1570 réponses à ce sujet

[EdwinLi]

Worst written choice in the game; it offered no logical middle ground.

 

Herp derp infest my ranks or you gone foeva!

 

Why not put that dungeon to use and watch them very carefully? 

 

Exiling them is great for the short term, idiotic for the long.

 

 

There is no way to win here.

 

It would be a reason to have Oghren (Since he is a Southern Warden of Ferelden) make a cameo but there is no place big enough to hold all the Southern Wardens. Plus it is already bad enough the Ferelden Wardens must suffer for the Orlais Wardens action in the choice already due to being Southern Wardens as well.

 

While the Orlais Wardens did Fed up, the Ferelden Wardens were completely unaware about what was going on in Southwest Thedas.

[EmissaryofLies]

It would be a reason to have Oghren (Since he is a Southern Warden of Ferelden) make a cameo but there is no place big enough to hold all the Southern Wardens. Plus it is already bad enough the Ferelden Wardens must suffer for the Orlais Wardens action in the choice already due to being Southern Wardens as well.

 

While the Orlais Wardens did Fed up, the Ferelden Wardens were completely unaware about what was going on in Southwest Thedas.

 

An Oghren cameo would have made up for some of that, certainly. 

 

Point taken, I just wish there had been a better way to handle the situation.

 

The Black and White solution of this very gray issue (pun intended) leaves more to be desired.

[TheLastArchivist]

There is. They were mind-controlled to think they were dying (can you hear The Calling?) at a time when a new Blight had just begun (Cory's pet flying around, hello). 

 

Push too far and anyone will become desperate enough to lend an ear even to the wildest solutions (use blood magic and a demon under your control will wipe out the Archdemon for you. Sounds good?).

[TheLastArchivist]

It's like trying to convince someone with advanced metasthasis that it MIGHT not be a good idea to undergo chemo. At this point, they'll ignore you and try anything to avoid their fate.

You see, they are in no condition to be rational. So you have to open their eyes and convince them to give up that nonsense because you had the true facts handed to you. That's the whole point.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Worst written choice in the game; it offered no logical middle ground.

 

Herp derp infest my ranks or you gone foeva!

 

Why not put that dungeon to use and watch them very carefully? 

 

Exiling them is great for the short term, idiotic for the long.

 

 

There is no way to win here.

 

Exiling them IS the middle ground.

 

"Cleansing Weisshaupt with purifying fire" would be the non-middle ground choice. 

 

Which, sadly, they decided not to implement in the game. I mean... that must be a bug, right? It's just not showing up as an option?

[Myusha123]

So. Can you imagine the Wardens plans if they succeeded however?  The Dwarves reclaim so much of the Deep Roads, no more Blights, biggest giant effing heroes in history, and considerations of magic and demons in many upper echelons. Blame Corpyshit for both the idea and the failure of execution. 

[robertthebard]

Even if you wiped them out with the War Table Missions, other Wardens can still come back to Orlais...cuz they're not exiled. Also, consider how Darkspawns can turn those they infected into ghouls, why would you give them more time to do that? Yes, exile the Wardens and one day, some day they will end the Blight, but what happen during the all that extra time it take to end it? Look at the Anderfels, it's a deserted wasteland resulted from the Blight.  The 3 games talk much of the Anderfels? Not really because there are really nothing there that are of interests. Which all resulted from the Blights overran the Nation, because it took too long to end the 1st and 2nd Blights.
 
Really, so in your game, people don't call you Herald of Andraste? You manage to get Cassandra to not spread the news that you're the Herald?

It doesn't matter what they opt to call me, all of the people in power that asked me, or even, in Val Royeaux the first time were told "I am not the Herald of Andraste". When Mother Gissele talks to me, I tell her the same thing. When Josie wants to tell people what happened in the Fade, I tell them the truth. What they choose to believe from that point on is beyond my sphere of control.

