106 réponses à ce sujet

[LoudAngryJerk]

Simple, reduce if not eliminate the barrier generation and remove on hit guard. Make it into a glass cannon if need be, but the defensive skills are over the top.  I am wearing cloth I should not be able to lollerskate a lvl 20 dragon on nightmare solo with 3-4 adds and not have to worry about popping potions or kiting.

 

But this is not the most overpowered class in the game, I still stand by 1h/shield reaver.  That class can have the +6 to guard all the defensive ability and stupid offense.

pretty sure theyre not gonna do that, as the purpose of the spec is clearly intended to be a tank/offtank for mages (just as the tempest is intended to be a tank/off tank for rogues)

[LoudAngryJerk]

...and needs to be nerfed.

 

My level 16 party appears on Dragon Island and sees the level 19 dragon there (this is on Hard difficulty).  Everyone other than Vivienne ends up insta-killed, but then Vivienne goes on to solo the rest of the fight.

 

In addition to insane survivability (Clean Burn + Spirit Blade spam + Fade Shield + Fade Cloak), prior to this fight I had never seen such huge damage numbers appear so often (Spirit Blade's massive bonus against guard meant thousands of damage every other second against this dragon whenever it had its guard up).

 

I mean, I can kinda understand how these things make it out of playtest; it reminds me of when Skullclamp appeared on the scene (and was quickly banned) in Magic: The Gathering (http://magic.wizards...w-ye-2004-06-04). But man, Bioware, if you want to be taken credibly for well-though game design, you need to bring the nerfhammer down on the Knight-Enchanter, hard.

also if you think a non tank knight enchanter does insane damage you should see a non cc rogue assassin, just saying them ****s freaking nuke.

[TristynTrine]

I think it's just boring, most of the mage specs are. But I do like rift mage cause I can stone fist everything. Love that animation to pieces.

[wowitschris]

a few thoughts.

 

1) people comparing this to other potentially powerful classes. that may be, but KE requires literally no forethought, play skill (like managing shield wall to get indefinite guard, which requires some thought), and requires no user effort other than to spam spirit blade over and over, which is boring.

 

2) people saying no need to balance SP => lazy attitude towards game design. i'd like a version of KE that is interesting to play and not just completely inherently invincible. and if no need to balance SP, why not just give literally every tree in the game a god button that auto-kills everything and wins you the game? don't like it? "just don't use it." but that would be both boring (to people who use it) and stupid (for even existing), so obviously some sort of gameplay balance is necessary even when you personally can't see why it matters. so please don't make the lazy argument that SP balance doesn't matter. plus your choices in a game have to be meaningful and not predicated on self-imposed constraints because the game designers messed up.

 

3) as for specific nerf issues, the problem appears to mainly be fade shield. I'm not a game designer so I don't have any specific recommendations, but you take that away and the KE no longer has such mindless invincibility. Maybe a cooldown on how often it can proc or some kind of constraint on when it is allowed to proc, so you can get periodic benefit (maybe even a benefit that you can skillfully maximize, which would lend itself to interesting gameplay), but not enough of a benefit to just walk through all sorts of boss fights you are otherwise underleveled for.

[Cid Revolution]

Normally I agree with this in single player games, but the problem is that even on Nightmare difficulty, it trivializes the entire game the moment you get it and respec into it. While I find the KE spec very interesting, the fact that it turns even the hardest difficulty into a glorified interactive story instead of something of a challenge is just stupid.
 
Because I like to have at least a semblance of challenge in a game and not play an interactive movie, I'm basically excluded from speccing into KE. At least with the Tempest spec, you can choose not to exploit the Flask of Fire bug. I'm not saying it shouldn't be powerful, I'm just saying it shouldn't have survivability  this high. Unlimited health + unlimited mana + ultra short cooldowns = bad class design imho.
 
I'd much rather see the KE spec have rogue- and/or 2H warrior-like squishiness and comparable damage for high risk/reward gameplay instead of the no risk/high reward gameplay it has now.

