high ranking elves in Elvhenan society saw Fen'harel in his true form, but that does not necessarily mean Abelas ever did.

 

Now we take a look at the first scene where everyone meets each other. Abelas first speaks in ancient elvish but then switches to the modern tongue. I would imagine that if he did recognize Solas that he would have said more than "Venavis". In fact, he may have even said a kinder greeting. I don't know if it has ever been translated,....but it's doesn't really come off super friendly. It sounds more like interrogating.....like a "Where are you going?" or a harsh "Stop where you are". "Ven" does mean "to go" and 'na' means 'your' according to the wiki so who really knows.

 

You would think that if he recognized the Dread Wolf walking into Mythal's Temple he would have been far more receptive to the group. Even if he didn't want to give away the identity of Solas, he still would have been far more hospitable.

 

Another point from this scene is the fact that Abelas does recognize the magic in the Anchor.....Fen'Harel's magic......unless Solas stole that from somebody. However, despite someone walking in the door with the mark of Fen'Harel's magic on them and Fen'harel stranding right next to them...Abelas still is defensive and hesitant to an alliance...and even after the alliance is made Abelas says you have to leave immediately and never return. I don't think he would tell the Dread Wolf he is never allowed to return....when Mythal placed a mini shrine to him in her own temple.

 

And the final clue to me is the way Solas acts in this scene. You can have the special dialog option to ask Solas to speak to Abelas to try and convince him and Solas avoids it all together. He says something about how shared blood is not going to sway someone who has been serving for a millennium and then defends Abelas' stance with a statement that truly reflect how Solas feels. It's even after this that Abelas says basically "We'll help you kill the enemy, but you best be on your way afterwards." I just don't think Abelas would speak like this with the Dread Wolf in the room.

 

Then you move on to the next scene. Abelas is still adamant that no one should drink from the Well and that your group should let him destroy it. Why? Because as Solas mentioned in the previous scene this is all Abelas has to hold on to the past he misses so dearly and in that moment he has no idea what he would do with it gone. Then Solas steps in and drops a bit of knowledge to Abelas by saying "There are other places, friend, other duties, your people yet linger." This draws the attention of Abelas and he ask "Elvhen such as you?" followed by Solas replying in a very elvish manner "Yes, elvhen such as I."

 

Abelas is automatically more relaxed and open about the entire situation from that point. He explains the Well and is at the point willing to let you drink from it. He even let's you know the price for all the knowledge of the Well. The big difference at that moment is that Solas has made clear to him that he is an ancient elf like him and that just because the Well is lost doesn't mean Abelas can't go help somewhere.

 

Then you finish out the scene with Abelas walking out like he's on the cat walk. And drool on the keyboard.

 

My whole opinion is largely based on reading in between lines and mannerisms. And I am totally ready to accept that it is wrong if ever outright stated so in game because I can see one point that would explain why Abelas would act the way he did towards Fen"harel and company. That one point could be the influence of Mythal. She is friends with Solas....but that doesn't mean that she wants him in her Temple at that given moment and if for whatever reason she didn't....then Abelas would be cold and and unfriendly towards him.

 

Answers though......soon.

 

Tuesday.

[d1ta]

Hey MayriyaNoori, I'm trully loving your snippets (and the thought of Abelas cracking a smile.. d'awww... I don't think that Thedas is capableof taking that amount of heartfelt and cuteness)

Nice to know that I'm not the only one thinking that Abelas has no clue to whom he was talking to when facing Solas.
Partly because it IS Fen'harel we're talking about and he is a crafty character. Abelas might mistaken Solas for another sentinel on some weird mission at best, or just some highly respectable elvhen 'somebody' but not Fen'harel.
I feel that Inqy ad co was the perfect cover up for the Dread Wolf: There's no way a dirty elf shem is deemed respectable enough to be in the presence of either Pantheon , not to mention that it is the shem that has been barking orders and not Solas. That fellow ancient dude is Fenharel?? Nawh. Couldn't be.

