51 réponses à ce sujet

[actionhero112]

block and slash is not that good. For one, you need to waste a talent point on an upgrade to generate guard. For two, why waste stamina on blocking, when generating 10% per enemy is actually beter in the long run?

Plus, 10% is really all that is needed for any warrior.

 

It blocks everything from sword attacks to dragon kicks. It allows you to stay in range of brutes by blocking their sweeps. It not only generates guard, but protects what you have by completely nullifying melee attacks. It blocks guardsmen rushes, it knocks normal units down. IT HAS NO COOLDOWN.

 

You think it's bad? Ha. 

 

Why upgrade it? Because you're using it constantly. Or at least should be. 

[draken-heart]

It blocks everything from sword attacks to dragon kicks. It allows you to stay in range of brutes by blocking their sweeps. It not only generates guard, but protects what you have by completely nullifying melee attacks. It blocks guardsmen rushes, it knocks normal units down. IT HAS NO COOLDOWN. It's the definitive second best 2 handed warrior talent, after mighty blow.
 
You think it's bad? Ha. 
 
Why upgrade it? Because you're using it constantly. Or at least should be.

if you need toblock attacks, why not go weaoon and shield?

[1G86]

I'm confused now. Isn't Block and Slash for 2H Warriors? Again it depends on whether or not your a full tank. All warriors benefit from Guard Generation as one you pointed out it's damage mitigation, a warrior's way to stay longer in a fight.

If you're a 2H, I would suspect that you will have at least Charging Bull with its upgrade. And while you're at it you may as well get Unbowed and its upgrade. I don't think you would be need all of the W&S passives if you're not the full tank. But just as well, you can get the early ones like Turn the Bolt and Bear Mauls Wolf. (or something like that.) This way you will not need to unlock the active skills to get Turn the Blade. Block and Slash is actually a pretty good skill to get too. It sends small mobs flying and yes it blocks even Dragon Attacks.

If you're a W&S Warrior, by default you should have Shield Wall which is one of the best Guard Generating skill early game. If you're a full Tank I would prefer War Cry over Challenge. (But you can get it later on if ever). Then you can get Charging Bull, not for the Guard Generation per say but for the CC and Mobility. No need for Unbowed IMO.

If you're the Off-Tank W&S, you can probably get Shield Wall, Challenge, and Upgraded Charging Bull. That's it probably.

For any W&S, I don't think you need Unbowed. It's more of a 2H skill IMO.

[actionhero112]

if you need toblock attacks, why not go weaoon and shield?

 

What? You're melee dps without a way to drop aggro. Of course your going to need ways to mitigate damage. Block and Slash nullifies a portion of it while hitting back, not only that, but enemies like dragons and brutes have aoe melee attacks that will hit you even if you aren't the focus of their ire. It's the same reason you need at least some guard generation abilities. 

 

You just don't need unbowed, because there are more efficient and better build paths that mitigate damage than spending 4 points in vanguard for a 30 second ability that pretty much the same as an ability 4 points earlier in the tree, War Cry. 

 

In a game where you're only allowed 8 slots for abilities, efficient build pathing matters. 

 

I mean you can build by choosing the prettiest abilities, but your build will do less overall. 

[draken-heart]

What? You're melee dps without a way to drop aggro. Of course your going to need ways to mitigate damage. Block and Slash nullifies a portion of it while hitting back, not only that, but enemies like dragons and brutes have aoe melee attacks that will hit you even if you aren't the focus of their ire. It's the same reason you need at least some guard generation abilities.

You just don't need unbowed, because there are more efficient and better build paths that mitigate damage than spending 4 points in vanguard for a 30 second ability that

There you go again. It'll cost you is actually good, an for about how much of the game are you using block and slash? Champion spec does a better job at mitigation than that.

In fact, I think that crafting is better than any ability for mitigation.

[actionhero112]

There you go again. It'll cost you is actually good, an for about how much of the game are you using block and slash? Champion spec does a better job at mitigation than that.

In fact, I think that crafting is better than any ability for mitigation.

The. Entire. Game. 

 

It literally blocks everything and hits back for 200% damage. It's how I solo'd the Crestwood dragon on nightmare in crap gear. That and charging bull. You know what's better than guard preventing you from taking health damage? Not getting hit in the first place because you used block and slash. Oh and it gives you guard too. 