Again, you're still not getting it: Guess what? That army that marched out to meet the Darkspawn in Ostagar? They weren't all Grey Wardens. In fact, the argument has been quasi presented here that there were only 3; Duncan, Alistair and HoF. While that is wrong, regular armies are going to be marching against the darkspawn, that is the whole point of the treaties.
 
 

While I feel the people arguing you only need one warden seem to have this delusion that things go exactly as planned in war, and that one guy you really needed can't die accidentally. What are armies in the future going to have emergency warden joining field ceremonies, while the arch demon is just slaughtering them?

They're not going to have to. Again: The Grey Warden's treaties do not give them permission to turn the entire army of everyone that responds into Wardens. No matter what you do, if you have a Blight, regular every day Joes/Janes are going to be marching against the darkspawn, just like at Ostagar. Everyone really needs to fact check how Blights are combatted before thinking every single soldier that enters a war with darkspawn is a Warden. Remember the scene where Loghain's troops quit the field? There wasn't a single Warden amongst them, all "civilians". Cailan's army? Also all "civilians". Duncan's men, that we never see, are the Wardens, and Alistair and the HoF.

[atamajakki]

Why have so many people misred this choice as effectively being "disband the Wardens" when all it does is kick them out of Orlais?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why have so many people misred this choice as effectively being "disband the Wardens" when all it does is kick them out of Orlais?

The ending clearly implies the Wardens are pretty much destroyed if you exile them.

[robertthebard]

The ending clearly implies the Wardens are pretty much destroyed if you exile them.

If you mean where it states there's no communication? You get that if you keep them too.

[skotie]

They're not going to have to. Again: The Grey Warden's treaties do not give them permission to turn the entire army of everyone that responds into Wardens. No matter what you do, if you have a Blight, regular every day Joes/Janes are going to be marching against the darkspawn, just like at Ostagar. Everyone really needs to fact check how Blights are combatted before thinking every single soldier that enters a war with darkspawn is a Warden. Remember the scene where Loghain's troops quit the field? There wasn't a single Warden amongst them, all "civilians". Cailan's army? Also all "civilians". Duncan's men, that we never see, are the Wardens, and Alistair and the HoF.

So explain to me how you only need one warden, if the one warden you have died before they reached the arch demon? What then?! Your talking like I said turn the whole army into wardens! I said it's stupid to march against a dragon leading an army of darkspawn with one warden!

 

Exile them and I'm willing to bet when a Blight happens later they are still exiled, afterall darkspawn aren't a problem at the moment and they are just criminals mostly, why consider letting them return to Orlais. I'm also willing to bet people forget you actually need a damn warden to kill the arch demon for good, wouldn't be the first time would it, I seem to recall Loghain questioning weather they needed wardens at all at the landsmeet and no one seemed to have a clue if you actually did.

[robertthebard]

So explain to me how you only need one warden, if the one warden you have died before they reached the arch demon? What then?! Your talking like I said turn the whole army into wardens! I said it's stupid to march against a dragon leading an army of darkspawn with one warden!
 
Exile them and I'm willing to bet when a Blight happens later they are still exiled, afterall darkspawn aren't a problem at the moment and they are just criminals mostly, why consider letting them return to Orlais. I'm also willing to bet people forget you actually need a damn warden to kill the arch demon for good, wouldn't be the first time would it, I seem to recall Loghain questioning weather they needed wardens at all at the landsmeet and no one seemed to have a clue if you actually did.

So wait, you want to use the word of a lying traitor to support your position? Back in the day, there used to be speculation, but since he flat out admits it at Adamant, it erases all doubt. The fact is, only one Warden will strike the killing blow, and it's usually the oldest/closest to their calling, since they know it's fatal. It would be possible to get one in position, if you only have one, but the "reality" is, we have more than one. They are exiled, not dead. No matter how long it takes them to get to where ever they need to go, we're still going to be able to get one Warden to the Archdemon, once we figure out exactly where it is. In the meantime, it's business as usual, fighting the darkspawn to cull their numbers until we get a fix, then nighty night Archdemon. I get it, really I do, they are your heroes and should be above reproach. The fact is, it's up to the Inquisitor if they are or not, and that could very vary between games. I have, myself exiled them, and let them stay in consecutive play throughs. All this melodrama about the next blight? It's not going to affect my decision, one way or the other. Why? Because I actually remember how Blights are combatted.