(Been away long. Nice to see this comfy part of bsn is still alive and kicking )

Btw just a thought that crossed my mind. Could it be that it was the murder of Mythal that sent Fen'harel go batsh*t insane and go: "That's it, you people (pantheon and forgotten ones) has done too much damage already! 'Time out' for all of you!" (remembering that Fenharel and Mythal are buddies)
Just my 2 cents ^^v peace ^^v

Edit: typos. Typing on mobile. Ugh

[Babelas]

Vorathrad... yay Tolkien people! I'm used to getting the raised eyebrow of 'what the hell are you talking about?' when I bring Tolkien into the discussion. Yes, I noticed too that song is playing a role in the ancient aspects of the game. Flemythal mentions it all the time. Anything tainted by red lyrium mentions it and Cole as well. 

 

Yes, I think lyrium really is the primordial essence of Thedas.  And *really* bad news when it gets corrupted.  But was it corrupted by the elves using it to magically create the world they wanted for themselves, or was it something else?

Yep I agree.

 

MayriyaNoori, I know in the dev notes that someone datamined from Inquisition (not Trespasser) that originally that anchor belonged to Mythal. I think they changed that to Fen'Harel's later, but I wonder if the voice acting was already complete before they changed their minds, and, therefore, Abelas would have recognized it as Mythal's anchor? I know at the end Flemythal tells the Dread Wolf he shouldn't have given his orb to Cory. But I still wonder to this day if that orb originally came from Mythal because I still wonder if the Dread Wolf was raised up by Mythal into the pantheon. When I read the codex about Mythal and Elgar'nan they sound like full on gods compared to the rest of the pantheon. 

 

Maybe all will be revealed tomorrow. I am still undecided about buying the dlc straight away. If I knew Abelas was in it, I wouldn't think twice. I suppose getting it for the lore alone is worth it.

[Vorathrad]

Just to clarify, I don't think Abelas recognized Solas as Fen'Harel, but as another ancient elf. Anyway, tomorrow we'll be getting some answers (and I have to wait until I get home from work )

Edit to add: really cool scene by scene analysis, MayriyaNoori, thanks for explaining your point of view!

Discussion here has been so lovely that it inspired me to do a little Abelas piece. Using this pic as reference, I tried to imagine him without hood and turned it into a little shading exercise. I don't usually share my drawings outside of my safe internet areas, but you are all so nice I want you to see what this thread has inspired (please be gentle, I'm a rookie!)

Spoiler

@Babelas I wasn't sure about getting the DLC straight after launch... but after seeing Solas, I think my Lavellan would get out of the screen to slap me if I didn't

Modifié par Vorathrad, 07 septembre 2015 - 08:21 .

[Babelas]

Vorathrad that's a wonderful drawing! Thank you so much for sharing it with us! I love the shape of his ears, his nose and the style of his hair. Makes me want to imagine my Inky braiding it for him in the morning She'd love that. Also imagining him with no shirt now lolol see what you did!

 

I'm having the same feelings. I want some sort of closure for my Lavellan but there is a part of me that is going to be heartbroken if there is no Abelas or if they do something weird with him. 

[Babelas]

Double post! Ooops

[Vorathrad]

Oohhh and thank you Babelas, so happy you like my drawing! Abelas has that same effect on me; in fact, I must admit to unholy thoughts while looking at the reference pic 

[Babelas]

I'm nervous... why am I nervous? Chances of Abelas in this dlc are slim and yet I worry... I decided my Inky needs closure even if I do not. Right... hehehe

 

Bring it Bioware!        

[Abelas Forever!]

Vorathrad that's a lovely picture!

[Abelas Forever!]

So Solas had decided to train his thighs Maybe he asked some advices from Abelas If there would be a thigh contest between Solas and Abelas I bet it would be tight. I would say Abelas would win because he showed his thighs first!

[Babelas]

Abelas would win. He's taller and has more thigh lolol. When I saw Solas in the armor all I could think was sardine I liked the top half of Solas's look but no the bottom. It just didn't suit his legs. I felt his original hobo bottoms showed off his rear better. 