 

For it'll cost you to be useful to your dps you have to constantly be taking massive damage. Is that really your strategy as melee dps? To take a lot of damage? Maybe you do need unbowed after all. 

 

Why would you go anything besides Reaver or maybe Templar as a 2h warrior? Reaver makes use of the superior crit chance that is offered by 2h'd weapons and has weapon damage steroids. It also removes the slow auto animation while keeping the aoe. 

 

Anyways, if you're taking you should take both war cry and unbowed, but you only need war cry as 2h dps. 

[draken-heart]

Actually, you are wrong about that. Shield wall is better guard than unbowed. Meaning that you are right, unbowed is 100% pointless.

[1G86]

I think it's Unbowed and Charging Bull for 2H DPS. You will get Block and Slash, which is indeed quite effective, and looks pretty awesome against massive foes. In order for you to get Charging Bull, I would take Challenge instead, this would at least help out in pullinh some aggro off your Tank. And yes before I forget, I'm assuming that you're a 2H warrior in a 2-warrior party with a Tank.

 

For W&S, Shield Wall, and Charging Bulll are my bare minimum. If you're a full Tank, War Cry or whatever else you can get hold of in the Champion or Paladin Tree. (Reaver Tree are mostly DPS Skills). I wouldn't get Unbowed for a W&S. It's in too far the Vanguard Tree, I'd rather focus on the W&S Tree and focus on whatever Spec you might have.

[draken-heart]

I think it's Unbowed and Charging Bull for 2H DPS. You will get Block and Slash, which is indeed quite effective, and looks pretty awesome against massive foes. In order for you to get Charging Bull, I would take Challenge instead, this would at least help out in pullinh some aggro off your Tank. And yes before I forget, I'm assuming that you're a 2H warrior in a 2-warrior party with a Tank.

I think for a warrior, there is not so much "tank" and "DPS" as people think, but "Primary agro holder" and "Secondary agro holder."

[1G86]

I think for a warrior, there is not so much "tank" and "DPS" as people think, but "Primary agro holder" and "Secondary agro holder."

 

Well okay, if that's the case, your primary aggro holder, I would assume is a W&S. And your secondary or off-tank can be any of the weapon specs. Same case still applies in my opinion. You prime should be more invested in damage mitigation but I don't think it will come to a point that he or she would need Unbowed. 

 

If you anticipate that your prime will fall and your secondary should assume the role, by all means you can get Unbowed on any of the specs. War Cry could be a possibility but only if you have most of the Damage Mitigation from W&S Tree or good crafted gear. I really don't recommend War Cry on a 2H Warrior. But that's just me. 

 

Maybe this just goes to show that there is no sole or single source of Guard Generation. It will really be dependent on the roles of your Warriors, or how you define them. May it be Tank/ DPS or Primary/Secondary Tank.

[1G86]

We do also have to keep in mind that AI would switch between targets due to the amount of damage each party member contributes. This is where Taunts and Threat Reduction play out. (I get Peaceful Aura for my Mages, for instance.) Skills like Challenge and Grappling Hook (with our without upgrade) prove useful. Both your prime and secondary holder can have this in their bag of tricks. I'm just having second thoughts with Grappling Hook  since it's an investment outside of getting Charging Bull. 

[Matth85]

To be fair; I have not played anything but Nightmare. So what I am about to say might not hold the same value on lower difficulty.

 

I think for a warrior, there is not so much "tank" and "DPS" as people think, but "Primary agro holder" and "Secondary agro holder."

No. If anything, this game got the biggest defining line of "dps" and "tank" I have ever seen.

A tank can survive about 20 arrows before needing to chug a potions. Exluding guard generation.

A dps warrior can take 4.

A rogue can take 2, maybe 3. 

A mage can take 2.

 

A dps warrior should never hold aggro unless it is an emergency, at which you've screwed up big times. That's why you build your dps warrior as a mix of damage and control: You can keep 1 enemy locked down until it dies. Mighty Blow, Grappling Chain and Pommel Strike is enough for that.

 

Now, on the topic of guard in itself: It is pointless to buld for guard. For 2 reasons:

1) Guard is worthless without enough damage mitigation. Which means unless you are late-game, it's not worth the trouble.

2) The tank got 2 taunts. Your team got a handful of CCs. You should never be taking damage.

