1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Bladenite1481]

All of the factions have unilateral causes. They always have, they all have clearly stated "mission statements". Saying "because of their mission statement, we can never exile the Wardens" is wrong. Exiling them, or not, is a choice every Inquisitor makes on their own. Even with all the metagame knowledge at my disposal, I have done both. So your position is what, that I can, according to you, play my games wrong?

Nope. There isn't really a way to play the games wrong, this is simply my own personal speculation on the politics of the various militant groups.. And no, I don't agree that every organization is unilateral in the same way Wardens are. The Warden's cause is temporary, which is why I said like the Ghostbusters..which is funny because basically the same thing happens to them every movie. People dont need them, turn against them..they disperse and then the people need them again and beg for their return lol. But again, this for me is all amusing speculation..not an attempt to judge if someone plays their game correctly. 

[azarhal]

Cassandra disapproves? Kind of hypocritical considering her relationship with the Seekers, no?

 

Cassandra wants the Wardens as far away as possible of Corypheus for their own good, because they have shown that they can be controlled and manipulated by him already. At least, that's what she said in my playthrough when I talked to her after the quest.

[The Baconer]

Cassandra wants the Wardens as far away as possible of Corypheus for their own good, because they have shown that they can be controlled and manipulated by him already. At least, that's what she said in my playthrough when I talked to her after the quest.

 

Ok, that makes sense.

[robertthebard]

Doesn't matter if you think it's canon or not. It's what Bioware is building their world off of, whether people have read them or not. So yeah, that happened.

For the people claiming you only need one Grey Warden to end a Blight...

So, there's an Archdemon (Blighted Dragon) and a whole host of Darkspawn. Darkspawn, who can pass the Blight like it's hyper-plague, and that kills and corrupts normal people in minutes to hours. Bearing that in mind, how do you plan to get that one Grey Warden to the Archdemon, when your army is dropping like flies? They are immune to the the taint. So you need a fair bit more than one Grey Warden.

The HoF pulled it off because Protagonist Powah.

Alistair and the PC are the only Wardens in the whole group, fighting darkspawn the entire game, how many of the party members wound up ghouls? An archdemon is not simply a blighted dragon. Do you have a codex for the "kills and corrupts in minutes to hours" or is that just hyperbole to try to drive home that the only way to play the game is the way you say? I mean, really, if you want to use Origins as an example, you can cure the Mabari with an ointment, and it ingested the blood, and maybe some other tissue too. Wait, I get it, we have to pretend like we don't know that kind of stuff because then your argument might seem to be a bit invalid, right?

[BuddyL0ve]

Alistair and the PC are the only Wardens in the whole group, fighting darkspawn the entire game, how many of the party members wound up ghouls? An archdemon is not simply a blighted dragon. Do you have a codex for the "kills and corrupts in minutes to hours" or is that just hyperbole to try to drive home that the only way to play the game is the way you say? I mean, really, if you want to use Origins as an example, you can cure the Mabari with an ointment, and it ingested the blood, and maybe some other tissue too. Wait, I get it, we have to pretend like we don't know that kind of stuff because then your argument might seem to be a bit invalid, right?

"Territory conquered by the darkspawn becomes diseased, a rotting place of twisted creatures infected by the Blight. Those who come in contact with darkspawn blood or their taint often become diseased themselves, becoming ghouls. Once the taint progresses enough, the darkspawn recognize them as their own kind and ghouls can sense darkspawn. Such people show signs of insanity and schizophrenia and usually work for the darkspawn in order to craft their weapons and armor, while females are typically kept alive in order to morph them into broodmothers to expand the horde further."

From the Wiki. Also, the Codex entries for Ogres and Ghouls cite this. Aveline's husband Wesley is infected with the Taint and is dying within an hour of contracting it in the opening of DA2. One of Branka's party in the Deep Roads is a ghoul, while the rest are made broodmothers. Rukt is a ghoul in the Deep Roads as well. Darkspawn blood is consistently referred to as "poison". In the Dalish Elf origin you are recruited into the Wardens because you have become infected with the taint and will die otherwise.