[atamajakki]

The ending clearly implies the Wardens are pretty much destroyed if you exile them.

The no communication from Weisshaupt thing happens either way. Even if things at Adamant were a total bloodbath, the Grey Wardens in Ferelden have had ten years to regrow unobstructed and the Wardens in Tevinter/Antiva/Nevarra/Rivain have no reason to be diminished at all, as the Fifth Blight barely touched them.

[Lucrece]

I brought Blackwall to my mission and the Warden commander lady more than redeemed herself by fending off the dragon that was about to kill us and offering herself as sacrifice.

 

So, yeah, I forgave them.

[Marshal Moriarty]

I found it hard to make a judgement on this in game, because I felt the whole storyline was so ridiculous. From the panto villain Eremon, the utterly contrived storytelling device of the fake calling affecting *all* wardens, the apparent lack of knowledge about Corypheus being alive despite it being in the newspaper, and the absurdity of them thinking they could create and control a demonic army large enough to search all the Deep Roads and find the Old Gods before the darkspawn (who live down there and are always searching). The sheer geographical size of the area to cover (Bianca points out that the Deep Roads cover all of Thedas), means that this mission is just the height of unworkable idiocy. And that's before we even get to the idea of it never being a good idea to beat one evil by summoning another with a ritual you barely understand.

 

Don't the wardens ever stop to wonder why Tevinter in its heyday wasn't able to defeat all its enemies through the use of demons alone, if they really were that powerful and easy to control? Haven't they learned the lessons that pretty much every single attempt at mass demon summoning ever attempted has ended in complete disaster? Or that by sacrificing their already low numbers, they will need to summon many, many times more demons than the people they are losing?

 

Its such a stupid plan from top to bottom, that I couldn't engage with it at all. And basically every charater who talks about this plan in the game agrees - they all think its a fantastically idiotic idea, and one so utterly foolish that they can't even begin to understand how the Wardens could possibly have gone along with it. Its the same with the silly Mages questline and their 'Let's sell ourselves into Tevinter slavery - that's the way!' in that it was just so daft that I could't make an informed judgement. Because there is just no way any of this would actually happen. The whole premise was simply too silly to take seriously.

 

So in the end, I let them live. Because the game seemed to have hit the reset button on this anyway. Stroud's sacrfice and Eremon being arrested seemed to be the game saying 'The Wardens are good guys again now - tune in for next week's thrilling episode 'Mother Giselle becomes a Cannibalistic lesbian werewolf - for the good of the world! Will our hero agree with her well meaning actions?!'

 

If they're going to pull stupid storytelling stunts like this, I reserve my right not to care one way or the other.

[hwlrmnky]

Why wouldn't I? Because I want them to be useful to the Inquisition. And it pays off. In addition to their Wartable missions, a decision with Josephine gave me Inquisition points.

[skotie]

So wait, you want to use the word of a lying traitor to support your position? Back in the day, there used to be speculation, but since he flat out admits it at Adamant, it erases all doubt. The fact is, only one Warden will strike the killing blow, and it's usually the oldest/closest to their calling, since they know it's fatal. It would be possible to get one in position, if you only have one, but the "reality" is, we have more than one. They are exiled, not dead. No matter how long it takes them to get to where ever they need to go, we're still going to be able to get one Warden to the Archdemon, once we figure out exactly where it is. In the meantime, it's business as usual, fighting the darkspawn to cull their numbers until we get a fix, then nighty night Archdemon. I get it, really I do, they are your heroes and should be above reproach. The fact is, it's up to the Inquisitor if they are or not, and that could very vary between games. I have, myself exiled them, and let them stay in consecutive play throughs. All this melodrama about the next blight? It's not going to affect my decision, one way or the other. Why? Because I actually remember how Blights are combatted.

