106 réponses à ce sujet

[Realyn]

tbh, Blackwall is far more endurant than Vivienne, and he has the added benefit of being able to draw nearly all the aggro with his taunting abilities. In fact, I don't think I've seen him die once, but I've seen Vivienne go down a few times if I'm not micromanaging her AI so she doesn't stand in the middle of every single enemy spamming Spirit Blade but not hitting anything. KE is far from the most OP spec.

 

Considering the AI has no idea how to play the KE spec, I'm not surprised you think they aren't OP.

 

Letting the AI handle a dual-wield rogue or a KE mage is like giving a 4-year old kid a master's course in algebra; he's gonna suck balls at it.

[areopi]

It's not an MMO,so I'm not entirely sure why the nerf is a priority. If you feel it's OP then maybe don't play it. At the end of the day It doesn't seem like this really matters for a lot of, possibly the overwhelming majority, of players.

[Hazegurl]

KE does not need to be nerfed, just don't become a KE.

[Voragoras]

 

Considering the AI has no idea how to play the KE spec, I'm not surprised you think they aren't OP.

 

Letting the AI handle a dual-wield rogue or a KE mage is like giving a 4-year old kid a master's course in algebra; he's gonna suck balls at it.

 

The point is, Champion is OP no matter what you do: control them directly or leave them to the AI. With KE, you have to babysit the AI or it's pretty much just as much use as Rift Mage or Necromancer. Clearly, it's not the most OP class.

[d-boy15]

How about nerf you characters by youself, use less damage weapons and gears. Really, KE is far from OP. To make them impossible to die, you totally need to babysit them otherwise they will die fast.

[Realyn]

I find the 'go play something else' fairly offensive to be honest. Unless there's another magical melee class I haven't been told about, this OPness pretty much means I can't play a class with a very interesting idea behind it.

 

And I still can't believe people call KE not OP when they absolutely and utterly trash nightmare difficulty without any problems whatsoever. Nightmare difficulty. Nightmare. Not Sweet Dreams difficulty. 

[Plouton]

And I still can't believe people call KE not OP when they absolutely and utterly trash nightmare difficulty without any problems whatsoever. Nightmare difficulty. Nightmare. Not Sweet Dreams difficulty. 

 

Once again - it's not KE specific. Warriors and Rogues also has builds which allows to do that. Moreother, such builds were possible in ANY Bioware RPG starting at least from BG2. Why KE should be treated differently from others? If powerplayers were asked for additional difficulty level instead, it would be much more reasonable.

 

If core class abilities (like barrier generation from damage) will be nerfed - it will be nerfed for all people and any difficulty, thus possibly making KE unplayable for average player.

[rupok93]

Every class has op ability. Warrior guard is almost the same as KE. Its a tank role. It has shitty dps in favor of tank. I don't think sp portion of this game needs balancing changes it will prob destroy the class. Arcane warrior was one of the best classes in DAO as well. It was meant for very very hard tanking. You could solo dragons in DAO with arcane warrior on max difficulty.

[Silcron]

I managed to be kind of invincible with my two warriors. I only need two things: war cry and upgraded combat roll. I just roll away from most attacks, since the ones that hit hard have pretty long tells, and when they do hit me, well, some guard goes down. The horror!

[Realyn]

Once again - it's not KE specific. Warriors and Rogues also has builds which allows to do that. Moreother, such builds were possible in ANY Bioware RPG starting at least from BG2. Why KE should be treated differently from others? If powerplayers were asked for additional difficulty level instead, it would be much more reasonable.

 

If core class abilities (like barrier generation from damage) will be nerfed - it will be nerfed for all people and any difficulty, thus possibly making KE unplayable for average player.

 

Dude, I can be completely and totally unkillable in crappy treasure chest dropped gear at level 10-11 when I first get the KE spec. Try rolling a rogue/warrior/other mage spec and do that at level 11 and you're... well, not really that powerful. I'm not talking about only at level 21+. KE is that invincible from the very moment you get it. You can clear the entirety of the game with a single button if you want. No way in hell is that intended gameplay.