That's your preference. Don't pretend to speak for everyone. People play games for different reasons. Some, like you, love a challenge. Others like to feel empowered and godlike, while still others want to enjoy the story without having to focus too much on the combat. Gameplay experience is subjective. Please don't suggest that everything in this game should cater to your personal ideal of what a good game should be.

[l3loodpimp]

    Every class has an invincible combo, Knight Enchanter is the most obvious one because it's so early in the tree, but warrior and rogue can also tear **** up if they have the right spec.

    Warrior can be as tanky as the Knight Enchanter, and rogue can literally one shot everything every 20 second (yes even a boss/dragon).  Plus if they were all to be pitted against each other, the mage might be the weakest of the lot.

[BroBear Berbil]

a few thoughts.

 

1) people comparing this to other potentially powerful classes. that may be, but KE requires literally no forethought, play skill (like managing shield wall to get indefinite guard, which requires some thought), and requires no user effort other than to spam spirit blade over and over, which is boring.

 

2) people saying no need to balance SP => lazy attitude towards game design. i'd like a version of KE that is interesting to play and not just completely inherently invincible. and if no need to balance SP, why not just give literally every tree in the game a god button that auto-kills everything and wins you the game? because that would be boring and stupid, so obviously some sort of reasonable gameplay is necessary so don't make the lazy argument that SP balance doesn't matter. plus your choices in a game have to be meaningful and not predicated on self-imposed constraints because the game designers messed up. 

 

3) as for specific nerf issues, the problem appears to mainly be fade shield. I'm not a game designer so I don't have any specific recommendations, but you take that away and the KE no longer has such mindless invincibility. Maybe a cooldown on how often it can proc, so you can get periodic benefit (maybe even a benefit that you can skillfully maximize), but not enough to just walk through all sorts of boss fights you are underleveled for.

 

There is no middle ground to be had with Fade Shield. No barrier = dead mage on Nightmare, and melee enemies cleave and move around quite a bit. Fade Cloak's short cooldown and incredible synergy with Clean Burn is where most of the survivability comes from in my experience.

 

But I'm not sure this is really a problem that needs to be fixed. Yeah, a KE can get a jump on harder content with minimal gearing, but it's not optimal to the point where I'd wonder why somebody would bother. Any other class when geared is beastly, and quite a few do far more damage than KE. KE isn't even on par for damage against fire immune mobs.

[Realyn]

That's your preference. Don't pretend to speak for everyone. People play games for different reasons. Some, like you, love a challenge. Others like to feel empowered and godlike, while still others want to enjoy the story without having to focus too much on the combat. Gameplay experience is subjective. Please don't suggest that everything in this game should cater to your personal ideal of what a good game should be.

 

If you want to be godlike, that's what casual difficulty is for. That way you can be godlike with any class. But for a class to completely and utterly destroy even the highest difficulty setting has nothing whatsoever to do with 'personal preference'. That's just bad game balance.

[sunnydxmen]

knight enchanter is not the only class to make nightmare easy should those classes be nerf aswell.

[Cid Revolution]

If you want to be godlike, that's what casual difficulty is for. That way you can be godlike with any class. But for a class to completely and utterly destroy even the highest difficulty setting has nothing whatsoever to do with 'personal preference'. That's just bad game balance.

You're asking for a total reduction in the effectiveness of the class which would render it weaker regardless of difficulty. That doesn't sound like a fair balance; it sounds like you don't want to handicap yourself, but would rather handicap the entire class to conform to your personal preference--a preference that prioritized challenge.

[Realyn]

You're asking for a total reduction in the effectiveness of the class which would render it weaker regardless of difficulty. That doesn't sound like a fair balance; it sounds like you don't want to handicap yourself, but would rather handicap the entire class to conform to your personal preference--a preference that prioritized challenge.

 

Eh, yes I'm asking for a reduction in the effectiveness of the class. That's... like... what I've been saying the past few posts. Also, handicap an entire class? Wtf? I'm not asking for mages to only hit enemies with the blunt end of their walking sticks.