The only reason your party in Origins gets a pass is Script Immunity, not due to any in-game established lore. By all rights yes, they should have been tainted at least somewhere along the way, with as much blood spatter as was flying about, but kinda makes for a short game when all but one companion gets the Taint and either goes nuts or dies after one or two fights. Thus, Protagonist Power.

[robertthebard]

"Territory conquered by the darkspawn becomes diseased, a rotting place of twisted creatures infected by the Blight. Those who come in contact with darkspawn blood or their taint often become diseased themselves, becoming ghouls. Once the taint progresses enough, the darkspawn recognize them as their own kind and ghouls can sense darkspawn. Such people show signs of insanity and schizophrenia and usually work for the darkspawn in order to craft their weapons and armor, while females are typically kept alive in order to morph them into broodmothers to expand the horde further."

From the Wiki. Also, the Codex entries for Ogres and Ghouls cite this. Aveline's husband Wesley is infected with the Taint and is dying within an hour of contracting it in the opening of DA2. One of Branka's party in the Deep Roads is a ghoul, while the rest are made broodmothers. Rukt is a ghoul in the Deep Roads as well. Darkspawn blood is consistently referred to as "poison".

I am aware, where is the "minutes or hours" thing? You know, I'm looking for the entire claim to be supported, not just the obvious stuff.

[Shahadem]

That depends how much archdemon blood you have stashed around. And considering that blight basically works like ebola, you dont want a lot of non-wardens around. Having warden or two in patrols during blight could also help with ambushes. You NEED wardens when it is blight. They are serious tactical advantage.

 

EDIT: It also, looks like, Venatori already found one archdemon.

 

Yes that's the other problem with the Grey Warden concept. Since you can only make as many Grey Wardens as you Arch demon blood lying around, you should never have a large Grey Warden hanging around when there isn't a blight. You should be preserving the Archdemon blood for when there is a blood and you need a large number of Grey Wardens. Keeping a large number of Grey Wardens around when there is no blight wastes Archdemon blood.

[BroBear Berbil]

There was risk in making those choices but the risk payed off in the end.

 

Doesn't it always?

 

I find it to be a really big failing on the part of the writing team that there was no consequence for making the "good" choice; that Corypheus never used his considerable power over the Wardens to turn them against you. It's not that he couldn't. Why wouldn't he use every advantage at his disposal to defeat you?

 

Answer: They just didn't write it.

 

I can only assume they didn't write it because players can't handle consequences, so the story suffers for it.

[robertthebard]

Doesn't it always?
 
I find it to be a really big failing on the part of the writing team that there was no consequence for making the "good" choice; that Corypheus never used his considerable power over the Wardens to turn them against you. It's not that he couldn't. Why wouldn't he use every advantage at his disposal to defeat you?
 
Answer: They just didn't write it.
 
I can only assume they didn't write it because players can't handle consequences, so the story suffers for it.

So they should have forced you to simply execute the Wardens, since this scene takes place immediately after you get them out from under Cory's influence?

[BuddyL0ve]

I am aware, where is the "minutes or hours" thing? You know, I'm looking for the entire claim to be supported, not just the obvious stuff.

Aveline's hubby dying off in DA2. Duncan being surprised your Dalish elf isn't already dying when you meet. The village of Crestwood during the Blight, and it's massively-spreading Taint plague.

[Dragoonlordz]

Doesn't it always?

 

I find it to be a really big failing on the part of the writing team that there was no consequence for making the "good" choice; that Corypheus never used his considerable power over the Wardens to turn them against you. It's not that he couldn't. Why wouldn't he use every advantage at his disposal to defeat you?

 

Answer: They just didn't write it.

 

I can only assume they didn't write it because players can't handle consequences, so the story suffers for it.

 

The writers can write anything, they could of wrote a giant nug wiped out Theda's but they didn't. We can only make choices based on what they did write not what they could of written, what they could have written instead of what they actually did has no baring on this discussion really. The whole why did you not exile the wardens...because the writers never wrote something else does not apply in this case.

[robertthebard]

Aveline's hubby dying off in DA2. Duncan being surprised your Dalish elf isn't already dying when you meet. The village of Crestwood during the Blight, and it's massively-spreading Taint plague.