 

Well.. that was not what I was expecting. But I have to say I love Abelas even more now after what was revealed about Mythal. 

 

Spoiler

 

I don't think those sentinels were Mythal's sentinels and I truly hope Abelas doesn't agree with Solas's insane plan even if my Inky was kind of for it. My Lavellan Inky was a bit insane.

 

I'm also not convinced Solas's plan was Mythal's plan. I'm going to guess Abelas would support whatever Mythal had in mind. I guess even if that means the end of everyone but the Elvhen. It has some disturbing overtones like... oh I don't know... Nazis? I'm hoping it doesn't continue with the mass genocide theme, or rather, we get the chance to help Solas find a different way to help his people. It's too drastic. 

 

[Vorathrad]

Thank you, Silent Shadows! And yes, Solas definitely has been to Abelas spinning lessons! But as much as I love Solas, I must say... Abelas rocks dat armour so much better 

[Abelas Forever!]

Spoiler

I don't believe either that those sentinels were Mythal's sentinels. I think they were spirits who Solas woke up to fight. I believe they used to be sentinels a long time ago but I guess the original sentinels died and only their spirits are left.

I think Solas' plan is a very bad idea because it's not worth to kill everybody in Thedas so that elves can rule again. For some reason Solas is convinced that it's the only way and he needs to restore what once was. I think he is wrong and mistaken. The elven empire wasn't a good place to be. I think he might have wanted to help those ancient slaves so much and I believe he succeeded in it because he was able to create that army of slaves. Although his intentions were good but the other "gods" didn't approve. Of course because he was freeing their slaves. When he get more power it might have led to the point where other gods needed more power to defeat him and maybe that lead to the situation where they decided to kill Mythal because she was Solas' favourite and by killing her they would get her power and deal damage to Solas as well because he would lose his ally. Anyway his intentions for freeing the slaves were good but they also had bad consequences. I think he might have wanted to revenge Mythal's death and that's why he created the veil. He also believed that the other solutions were even worse. I think he might haven't been objective in that matter because of his anger. I believe that he led his emotions overshadow his judgement. I also believe that he was part of the problem in ancient times because he had power and he used it to good cause. Well his cause was good but he also shook the power balance by his actions and that also lead to suffering. I'm not sure does he see that. I think his guilt might make him to be so determined to restore that time again but better than it was. Maybe he thinks that restoring everything will be worth all the sacrifices he must make. I think he should deal with his failures and mistakes instead of trying to make everything better at any cost. I'm also afraid of this because he has caused so much pain and suffering by his actions that I'm not sure can he ever recover from that completely. It's much easier to sacrifice himself for a good cause than seeing that his cause isn't that good.

About Nazis. I'm not an expert on that subject but I think Nazis wanted to purge the world from those that weren't pure and they thought that certain people weren't really people at all and because of that they needed to eliminate those. Solas doesn't value the people in this world but he also wants them to be free before he must do the inevitable and destroy this world. Solas doesn't want to destroy this world but he also thinks that he can't restore the ancient elven empire and at the same time let this world survive. His motives are different than Nazis.

I have been thinking Mythal. It seemed that she had plans of her own. Maybe she could guess what Solas was going to do and she knew that she couldn't prevent him no matter what she would do so maybe she sacrificed herself so that Solas would get her power but maybe she also had her own plans. Maybe she send her godhood to Morrigan and maybe Morrigan can try to prevent Solas from destroying the world.

I'm not sure how free Abelas was when he became sentinel. I think he might have agreed to be bound to Mythal. If that's true then it makes sense that he doesn't like the Dalish because Dalish are worshipping the elven gods not knowing that they are worshipping tyrants. However I'm not sure how much Abelas knows. Does he know that the gods aren't really gods? Even though Mythal was the best of the gods it could have been that she didn't tell the truth about the gods to her followers. She might have been the best of the gods because the other gods were much worse than she but I don't believe that she was like really good god. I mean those sentinels are bound to her after all and not free.