 

And you use the words 'fair balance' like it's a balanced class right now. 

 

It seems you can't understand the fact that the sheer survivability makes the entire game, across all and any difficulty levels, a frikkin' cakewalk. This essentially destroys the very purpose of harder difficulties. Balancing out the class would change virtually nothing to their 'god-mode' on casual difficulty unless you have no hands to play with. You could stick 2 points in the fire tree and feel like a god at that difficulty.

 

Balance it and we'll have the best of both worlds; God mode on casual difficulty and proper gameplay on nightmare mode.

[SpinG22]

My KE does amazing damage with fire magic always getting his barrier back. Tons of damage with fire mine and immolate.

[BLOOD LORDS]

It's a mage tank... it's supposed to... you know... tank?

Next you will be complaining that Champion is too hard to kill.

[In Exile]

So don't play one?

[kkleven]

NO nerfing in single player games. Not everyone have reached high levels yet and may need some good chars. If the game too easy at high levels, use other chars than KE. If you play right, you will still have alot followers who may are consider weak. If you have less clue - like me - know how to max out a char strenght/resist dmg from enemies you may get into trouble even in high levels.

 

If anything could be changed, a-b-o-v-e normal playgame - enemies could do more dmg and have better resist so no one can solo dragons/bosses - you may need to have at least 3 chars in the crew as example. You can also respec a char to not be so strong - meaning you can nerfe a char by yourself. You can also choose to not use any "good" items.

 

Cheers,

-Klevs

[Weltall]

Instead of saying "get mor gud", in this case, can we just say "get mor bad"?

[Plouton]

Well, I usually I don't pay much attention which class is "overpowered" and which are not, and just playing whatever class I like. But after reading several similar threads I decided to make some kind of test - kill two dragons (High Abyssal Dragon from quest and Hinterlands one, both fire). 

 

My party was level 16 - melee Assassin Inquisitor, Varric, Cassandra and Vivienne. I geared into loot and quest items mostly because I only have one Tier 3 craft recipe (my rogue dagger) and have very little Tier 3 crafting components. So, I assume my team has more or less "average" gear. I also had some Fire resistance belts. Potions was standard Healing, Regeneration in second slot and almost fully upgraded (except AOE effect) FR in third.

 

Inquisitor is pure offensive dual daggers/stealth/assassin spec without any survivability talents but Stealth (I usually babysit him in combat).

Cassandra has 4 points in Templar tree (Improved Spell purge and Blessed Blades), the rest is distributed between Shield and Sword and Vanguard trees.

Varric's skill points distributed evenly between ranged combat and artificer trees.

Vivienne is specced to KE (full tree except last talent) and Spirit (full tree except Revival). I didn't spec her to more offensive because she is the only mage in my party. Anyway, all KE haters says that it is "one-button spec", so we probably don't need any offense but Spirit blade, isn't it?

 

So, I attacked Dragons, and...

 

My rogue can't survive long enough in both fights. He just haven't right build, i think. So I let it be killed.

 

AI controlled Varric can survive for some time in High Abyssal Dragon fight, but can't survive in Hinterlands. Since his survival wasn't my goal, I let him die and raised him occasionally when I had time to provide some additional damage.

 

Cassandra... oh yes, baby. She could survive both fights on her own, with minimal manual intervention.

 

And our KE, Vivienne. I controlled her almost exclusively in both fights. She hasn't died and dragons has been killed eventually, but it was nothing like "press 1 button to win". It required a lot of micromanagement. Even with all my talents for Barrier, it can't be maintained between cooldowns in the fight in Hinterlands, mainly because attacking dragon with Spirit blade provides almost no barrier. So without tanking Cassandra I would be doomed for certain. High Abyssal dragon is another story - he has Guard, and Spirit blade really shines here. Anyway, KE DPS with Spirit blade is really bad, so both fights also required considerable amount of time.