How long had Aveline and Wesley been fighting Darkspawn?

What you got through the Eluvian was more than what you would have gotten from simply fighting darkspawn, isn't that why Duncan had to destroy it?

How massive was it, really? I mean, the reality is, do we even know that it was there at all? All we really have is the word of the guy that drowned half the town.

Come on man, I need the codex entry that says it can corrupt you in minutes or hours. You made the claim based on something, tell me this isn't the whole of your evidence. You're using this to justify that I played my game wrong, I'd expect you to have some heavy evidence, not some speculation.

[BroBear Berbil]

So they should have forced you to simply execute the Wardens, since this scene takes place immediately after you get them out from under Cory's influence?

 

Not sure where you get execution from, but he should have used them against you at an inopportune time, like at the ending. But then the ending is another issue since there's never an attack on Skyhold.

 

And you never release the Wardens from Corypheus' influence as far as I'm aware. All you do is destroy the demon through which the rest of the demon army is bound, and stop some colossal demon from entering the real world. Corypheus is still around, his calling is still around, and whether or not you banish the Wardens you still face a few at the temple of Mythal.

 

 

The writers can write anything, they could of wrote a giant nug wiped out Theda's but they didn't. We can only make choices based on what they did write not what they could of written, what they could have written instead of what they actually did has no baring on this discussion really. The whole why did you not exile the wardens...because the writers never wrote something else does not apply in this case.

 

You're using the epilogue as your rationale about why it was a good idea, in that moment, to not exile the Wardens. You're skipping x and y and going straight to z. When you make a decision you think about possible outcomes. Just because the writers didn't utilize Corypheus' power over the Wardens doesn't mean that talking about that power or risk is invalid.

 

And it's not just what they could have written. It's what they should have written. Looking at it from Corypheus' perspective, with all his losses along the way, it was an advantage he would have had to use.

[StarcloudSWG]

Actually, if you listen to what the Nightmare demon is saying and the other things you learn; the Nightmare Demon was responsible for issuing the false Calling. Corypheus just wanted the Grey Wardens under his thumb so that he had a large supply of non-Darkspawn bodies to use.

 

That's why there's still a few Grey Wardens hanging around Corypheus; he's enthralled those by this point and they're just replacement bodies for him.

[Dragoonlordz]

You're using the epilogue as your rationale about why it was a good idea, in that moment, to not exile the Wardens. You're skipping x and y and going straight to z. When you make a decision you think about possible outcomes. Just because the writers didn't utilize Corypheus' power over the Wardens doesn't mean that talking about that power or risk is invalid.

 

That's not true at all. I am not using the epilogue to justify making the choice per se, I made the choice based on rational thought at the time of the choice being presented. It felt like the right choice at the time even though there was a potential risk involved. The epilogue merely showed my choice worked out well in the end and that the risk was worth it but I never made the choice or thought it was the right choice based on the epilogue. I had not yet seen the epilogue at the time I made the choice, the epilogue had no influence on making the choice when I made it or my belief while making it that it would be the right choice to make.

[Andres Hendrix]

Yes that's the other problem with the Grey Warden concept. Since you can only make as many Grey Wardens as you Arch demon blood lying around, you should never have a large Grey Warden hanging around when there isn't a blight. You should be preserving the Archdemon blood for when there is a blood and you need a large number of Grey Wardens. Keeping a large number of Grey Wardens around when there is no blight wastes Archdemon blood.

They do perserve it, they just conscript people and then only a few in that number actualy go through the ritual. 

[BroBear Berbil]

But the only control and manipulation was really the initial triggering of the calling which sent them into a panic that they would all die and there would be no wardens left. That's not really any kind of control or manipulation once you know what it is. In fact, the very second you know that this annoying thing that you think is one thing is just some villain yanking your chain, you pretty much are immune to it beyond it's annoying.

 

Legacy. He manipulates the Wardens there. Not to mention, Anders knows he was being affected by Corypheus and still turns on you.