If Solas' actions led to the situation where Mythal was killed then it makes sense that Abelas isn't happy at Solas at the Temple. I think that could also explain why Solas behaviour in that Temple is so weird. I mean he doesn't want to convince the sentinels to co-operate and he looks guilty and ashamed when he speaks to Abelas.

The whole immortality thing bothers me. Solas created the veil and by creating that the elves become mortal. What does that mean? It seems that he is still immortal and Abelas and the sentinels are still immortal. Well at least they have been sleeping quite long time. But if the Veil is the reason then how have they managed to not become mortal? Or is it because they are in places where the Veil is thin? In ancient times Solas also wanted to be seen as mortal instead of a god. What does that even mean? He was immortal and mortal at the same time    I think I'll have to think about this more. Maybe immortality had a different meaning in elven empire.

I have been thinking that one of my Lavellan might support Solas' plan. I'm not sure yet. I think she might think that destroying this world is worth it if it brings back the elven glory days. Anyway my other Lavellan is trying to change his mind and save the world and her lover. The romance makes me so sad. They both love each other so much but they can't be together because he is so stubborn!  Hopefully some day they can finally be together. I think there is hope! and as long as there is hope my Lavellans won't give up! I really hope that some day they can be together. If that day will come I'm going to cry like a baby! Please make it happen!

By the way Leliana told you that people have seen strange elves in Tirashan and they have looked like those in Mythal's temple. So maybe Abelas is in Tirashan with his sentinels!!! I was so excited to hear this!

[FernRain]

Spoiler

By the way Leliana told you that people have seen strange elves in Tirashan and they have looked like those in Mythal's temple. So maybe Abelas is in Tirashan with his sentinels!!! I was so excited to hear this!

 

Hold on, when did she say that? I like hearing about the Tirashan Elves .

[Abelas Forever!]

Hold on, when did she say that? I like hearing about the Tirashan Elves .

Spoiler

After you have been in  the crossroads you can talk to people and if you talk with Leliana you can ask her about news. She then says that there are strange elves in Tirashan but no news of Solas. I have always allied with Abelas and the sentinels so I don't know what happens if you have killed him. I actually would like to know does it affect on that line. Although it's not known whether they are the same sentinels but they could be!

 

Morrigan has also disappeared so maybe she is with the sentinels!

[Babelas]

Spoiler

 

Okay bad choice of words... maybe. Solas does believe his race to be superior (they do have superior thighs). He didn't even see the others as people o.O He is also still intent on genocide. I hate the word so... I'll go with ethnocentrism --  individuals judge other groups relative to their own ethnic group or culture, especially with concern for language, behavior, customs, and religion.

 

Anyway, point is that Solas has lost his marbles. Well... he hasn't lost them and my main Lavellan supports him. She is all for it. Just needs to convince the egg to let her help. What I don't understand is why everyone would die if the veil is dropped? Does Solas mean they will die from the chaos of having the two worlds collide or... ? I really don't get that part. I mean if people won't actually physically die then why not gather all the elves together and ensure their safety? And where are all the elves going? See, I have this theory that humans live elsewhere just like the original Quanari live elsewhere. Once the veil was in place it allowed humans to easily enter Thedas. I'm thinking the veil was only in place over Thedas not the rest of the world during the time of the elves because of the effect it has on humans.

 

As for our golden friend... lots of things make sense now. You come into his temple wearing the vallaslin of the gods who slew Mythal. In his eyes you are the enemy. You wear Mythal's vallaslin but you have no idea who Mythal is and was. It's all a very bad memory of a day he probably failed to protect her, if he was there. Since he says he saw Mythal in her fullness, I'm going to guess Abelas was there. No wonder he sounds so pained in that codex. I also understand why he sounds annoyed when speaking with Solas. I suspect he holds him somewhat accountable for Mythal's murder. It's not fair but Abelas isn't rational when it comes to Mythal.