They are not my heroes who are above reproach you love to assume a ton of things about people don't you?  You may remember how to stop blights, the morons who are responsible for governing Thedas love to forget.

 

Consider that instead of how the fifth blight played out, the PC and Alistair were never saved from the Tower of Ishal, all wardens in Ferelden are dead at Ostagar, Riordan never escapes or is killed and Loghain builds an army to fight the blight. The wardens of Orlais never come to help, Loghain never understands he needed wardens and a darkspawn horde ravage's Ferelden. How much does the horde destroy? How long does this go on until wardens get word and head there to help.

 

You are asking for a similar situation to happen for Orlais by exiling them, you really are. Sorry but I see no good reason for Orlais to change their minds and allow the wardens back in the future, when the time comes they will likely be unprepared and their country will suffer as a result.

[robertthebard]

They are not my heroes who are above reproach you love to assume a ton of things about people don't you?  You may remember how to stop blights, the morons who are responsible for governing Thedas love to forget.
 
Consider that instead of how the fifth blight played out, the PC and Alistair were never saved from the Tower of Ishal, all wardens in Ferelden are dead at Ostagar, Riordan never escapes or is killed and Loghain builds an army to fight the blight. The wardens of Orlais never come to help, Loghain never understands he needed wardens and a darkspawn horde ravage's Ferelden. How much does the horde destroy? How long does this go on until wardens get word and head there to help.
 
You are asking for a similar situation to happen for Orlais by exiling them, you really are. Sorry but I see no good reason for Orlais to change their minds and allow the wardens back in the future, when the time comes they will likely be unprepared and their country will suffer as a result.

Then the Blight destroys Ferelden, and the Orlesian Wardens, who are already at the border, stop it? The only reason they weren't at Ostagar was Loghain, and they had already decided that that's what they were going to do, if they had to. Riordan tells you that. Loghain could have been as moronic as he chose, all he was accomplishing was destroying Ferelden.

[Maverick_One]

They are not my heroes who are above reproach you love to assume a ton of things about people don't you?  You may remember how to stop blights, the morons who are responsible for governing Thedas love to forget.

 

Consider that instead of how the fifth blight played out, the PC and Alistair were never saved from the Tower of Ishal, all wardens in Ferelden are dead at Ostagar, Riordan never escapes or is killed and Loghain builds an army to fight the blight. The wardens of Orlais never come to help, Loghain never understands he needed wardens and a darkspawn horde ravage's Ferelden. How much does the horde destroy? How long does this go on until wardens get word and head there to help.

 

You are asking for a similar situation to happen for Orlais by exiling them, you really are. Sorry but I see no good reason for Orlais to change their minds and allow the wardens back in the future, when the time comes they will likely be unprepared and their country will suffer as a result.

Didn't they make a DLC about what happens if there is no HoF? Doesn't the Archdemon win? skotie anybody? I seem to remember My Darkspawn character tearing through the ranks and finally killing Alistar. Does no one remember the DLC? So why do we need to consider? They already showed us.

[Gamyu]

Again, you're still not getting it: Guess what? That army that marched out to meet the Darkspawn in Ostagar? They weren't all Grey Wardens. In fact, the argument has been quasi presented here that there were only 3; Duncan, Alistair and HoF. While that is wrong, regular armies are going to be marching against the darkspawn, that is the whole point of the treaties.
 
 

They're not going to have to. Again: The Grey Warden's treaties do not give them permission to turn the entire army of everyone that responds into Wardens. No matter what you do, if you have a Blight, regular every day Joes/Janes are going to be marching against the darkspawn, just like at Ostagar. Everyone really needs to fact check how Blights are combatted before thinking every single soldier that enters a war with darkspawn is a Warden. Remember the scene where Loghain's troops quit the field? There wasn't a single Warden amongst them, all "civilians". Cailan's army? Also all "civilians". Duncan's men, that we never see, are the Wardens, and Alistair and the HoF.