 

So, if we speak about who is "overpowered", then Warrior, not KE should be first target. Cassandra is basically undergeared generic warrior tank with four talent points wasted (her Templar talents didn't help much here), and still, she could survive both fights tanking dragons while AI controlled! I wonder what properly specced Champion can do... KE survivability is good, definitely better than generic rogues , but I wouldn't describe it in the way "I steamrolled anything with just mashing Spirit blade button lol".

 

Yes, probably I can tune up KE spec for solo combat, get better gear, and so on... but it also true for many other classes. I definitely sure that warrior is not worse, I read about rogue archers soloing entire game, and so on. So I don't understand why KE is specifically marked as "ovepowered" by people.

 

Also I assume that there can be some basically invulnerable characters exploiting "guard on hit" mechanics on gear and talents, but again, it's not KE specific.

[choebit]

My Tempest inqui can solo Highland Ravager in Nightmare FF without using flask of fire.

What's so wrong being OP in single player? I feel it sooo rewarding after struggling to find schematics

[Krim]

wyh not increase mana cost for striking with ghost blade? Like 3 to 4 hits and you are spent. Nerf mana reg a bit and things look different.

[DaemionMoadrin]

wyh not increase mana cost for striking with ghost blade? Like 3 to 4 hits and you are spent. Nerf mana reg a bit and things look different.

 

Why would anyone play KE then? 4 hits are 1600-1800 dmg, that's not worth the risk and the points put into this spec. You'd be better off as Necromancer or Rift mage.

[Krim]

Why would anyone play KE then? 4 hits are 1600-1800 dmg, that's not worth the risk and the points put into this spec. You'd be better off as Necromancer or Rift mage.

 

Well maybe more hits then. Its a matter of balance. But I play KE to be a mage that doesn't fear melee and can block arrows with a badass ghost blade .  Thats what I wanted and i do but still i am tempted to abuse the KE because it makes me invincible due to the fact that there is almost no limit in using the blade. So I thought increase the cost of mana for each strike.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Well maybe more hits then. Its a matter of balance. But I play KE to be a mage that doesn't fear melee and can block arrows with a badass ghost blade .  Thats what I wanted and i do but still i am tempted to abuse the KE because it makes me invincible due to the fact that there is almost no limit in using the blade. So I thought increase the cost of mana for each strike.

 

Invincible? No, you're still vulnerable to status effects. If you get stunned or staggered while taking a lot of damage, you are dead. Your damage is average at best and you give up what meager utility mages have for a lightsaber. I think KE is balanced as it is.

 

There are easier specs. Try Necro, you'll be much faster than KE.

[Tensai]

It's a mage tank... it's supposed to... you know... tank?

Next you will be complaining that Champion is too hard to kill.

 

A tank is supposed to soak damage, not to deal tons of it, which KE also does.

 

I played as mage, and it was kinda boring until i picked KE, i really enjoyed KE, but it's clearly a easy mode.

[DaemionMoadrin]

A tank is supposed to soak damage, not to deal tons of it, which KE also does.

 

I played as mage, and it was kinda boring until i picked KE, i really enjoyed KE, but it's clearly a easy mode.

 

KE does the least damage compared to the other two specs. And it doesn't even play in the same league than rogues and warriors.

[Krim]

Invincible? No, you're still vulnerable to status effects. If you get stunned or staggered while taking a lot of damage, you are dead. Your damage is average at best and you give up what meager utility mages have for a lightsaber. I think KE is balanced as it is.

 

There are easier specs. Try Necro, you'll be much faster than KE.

 

I play on "hard" difficulty and I don't get stunned or staggered very often. Cant even remember the last time. Anyway, I think the "invincibility" here reveals itself specially when you fight against supposedly hard opponents like giants or dragons and if you are KE it doesn't even matter whether you take your party or not, you ARE invincible against those opponents by JUST pressing and holding only one button and that is what bugs me, because it is kinda immersion-breaking. I know maybe other classes are op too in that regard but that does not mean you cannot nerf KE. I still say that increasing the cost of mana to limit the use of the ghost blade would be good. I could still play the way i want to play KE but would have a harder time against Dragons and such.