 

And I'm sorry, but if KE becomes unplayable for anyone with a nerf to the current barrier generation, they just plain suck ass and certainly aren't 'average players'. Those players should be playing on casual difficulty mode where anything and everything is easy to begin with.

 

Right now, KE spec is basically an extremely durable and potentially very high DPS class with zero drawbacks; AKA god-mode enabled gameplay on any difficulty. 

 

I managed to be kind of invincible with my two warriors. I only need two things: war cry and upgraded combat roll. I just roll away from most attacks, since the ones that hit hard have pretty long tells, and when they do hit me, well, some guard goes down. The horror!

 

See, right there! I wouldn't mind invincibility, but it would have to be because of the gamer, not a passive frikkin' skill that lets you facemurder Pride demons and Dragons on nightmare difficulty.

 

Rogues are powerful, but still have this nagging weakness that if they do get hit, they die. Warriors are powerful, but still have this weakness that if their Guard (which is massively inferior to barrier) fails or they fail to evade, they die. Tanks have this weakness that despite their inherent toughness, their damage is sub-par at best. Once again, I'm not talking level 21+ here, where any class is a god amongst men anyway. I'm talking about the core of the game that comes before that point.

 

I would utterly love to play a mage warrior hybrid class. But apparantly people who have no interest in playing an actual game and instead want what is essentially a glorified interactive movie, get to have their god-mode class. People who actually want to play the game at it's intended level of difficulty get screwed out of a very interesting class.

 

And once again, lowering the difficulty gets you the god-mode you want regardless of class. I can't exactly turn my difficulty higher then nightmare just to enjoy the game. People who'd want to be powerful would notice very little, if anything, from a nerf if they would just adjust their difficulty level. All the while people who want to play the spec with a challenge, could also get it. I really don't understand why people are against this. Nothing would change for the people that'd want to be powerful and everything would change for the people who'd want an actual challenge while playing a very interesting spec.

[Br3admax]

Assassins and Champions are both pretty much the same way, so...

 

It's not like KE is the only OP spec that can solo the game once you get it. 

[fireproof_boots]

It works both ways, maybe people like playing the KE on nightmare and stomping stuff. Why should they have to reduce the difficulty just because you want it nerfed so you can play it on nightmare. You're no more special then they are.

 

Don't pick the KE cleanburn/firemine combo there's other synergies "No! I wanna play it that way!" but it's really strong, it will make the game kinda easy "Don't care, nerf it!" how about not putting +5 guard on hit on your weapon? "No! I need it!" but on the KE that's another really good synergy "So! Then nerf it!".  

 

Pretty much everyone's argument is, they wanna be OP, but not TOO OP.  They wanna pick all the OP stuff by default, but then complain it makes the game too easy just because the KE can generate barrier on damage.

 

Enough people crying in that vocal minority group and the devs will cave.  Unfortunately, it's already working.  They already removed the detonator ability on the Spirit Blade skill. 

 

For me personally, I switched from a KE to a Rift Mage because I saw the videos of how strong they were. I didn't clench my butt and cry for a nerf because i'm a special snowflake, I just switched specializations and called it a day.  And if I wanted to play the KE and still not trivialize the game, I wouldn't take +5 guard on hit or cleanburn/firemine combo. 

 

This is no different from when the Arcane Warrior in DA:O was crazy good.  Even some of the rogue builds were too. 

 

 

It really doesn't though.  The entire point of difficulty setting is to let people have the challenge they want.  Here's the thing: some people like min/maxing and optimizing builds.  Its what we find fun.  That is what nightmare difficulty exists for man.  So that people who want to have a challenge where only the best builds succeed can.  A class that trivializes the hardest difficulty of a game is bad design and should be fixed.  If you want a class that does that then you want a poorly designed game and that's not really a great stance.

 

Class choice should be built on the playstyle a person wants.

Difficulty choice should be built on the challenge a person wants.

 

That's why we have both.  If you want to stomp through the game, the difficulty setting is where you should address that.  But a player should not have to gimp themselves or not play their favorite class because they want a challenge.  You should have to turn the difficulty off nightmare to stomp through godmode because that's what the damn difficulty setting is there for!