 

 

Ok...feel like we're not on the same topic...

 

Let's see, there was like a dozen Wardens at that time in Ostagar because they were exiled and were just recently allowed back in, which is basically this whole discussion, exile them or allow them to stay, just in this case, Orlais. If they weren't exiled, there would have been way more Grey Wardens in that Battle. While we probably don't know the outcome with a lot more Wardens, at least Cailan's army wouldn't just get outright slaughtered like they did, and the Ogre probably would've never reach Cailan.

 

And your point on the average Joes/Janes fighting the darkspawns.  Of course people help fight darkspawns, the Grey Wardens need help because of their small numbers, which is why yes, the whole Treaties.  But your average Joes/Janes can't sense Darkspawns and are not specialized to fight Darkspawns. Take Ostagar, even with Loghain's army, it was stated that they would've still lost the battle. If your average Joes/Janes can march out and win against the Darkspawns, there wouldn't be a need for the Grey Wardens, alot of Grey Warden,  in the first place. 

 

I found it hard to make a judgement on this in game, because I felt the whole storyline was so ridiculous. From the panto villain Eremon, the utterly contrived storytelling device of the fake calling affecting *all* wardens, the apparent lack of knowledge about Corypheus being alive despite it being in the newspaper, and the absurdity of them thinking they could create and control a demonic army large enough to search all the Deep Roads and find the Old Gods before the darkspawn (who live down there and are always searching). The sheer geographical size of the area to cover (Bianca points out that the Deep Roads cover all of Thedas), means that this mission is just the height of unworkable idiocy. And that's before we even get to the idea of it never being a good idea to beat one evil by summoning another with a ritual you barely understand.

 

Don't the wardens ever stop to wonder why Tevinter in its heyday wasn't able to defeat all its enemies through the use of demons alone, if they really were that powerful and easy to control? Haven't they learned the lessons that pretty much every single attempt at mass demon summoning ever attempted has ended in complete disaster? Or that by sacrificing their already low numbers, they will need to summon many, many times more demons than the people they are losing?

 

Its such a stupid plan from top to bottom, that I couldn't engage with it at all. And basically every charater who talks about this plan in the game agrees - they all think its a fantastically idiotic idea, and one so utterly foolish that they can't even begin to understand how the Wardens could possibly have gone along with it. Its the same with the silly Mages questline and their 'Let's sell ourselves into Tevinter slavery - that's the way!' in that it was just so daft that I could't make an informed judgement. Because there is just no way any of this would actually happen. The whole premise was simply too silly to take seriously.

 

So in the end, I let them live. Because the game seemed to have hit the reset button on this anyway. Stroud's sacrfice and Eremon being arrested seemed to be the game saying 'The Wardens are good guys again now - tune in for next week's thrilling episode 'Mother Giselle becomes a Cannibalistic lesbian werewolf - for the good of the world! Will our hero agree with her well meaning actions?!'

 

If they're going to pull stupid storytelling stunts like this, I reserve my right not to care one way or the other.

 

Yep, totally agree. Adamant Plot is just so weak. 

 

Hey guys, we're all hearing the Calling at the same time.  Omg, we're freaking out, so let's just turn to blood magic to summon demons rather than investigate. Let's trust this random Tevinter Mage that arrive at such convenient timing to help with the blood magic (cuz you know, nothing bad ever come out with those 2 combine) rather than trust this senior member of our own Order. Let's also kill our own brothers and sisters-in-arms for  the blood sacrifices. Doesn't spell desperation to me...

 

Can you imagine how much shorter the main plot is if the Wardens actually investigate the problem.