[DarkSpiral]

I didn't exile because there was absolutely no evidence that Corypheus was actually capable of controlling the Grey Warden's minds. The Grey Wardens trying to summon demons was simply a case of the Grey Wardens being their normal crazy selves. Duncan was just as crazy. 

 

But I didn't sacrifice the Wardens simply because this gave me more forces I could throw against my enemies without having to care about whether they lived or died.

 

I don't need them around in case there's another blight because I can always make more if I need more. This has been one of the greastest problems with the Grey Warden concept. Since you can always make more Grey Wardens, you don't actually need a large amount of Grey Wardens hanging around. You only need enough to detect an Archdemon.

This ignores the fact that incursions by the darkspawn happen all the time in various parts of the world.  Grey Wardens are best equipped to deal with the 'spawn, since they don't sicken and die from contact with darkspawn blood.

 

And before anyone mentions it, yes, I realize that the virulence of the blood hasn't ever really been addressed, aside from Wesley and possible one of the Hawke twins.  But it clearly mentioned in lore, time and again, and its been discussed on the forums many time, with devs chiming in.  Grey Wardens are the only people that can effectively fight darkspawn, without a portion of your forces contracting blight and devolving into ghouls.

I took things things into consideration when choosing not to exile the Wardens.  It was a little bit of metagaming, I suppose.  *shrug*

[Dragoonlordz]

And it's not just what they could have written. It's what they should have written. Looking at it from Corypheus' perspective, with all his losses along the way, it was an advantage he would have had to use.

 

If want control over what is written then write your own game of piece of fan fiction. Seems to me you want them to write it differently because you want additional writing which was not presented to you in game to justify a decision rather than using what was presented to make that choice. The world does not work that way, I cannot for example force the people who run the lottery to keep re-spinning the wheel until my numbers come up no matter how much I want to win it. Sometimes in life you just have to make a decision based on the only options available and this is one of those situations. They could of written Cory doing a million other things or written events in different ways but they didn't, because they did not it has no relevance to making the choice in game and remains nothing more than fan fiction.

[Andres Hendrix]

You could probably exile every guild in the game for acting like idiots. All of them have been, in one way or another, manipulated by the enemy.  The thing is you can use them to your own advantage as well, so why not do so? No companion in the game has a rational reason for exiling the Wardens. Sera and Cassandra (“boo hoo "most holy" is dead, boo hoo Varric lied about Hawke ) want them gone due to petty revenge. Both seem to lack any long-term tactical mindset, i.e. another blight, and the fact that an Archdemon is flying around in the present, and they cannot be sure if they need a Warden or not to kill it. In addition, I would bet ten sovereigns that Cassandra’s own faith and brashness could be used against her, and she could be manipulated as well. Anyone can be manipulated if the right conditions are met… Corypheus can only possess one person at a time, and as far as I can tell any mage can be controlled through blood magic.

[robertthebard]

Not sure where you get execution from, but he should have used them against you at an inopportune time, like at the ending. But then the ending is another issue since there's never an attack on Skyhold.
 
And you never release the Wardens from Corypheus' influence as far as I'm aware. All you do is destroy the demon through which the rest of the demon army is bound, and stop some colossal demon from entering the real world. Corypheus is still around, his calling is still around, and whether or not you banish the Wardens you still face a few at the temple of Mythal.

Says it right at the end of the mission, when you come back from the Fade, that the mages were released. Sorry for the snip, but this was all I wanted to address.

[DarkSpiral]

Not sure where you get execution from, but he should have used them against you at an inopportune time, like at the ending. But then the ending is another issue since there's never an attack on Skyhold.

 

And you never release the Wardens from Corypheus' influence as far as I'm aware. All you do is destroy the demon through which the rest of the demon army is bound, and stop some colossal demon from entering the real world. Corypheus is still around, his calling is still around, and whether or not you banish the Wardens you still face a few at the temple of Mythal.

 

Just a note here.  The false Calling is actually being spread by the Nightmare demon.  The spirit that may or may not be Justinia tells you that.  When you kill the Nightmare's avatar and seal the giant version away as you escape, the false Calling goes away.  That's why you never hear about it again.

 

EDIT: ninja'ed by robert.