 

I don't think Abelas understands that the gods were not gods. I think once Mythal was murdered, the temple doors shut and he made it his duty to protect the well from even the Evanuris (I get to use the new fancy word!) The rebellion wasn't something he attended, I suspect. I doubt he even knew about it until it started in earnest. Abelas didn't get the memo in other words. Mythal died and he sought to protect the very last of her. It's sooooooooooo sad. Great unrequited love story though. I bet she was beautiful. I just love Mythal. She's my favorite of the pantheon. 

 

Abelas says that Mythal never gave anything for free. My guess is that those who came to her for help had to give something in return if she deemed them worthy of help. I also suspect that she used her popularity to help, and that meant that she had to pretend to be a god too. If she went around telling the elves she was not a god, she would have lost the power and means to help the elves, or maybe it all went to her head in the beginning, but I do not believe she was ever cruel. Obviously, as time went by, Mythal opposed the others more and more. I suspect she made them look bad with keen fashion sense and witty retorts.

 

I have a new theory. Since Mythal took residence in a human and her daughters are human, I have a funny feeling Mythal would not approve of Solas's plan. Could it be that Morrigan rises up to challenge Solas? As I understand it, Solas summoned Flemeth and she had to appear. She knew he was going to take her power and I suspect she had no choice but to let him have it. But! She was sneaky and gave the godhood to Morrigan. I'm wondering if Flemeth has been training and educating her daughters for the day Solas returns with his bat crap crazy plans. Dude is super crazy powerful now. Mythal seems to be the only hope of stopping him if she doesn't agree with his plan. If she does agree...  there is no stopping Solas. It will take an Elvhen to fight an Elvhen.

 

I laughed when I saw that line about the Tirashan. When I was writing my story I had to come up with a place for Sylaise's temple. I chose the Tirashan. I looked at the map of Thedas and I noticed these clusters of forests like the Arbor Wilds. There is also Arlathan Forest and another one near Kirkwall (can't remember the name) and then there is the Tirashan. That forest has interesting lore surrounding it. So I guessed that any one of these forests there is probably some temple dedicated to one of the pantheon and it possibly remains untouched just like ToM. Solas said that Abelas may try to find more temples. My guess is that is exactly what he is doing. 

 

What are you going to do SilentShadows if Solas is opposed by Abelas and Morrigan? Who are you going to back in that fight?

[Abelas Forever!]

Spoiler

Well Solas isn't actually planning on killing everybody because of who they are or because he thinks that he and his people are superior. His mission has just some bad side effects. Really bad side effects. I'm just trying to say that he doesn't want to destroy this world but he sees that there is no other way. Anyway I don't wish to argue about Solas but I also don't think that genocide or ethnocentrism depicts Solas and his actions. But I see where you are coming from Babelas I just think that Solas might be too blind for other solutions and that's why he thinks that this world needs to end. The other possibility might be that there is no other way. Either he chooses this world or the other world.

It's not said why everybody would die. Maybe the writers don't know the answer yet   That's why Solas doesn't tell you if you ask it from him I think one possibility could be that the modern people can't handle the situation when Veil is not there anymore. Maybe they will die from the shock. I think Solas said that people in this world seemed like they are tranquil. If that's true then maybe the situation when the Veil isn't there is too much for people to handle because all the emotions and sensations are so much stronger and that will destroy them.

If Abelas also sees that modern people as well as modern elves are like tranquils then it might make him angry. Maybe it reminds him that the world was so much better place before the Veil. This could also explain why Abelas doesn't think that these elves are his people because they have changed completely. Maybe his emotions are also so much stronger than emotions of modern elves so he really doesn't understand the modern world anymore.

It's very interesting that the elves have disappeared. It's also interesting that they are helping Solas even if they will die. Maybe they believe that their sacrifice is worth it if the elven empire will come back even if it means that they can't see it. Or Solas has tricked them.

I don't believe either that Abelas participated in that rebellion because he still has his vallaslin. Now that I think about his situation more I'm starting to be quite sure that Mythal didn't tell him that she really wasn't a god.