 

Hence I recommend building for only charging Bull as a guard generator, if you can't live without it. Otherwise go down the Weapons and Shield tree and get Turn to the Bolt and Turn to the Sword. That alone is worth more than any guard.

The reason for this, by the way, is simple: 100%(full) guard is 25% of your max health. Your mat health is probably under 1000 throughout the game(My 21 warrior is at 900). 25% of 900 is 225. 225 extra health on a full guard. So 20% is 45 health. If you taunt 1 enemy, you are surely getting hit at least once by that enemy. Now, enemies at level 4 hit more than 45 damage unless you are geared and built for it -- which requires passives in Weapons and Shield.

 

Now, onward. To get Unbowed you require 4, optimally 5, points. That is a lot of wasted ability points. Instead of having a rather mediocre Unbowed, you could have:

 

- Pommel strike + mighty strike with upgrade 

or

- Grappling Chain with upgrade + Combat Roll + Coupe De Grace

or

- Turn the bolt + turn the blade + 1 extra ability point! yey!

or

- Charging Bill with upgrade + 2 points yey!

 

If you can't live without guard, use Charging Bull. You're going lose more health than save health by taunting enemies, and Unbowed is simply too heavy into the vanguard tree to be worth it!

[1G86]

To be fair; I have not played anything but Nightmare. So what I am about to say might not hold the same value on lower difficulty.

 

*Snip*

 

Well said. Thank you for that. I had the same idea as you have but I haven't played all that much to confirm.

[draken-heart]

To be honest, a rogue is greater DPS than a warrior. In the late game, I find there are two types of warriors:

1. The ones who survive, have a high guard generation and high armor.
2. The ones who are not doing anything because they got dropped because they were "DPS". these people use REAVER with 2h which is suicide unless you are playing the warrior.

In the end, All warriors should be tanks. End of Story. Leave the DPS to the experts at it (mages for AoE, Rogue for ST/boss).

[1G86]

Still, to each his own. Cheers.

[Matth85]

To be honest, a rogue is greater DPS than a warrior. In the late game, I find there are two types of warriors:

1. The ones who survive, have a high guard generation and high armor.
2. The ones who are not doing anything because they got dropped because they were "DPS". these people use REAVER with 2h which is suicide unless you are playing the warrior.

In the end, All warriors should be tanks. End of Story. Leave the DPS to the experts at it (mages for AoE, Rogue for ST/boss).

You're not much of a tactictal gamer, are you?

 

1) The ones who survive have high mitigation, or play smart. Guard plays no role in it.

2) Reaver is not suicidal at all. It requires a little bit of managing, but it deals high dps.

 

Warriors make decent dps. Reaver does insane AoE dps. Not even an assassin DW rogue can beat a Reaver in an AoE situation. Obviously, a Reaver won't beat a rogue in a single target situation. But does it matter? A warrior looks badass and can be a lot of fun. They got more control and party buff than anything else, and can do some hard attacks left and right. They missed a bit with specializations and synergy between skill trees -- but we make it work. 

 

Just, FYI: My reaver will outdps any mage in an AoE. My Reaver late game can also tank, as he got 50% defense and 300 armor. He can solo High Dragons, on nightmare, no problems. He can't out dps a Rogue, obviously, but the guy can break the game on its own.

[ICSM]

Guard generation is not just for tanks. It savez up on heal potions, which is good for anyone.
Here is how it works: guard is warrior mitigation, dodge is a melee rogue's mitigation, while barrier is mage mitigation. If yu are a warrior wihout guard, you are little more than a corpse.

A Meele rogue's mitigation is not getting hit, due to being in constant stealth and only attacking in bursts, to avoid aggro and random 360 radius attacks. If you are relying on that flimsy dodge chance to prevent damage, you are going to die very quickly.

[Keldaur]

Tier 1 on the technique tree, against tier 3 in the technique tree. You only want charge bull anyways, so why bother.

[draken-heart]

Here is how I see it. What guard generator to depends on who is controlling the warrior. I would not trust the AI to use block and slash on a two handed reaver, or to run a two handed reaver period. The AI is terrible, and needs work to do the job right. So as a player controlled warrior, anything is fine, as the player is doing the job, but on an AI controlled one, I would rather trust the survival of that warrior to a champion spec/unbowed to hoping that the AI gets it right.