[Gaesesagai]

It's funny. Most silly people crying about how KE is OP, won't play KE even if it is nerfed. Hopefully Bioware doesn't nerf KE without thinking about it. Personally I think it's ok. There are skills in game that hit for 100-200k damage... close to if not one-shotting dragons. No one complains about that as much as KE. You don't like KE gameplay... avoid it. Don't whine about it until you ruin everyone elses experience with it.

[fireproof_boots]

It's funny. Most silly people crying about how KE is OP, won't play KE even if it is nerfed. Hopefully Bioware doesn't nerf KE without thinking about it. Personally I think it's ok. There are skills in game that hit for 100-200k damage... close to if not one-shotting dragons. No one complains about that as much as KE. You don't like KE gameplay... avoid it. Don't whine about it until you ruin everyone elses experience with it.

 

I would say the opposite.  Why would someone who doesn't play the class want a nerf?  It only effects those of us who play the class, so I'd assume its mostly people like me who play KE that ask for them.

[Realyn]

Assassins and Champions are both pretty much the same way, so...

 

It's not like KE is the only OP spec that can solo the game once you get it. 

 

Assassin when you just get the spec; great damage, f*ck all survivability. Possible to solo with on nightmare, but it will require quite a lot of skill/luck against tough enemies.

 

Champions when you get the spec: f*ck all damage, great survivability. Yet the survivability at this point doesn't even come close to the KE (guard is like barrier's impotent friend in comparison).

 

A simple fix to the KE would be to limit the amount of barrier generation. At lower difficulty levels you will barely (if at all) notice due to the fact you receive a crapton less damage and at higher difficulty levels you will no longer be able to withstand a dragon, weighing in at several tons, standing on your ass as if it were a feather brushing your cheek.

[Voragoras]

I find the 'go play something else' fairly offensive to be honest. Unless there's another magical melee class I haven't been told about, this OPness pretty much means I can't play a class with a very interesting idea behind it.

 

And I still can't believe people call KE not OP when they absolutely and utterly trash nightmare difficulty without any problems whatsoever. Nightmare difficulty. Nightmare. Not Sweet Dreams difficulty. 

 

I'm on Nightmare, and like I said, Vivienne is constantly dying if I'm not overseeing her, and often runs straight into all of the melee to kamikaze them all with Spirit Blade. While I have to babysit the KE build, Blackwall is absolutely unkillable no matter what I do, and Sera somehow manages to have more survivability and DPS in AI, and that's before you chime in with the Focus glitch. KE is only "OP" because it's the "easiest" to synergise with, whereas with other classes (that end up being far more OP, ironically), you need to actually think about what you build into, cross-tree.

[Realyn]

I'm on Nightmare, and like I said, Vivienne is constantly dying if I'm not overseeing her, and often runs straight into all of the melee to kamikaze them all with Spirit Blade. While I have to babysit the KE build, Blackwall is absolutely unkillable no matter what I do, and Sera somehow manages to have more survivability and DPS in AI, and that's before you chime in with the Focus glitch. KE is only "OP" because it's the "easiest" to synergise with, whereas with other classes (that end up being far more OP, ironically), you need to actually think about what you build into, cross-tree.

Once again, that's an AI issue, not a spec issue. The AI in this game is pretty horrible with certain classes.

[Harvest_King]

I switched made a mage for nightmare mode, and it was OP from the get go, everything is. Heck, it's really not that different from the other difficulties, except the enemy hits harder and takes a tad longer to die, one thing that makes it slightly easier, is that the number of mobs spawned have been lowered in support of tougher mobs, I noticed that when sealing rifts. Cassandra rarely loses any guard, so I just send her in first, and pick off everything, the first dragon wasn't that much harder either, at level 8, as on normal mode, he can still one shot a mage. And it just keeps getting easier.

[JaegerBane]

 
A simple fix to the KE would be to limit the amount of barrier generation. At lower difficulty levels you will barely (if at all) notice due to the fact you receive a crapton less damage and at higher difficulty levels you will no longer be able to withstand a dragon, weighing in at several tons, standing on your ass as if it were a feather brushing your cheek.

The old adage of 'if you can think of a simple answer to a problem that many have, chances are you don't understand the problem' rings true here. The issue is that the KE is supposed to be able to handle melee, despite being a base class that is supposed to stay at range. This creates a situation where they need a drastic buff to bring them up to the level where they can work in the same situation that classes with much better toughness and armour work.