I think it seems likely that Morrigan will be the one who will try to stop Solas or at least that could have been Mythal's plan. I think Morrigan might also try to find those sentinels from the Mythal's temple. I think that makes sense because they were her mother's guardians. When Abelas would find out who Morrigan truly is I think he might help her and maybe Morrigan would send him to help my DA4 PC

Babelas! No! I don't want to choose between Abelas and Solas! NO!! Why can't I have both? Anyway if I have a world state where my Inquisitor had romanced Solas then I would choose Solas and if my inquisitor romanced somebody else and my DA4 PC romanced Abelas then I will choose Abelas.

About immortality. Solas said that Corypheus had find out how to be immortal and that was his way to be able hop on a different body. I don't think that ancient elves did that but it's interesting view on immortality. I'll have to think about it more because immortality bothers me and I think that there is something that I don't see. If ancient elves would have used the same mechanism then it would be possible for Abelas to hop on a different body and survive Although I don't know if that would be a good thing because then the other person would perish and I don't want that to happen.

Modifié par SilentShadows, 11 septembre 2015 - 08:21 .

[Babelas]

Spoiler

Well Solas isn't actually planning on killing everybody because of who they are or because he thinks that he and his people are superior. His mission has just some bad side effects. Really bad side effects. I'm just trying to say that he doesn't want to destroy this world but he sees that there is no other way. Anyway I don't wish to argue about Solas but I also don't think that genocide or ethnocentrism depicts Solas and his actions. But I see where you are coming from Babelas I just think that Solas might be too blind for other solutions and that's why he thinks that this world needs to end. The other possibility might be that there is no other way. Either he chooses this world or the other world.

It's not said why everybody would die. Maybe the writers don't know the answer yet   That's why Solas doesn't tell you if you ask it from him I think one possibility could be that the modern people can't handle the situation when Veil is not there anymore. Maybe they will die from the shock. I think Solas said that people in this world seemed like they are tranquil. If that's true then maybe the situation when the Veil isn't there is too much for people to handle because all the emotions and sensations are so much stronger and that will destroy them.

If Abelas also sees that modern people as well as modern elves are like tranquils then it might make him angry. Maybe it reminds him that the world was so much better place before the Veil. This could also explain why Abelas doesn't think that these elves are his people because they have changed completely. Maybe his emotions are also so much stronger than emotions of modern elves so he really doesn't understand the modern world anymore.

It's very interesting that the elves have disappeared. It's also interesting that they are helping Solas even if they will die. Maybe they believe that their sacrifice is worth it if the elven empire will come back even if it means that they can't see it. Or Solas has tricked them.

I don't believe either that Abelas participated in that rebellion because he still has his vallaslin. Now that I think about his situation more I'm starting to be quite sure that Mythal didn't tell him that she really wasn't a god.

I think it seems likely that Morrigan will be the one who will try to stop Solas or at least that could have been Mythal's plan. I think Morrigan might also try to find those sentinels from the Mythal's temple. I think that makes sense because they were her mother's guardians. When Abelas would find out who Morrigan truly is I think he might help her and maybe Morrigan would send him to help my DA4 PC

Babelas! No! I don't want to choose between Abelas and Solas! NO!! Why can't I have both? Anyway if I have a world state where my Inquisitor had romanced Solas then I would choose Solas and if my inquisitor romanced somebody else and my DA4 PC romanced Abelas then I will choose Abelas.

About immortality. Solas said that Corypheus had find out how to be immortal and that was his way to be able hop on a different body. I don't think that ancient elves did that but it's interesting view on immortality. I'll have to think about it more because immortality bothers me and I think that there is something that I don't see. If ancient elves would have used the same mechanism then it would be possible for Abelas to hop on a different body and survive Although I don't know if that would be a good thing because then the other person would perish and I don't want that to happen.

Spoiler

 I get that you love the character. I completely understand. For all I know Abelas shares Solas's view of the world. I find it all completely heartbreaking to be honest. . But nothing justifies what Solas wants to do. It's wrong. He either needs to find a new solution, have his mind changed or die. Sorry, sad but true. We may be faced with killing Solas and Abelas if he is still alive.