[Maverick_One]

Then the Blight destroys Ferelden, and the Orlesian Wardens, who are already at the border, stop it? The only reason they weren't at Ostagar was Loghain, and they had already decided that that's what they were going to do, if they had to. Riordan tells you that. Loghain could have been as moronic as he chose, all he was accomplishing was destroying Ferelden.

How do you know? They would try certainly. They might of failed. It could of been another 200 year blight for all we know.  Just because it ended in a year instead of 200 doesn't take anything away from it. Maybe it is a testament to the HoF. I mean after all why did Flemeth choose Alistar and the HoF? Wouldn't any 2 Grey Wardens of done if there wasn't something to set The HoF and possibly Alistar apart?

[robertthebard]

Ok...feel like we're not on the same topic...
 
Let's see, there was like a dozen Wardens at that time in Ostagar because they were exiled and were just recently allowed back in, which is basically this whole discussion, exile them or allow them to stay, just in this case, Orlais. If they weren't exiled, there would have been way more Grey Wardens in that Battle. While we probably don't know the outcome with a lot more Wardens, at least Cailan's army wouldn't just get outright slaughtered like they did, and the Ogre probably would've never reach Cailan.
 
And your point on the average Joes/Janes fighting the darkspawns.  Of course people help fight darkspawns, the Grey Wardens need help because of their small numbers, which is why yes, the whole Treaties.  But your average Joes/Janes can't sense Darkspawns and are not specialized to fight Darkspawns. Take Ostagar, even with Loghain's army, it was stated that they would've still lost the battle. If your average Joes/Janes can march out and win against the Darkspawns, there wouldn't be a need for the Grey Wardens, alot of Grey Warden,  in the first place.

Care to cite where you got a dozen from? Actually, never mind, I think I know. You're pulling all your "lore" from the BSN. That's the only place, aside from the quartermaster in Haven, who also insists that Loghain wasn't a traitor, despite what Loghain himself has to say on the matter, that that information was thrown about. I know, I was in those conversations. That's the thing about actually using lore, as opposed to "Well, this is what I think".

So, Maric allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden. How long before the 5th Blight did he do that?

How many Wardens were successfully recruited from the time Maric allowed them to return, and the events in Origins?

How many Wardens were in the camp we couldn't access from Ostagar?

What difference did they make?

[Raxxman]

Well, who are more stupid?

Wardens or Cirlce mages?

Dragon Age is about smart people making stupid choices over and over till someone turns up, smacks them around a bit and goes 'IDIOT' yeah it's your character, playing grown up to the angsty teenagers.

[robertthebard]

How do you know? They would try certainly. They might of failed. It could of been another 200 year blight for all we know.  Just because it ended in a year instead of 200 doesn't take anything away from it. Maybe it is a testament to the HoF. I mean after all why did Flemeth choose Alistar and the HoF? Wouldn't any 2 Grey Wardens of done if there wasn't something to set The HoF and possibly Alistar apart?

Because if their forces weren't enough to stop the Blight after it destroyed Denerim, then the forces we exile wouldn't matter anyway, because there are less there, than what the Orlesian Wardens had at the border, along with all their troops. So I guess we're screwed no matter what, right? If we exile them, according to popular opinion, we're screwed, and if we keep them, according to you, we're screwed, because there's no way they can end a blight w/out plot armor?

[skotie]

Didn't they make a DLC about what happens if there is no HoF? Doesn't the Archdemon win? skotie anybody? I seem to remember My Darkspawn character tearing through the ranks and finally killing Alistar. Does no one remember the DLC? So why do we need to consider? They already showed us.

Maybe because I seemed to need to explain to robert that probably the best reason not to exile them is so Orlais isn't destroyed before the next blight is stopped, assuming it starts in Orlais but we can only really guess where it would start. Also darkspawn chronicles is not what I described, but yes same conclusion, Fereldan is destroyed.

 

The topic is why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens, what possibly saving an entire country isn't a good enough reason?