[Keldaur]

I don't understand exactly why you want to get hit. If you are not tanking, you have plenty interrupts/knockdowns to solo anything one on one stunlocking it, and combat roll allows you to never get hit. If you want to tank with him, it's the same, you just use combat roll to get away and go in when you have barriers and/or bullrush to knockback enemies, and use taunts to hold aggro. There is absolutely no need to stand in place against.

[1G86]

But I've read there are a lot of things AI uses effectively, like Combat Roll. I'm actually doing a run where both Templar and Champion Specs will go 2H. I just started my game so I would yet confirm some of your experiences. I'm currently running with my Inquisitor as the Main Tank, and I already re-rolled Cassandra into a 2H Warrior. I'm just having a hard time now, as she really charges in balls out. She would definitely need War Cry soon, as I got Grappling Hook first.

 

To your point I haven't seen her use Block and Slash effectively. In fact, I did have to control her to make use of it. 

[Matth85]

But I've read there are a lot of things AI uses effectively, like Combat Roll. I'm actually doing a run where both Templar and Champion Specs will go 2H. I just started my game so I would yet confirm some of your experiences. I'm currently running with my Inquisitor as the Main Tank, and I already re-rolled Cassandra into a 2H Warrior. I'm just having a hard time now, as she really charges in balls out. She would definitely need War Cry soon, as I got Grappling Hook first.

 

To your point I haven't seen her use Block and Slash effectively. In fact, I did have to control her to make use of it. 

The Ai will use evade skills very decently. The only exceptions are for ranged characters on Dragon Fights -- but that is another discussion altogether.

In general, the tank will use combat roll to avoid hard hitting attacks. Such as fire breath, fireball or that cone crystal attack behemoths does.

 

The only 2 skills I would not recommend an AI warrior to have are: Block and Slash(Is that right?) and Chargin Bull. The AI will use either until the stamina runs out.

For a tank it's enough to have War cry for guard generation. For survival, go down 1 handed + shield tree and get the defensive passives. Also grab the upgrade for War Cry for the tank. 200% armor is HUGE. Also grab Challenge. 2 taunts are better than 1!

 

For a dps just skip guard entirely and get offensive abilities + combat roll. They will manage fine with that. Avoid things as block and slash and charging bull, and your dps AI warrior won't go suicidal. 

[1G86]

For a dps just skip guard entirely and get offensive abilities + combat roll. They will manage fine with that. Avoid things as block and slash and charging bull, and your dps AI warrior won't go suicidal.

I see, now I'm wondering if some of the video guides that supposedly make use of a common build for both player and AI are still viable. The ones I saw seem very well explained and their 2H Warriors (Reaver) still grab B&S and Charging Bull in the build.

[Matth85]

I see, now I'm wondering if some of the video guides that supposedly make use of a common build for both player and AI are still viable. The ones I saw seem very well explained and their 2H Warriors (Reaver) still grab B&S and Charging Bull in the build.

I'd take Block and Slash since its on the way to pommel Strike -- which is one of the best abilities a 2h warrior get. It's almost instant, hits hard, fast, low cd and cost very little stamina.

 

Charging Bull on the AI doesn't work since the AI will use it until they run out of stamina. Whereas a player Reaver could utilize it for the knockdown and free hit (Tap carging bull + Devour is the best combo a Reaver can do. High cost Devour now costs 10 stamina)

 

For a Reaver build you don't actually want anything in the 2h tree. Well, you could work your way for the armor penetration on crit passive, but othewise it's a waste. All the stamina you got are going to be used on Devour and Ring of Pain. Instead you go down 1 handed and shield tree to get the 20% defense and stamina regen per 10% health missing(powerful on a reaver!), then you go down Battlemaster for Deep Reserve, combat roll and optionally the AoE fear Horn(On the right side). In the end Charging Bull can save you some stamina, and the guard is very welcome end-game, when you got near 50% melee defense and stuff!

 

By the way, the AI plays terrible as a reaver. A reaver needs to be between 10%-50% health to do optimal, and then juggle Dragon Rage with Devour, inside of Ring of Pain, to perform. This require both stamina and health managing. The AI.. well.. they don't. They use **** on cooldown. 

[1G86]

Thanks Matth, I'm actually following your Pre-Skyhold builds now and I think they are very helpful. Could you apply those 100% towards your companions, or would you recommend picking out other skills? Given your earlier points? Also, I would like to ask your opinion on a W&S Reaver. That's what I'm planning to do atm.