 

I think that Solas says they would die from the chaos. So I don't know that everyone would die but I think the mass panic would definitely cause many deaths. Humans also cannot handle the Fade like the elves. That's why I believe the veil is only over Thedas (at a guess) Or it could be as you say that it would all be too much for them.

 

I just wish Solas would find a way to bring back a small part of the empire as opposed to all of Thedas. I hope there is a solution and that part of the empire can be brought back but not at the expense of lives. I don't want Solas to become Anders the sequel. I hated what happened to Anders.

 

When Abelas would find out who Morrigan truly is I think he might help her and maybe Morrigan would send him to help my DA4 PC 

 

I hope so too! Plus, I would love to have Morrigan and Abelas as companions especially if she attempted to kill him and it didn't work. That would be too funny.

 

One thing that made me smile was when Solas said that his people do not die so easily. So there is hope for Abelas. Ah I think the big brute lived.

 

Solas doesn't strike me as the sharing kind  

[Vorathrad]

Spoiler

The more I think about the glorious banters Morrigan and murderknife!Abelas would produce, the more I like the idea 

 

Purple sentinels in the Crossroads are definitely guardian spirits assigned by Solas to defend the place; I don't know if you have to drink from the Well to hear it, but my Lavellan did and she explained it. 

 

After Trespasser, I'm quite sure Abelas was on the opposite side of Solas regarding the rebellion. As Silent pointed out, he still has his vallaslin. And we know that elven slaves went to Solas to have their vallaslin removed; Abelas didn't and his greatest sorrow seems to stem from losing his life at the Temple, presumably because of the changes brought about by the Veil. So it seems he didn't agree with what Solas was doing and has lost everything because of its consequences. Definitely some tension on that encounter at the Temple.

 

I don't like stories that turn every bond between a male and a female into a romantic relationship, so I don't like the idea of Abelas being in love with Mythal. Solas says that she was the best of the Enavuris (though I'd like to hear their version, I'm sure Mythal had her dark side as well) and that she cared for her people; so it could be simply that Abelas greatly admired Mythal and was happy to devote his life to her service and preserving her knowledge. 

 

What I think drives Solas is mainly guilt. It doesn't make a lot of sense, destroying an entire world so that the few remaining Elvhen have their magic back. And eventually what, elven glory to repopulate? I don't know, it seems that Solas spent a lot of time thinking of how to carry out his plan but not so much about what it would actually bring about. He was devastated for the sacrifice he had to make to save his world (or so he thought) and even more when we awoke to find the world it produced. He's filled with guilt by what he did to his people and he feels the only way to atone for that is undoing it entirely.

 

It's not clear yet, but I think the consequence of removing the Veil is, as Solas himself puts it, raw chaos. Mages overwhelmed with insane amounts of magic, maybe abominations left and right as confused spirits seek physical bodies, everyone fighting the crazy mages... in the middle of that, Elvhen are the only ones prepared to deal with that situation. In fact, they are made to live in a world like that and not a world with Veil, so they would thrive. I can't even imagine what would be of dwarves, going straight from being disconnected from the Fade to being immersed in it. 

 

In the middle of all that, I'm not sure what Abelas would do. I'd doubt he'd be very willing to cooperate with Solas; his main mission, i.e. guarding the Well, is long over, and I don't know if he wants to get involved in bloody fighting just to have magic back in a world that is in ruins nevertheless. On the other hand, he could be tempted by the promise of living something like the good ol' times again. After that ending scene my Lavellan is more madly in love with Solas than ever; but if Abelas decides the modern world deserves to enjoy His Almighty Thighness, a new elven PC of mine will be more than happy to help 

 

The secret to Abelas and Solas seeming immortality (I think it's more of a very extended lifespan) is the Fade. I guess before the Veil Elvhen were not entirely physical beings, so if they were really powerful their spiritual nature prevented them from aging and made them very difficult to kill for good (see Bioware? you gave yourselves a way out of the murderknife for Abelas!) After the Veil was drawn, they used uthenera to draw sustain from the Fade, thus making them more spiritual than physical and thus ageless.