All that 'fix' above will do is hit it with a weakness to bosses, as the spec is intended to work as a melee. If it can't melee bosses then you haven't fixed it, you've broken it.

[Voragoras]

Once again, that's an AI issue, not a spec issue. The AI in this game is pretty horrible with certain classes.

 

But, like I said, if the KE was seriously OP, they wouldn't need AI babysitting, so it's clearly not a "press one button to win" class. I've never had to AI babysit with any other character spec, except when fighting dragons with Cassandra.

[Sergwynn]

It really doesn't though.  The entire point of difficulty setting is to let people have the challenge they want.  Here's the thing: some people like min/maxing and optimizing builds.  Its what we find fun.  That is what nightmare difficulty exists for man.  So that people who want to have a challenge where only the best builds succeed can.  A class that trivializes the hardest difficulty of a game is bad design and should be fixed.  If you want a class that does that then you want a poorly designed game and that's not really a great stance.

 

Class choice should be built on the playstyle a person wants.

Difficulty choice should be built on the challenge a person wants.

 

That's why we have both.  If you want to stomp through the game, the difficulty setting is where you should address that.  But a player should not have to gimp themselves or not play their favorite class because they want a challenge.  You should have to turn the difficulty off nightmare to stomp through godmode because that's what the damn difficulty setting is there for!

 

A class that trivializes a difficulty isn't bad design. It reflects amazing design actually. The class has such amazing synergies that it does amazing with anything thrown at it.  There's just some synergies that do better than others. It's probably a safe bet assuming that everyone crying about how OP the KE is, is playing Clean Burn/Fire Mine with solas using pull of the abyss as well as +5 guard on hit. That's not bad design, that's just some amazing synergy between mage ability trees and between party members.

 

I'll agree the Knight Enchanter is really really strong when built to be optimal. I guess Bioware decided to cave a bit with the detonator removal on Spirit Blade since enough people cried about it.

 

I'll never agree with nerfs in a SINGLE PLAYER game though unless they are abilities one shotting bosses when combined or something to that extent.  If players wanna feel strong in an RPG let them feel strong. If you don't wanna feel strong, play a different class. That's my stance on it.

 

Yay vocal minorities

 

Should also add that if you truly wanted to feel challenged on Nightmare, you'd play the weakest class combo in the game to try and beat it. Not one that's top 4

 

NERF ALL THE THINGS!

[Voragoras]

^ I put +5 Guard on Hit on Sera, and now she's an absolutely unkillable DPS monster. As in, solo high dragon on nightmare unkillable. I seriously have no idea why people are whining about KE being OP when they're just as OP as every other spec can be, especially a bow Tempest with stealth abilities. Maybe others just have no idea how to build the other classes?

[Imryll]

If you feel the spec is too strong, play a different spec or build/equip your KE to have the degree of survivability you'd prefer. Sliders are only the most obvious way of calibrating difficulty in single-player games. Including a mix of easier/more difficult to play specs seems to me an intelligent design choice. Not every spec is going to be "for" every player. That can be a function of what the player finds fun or because it offers the wrong degree of challenge. Just because I don't enjoying positioning dagger rogues doesn't mean folks who enjoy backstabbing shouldn't get to do so. Just because you'd prefer a less survivable mage doesn't mean that others should have their fun spoiled. 

[scribeman]

All development in DA:I went to the warrior class and absolutely no one else.

 

Mages are so pathetic it's a waste of time until you get the KE specialization. It is literally the only point in playing a Mage, becauset he other specializations are hilariously terrible.

 

So if you don't like it, sod off. I am not now nor ever going to play a warrior. How dull. I would play a dual-wielding rogue, but that's almost as bad as the entire Mage class. Almost.

 

Magic users cannot do heavy damage, they cannot heal, they cannot provide support... But they can die instantly because none of the other flaws were addressed. All the weakness of a mage, none of the advantages.

 

The perversity of this broken system is driven home by the concept of your tank taking massive damage for the entire party, damage you cannot heal. How in the hell does that make any sense?